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RE: Angus was wrong - again

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
9 June 2007
Last activity
12 June 2007
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  1. http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=895942007

    Were the appeal judges afraid of creating a precedent where local
    authorities and landowners would require to fence areas where it is
    dangerous for people to walk when encouraged by the owners to do so?

    In everyday life the government does not allow even competent people
    to take this responsibility. For example, roofers, who are well used
    to heights are not allowed to work without roof edge protection and
    there is a host of legislation that safeguards the unsuspecting public
    from hazards.

    So why should everything change the minute one steps outside the built
    environment, especially when the area in question could be construed
    as a built environment with the provision of a path, seats and the
    cutting of grass? This is not a "wild place" like a mountain where
    people go for adventure and accept risk in what they do albeit that
    when an accident occurs they expect the taxpayer to pick up the bill.

    But isn't it surprising that no-one considered that the woman could
    have tripped where the cut grass abutted the uncut grass thus creating
    a ridge, which might have explained her fall. I think the practice of
    leaving clumped/uncut grass near the cliff edge adjacent to cut grass,
    is extremely dangerous.

    Surely if any landowners encourage the public to enter their ground by
    providing pathways and seating facilities, it should be safe for
    people of all abilities to use.

    I think the court opinion was based more on the consequences to the
    landowners than on the plight of the poor woman who fell.

    It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    support for the decision.

    Angus Macmillan
    www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
    www.killhunting.org
    www.con-servation.org.uk

    All truth passes through three stages:
    First, it is ridiculed;
    Second, it is violently opposed; and
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
    -- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

  2. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] writes

    Quoted message said:

    http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=895942007

    Were the appeal judges afraid of creating a precedent where local
    authorities and landowners would require to fence areas where it is
    dangerous for people to walk when encouraged by the owners to do so?


    The judges were following precedent and the law. Are you claiming that
    they should ignore the law?

    Quoted message said:

    In everyday life the government does not allow even competent people
    to take this responsibility. For example, roofers, who are well used
    to heights are not allowed to work without roof edge protection

    And what, exactly, do professional roofers have to do with people out
    for a walk in the countryside? Nothing, of course, just as it was
    nothing when you raised this false comparison before.

    Quoted message said:

    and
    there is a host of legislation that safeguards the unsuspecting public
    from hazards.


    But, as has been stated in this case, the public walking along the top
    of a cliff aren't "unsuspecting". Another false comparison.

    Quoted message said:

    So why should everything change the minute one steps outside the built
    environment, especially when the area in question could be construed
    as a built environment with the provision of a path, seats and the
    cutting of grass? This is not a "wild place" like a mountain where
    people go for adventure and accept risk in what they do albeit that
    when an accident occurs they expect the taxpayer to pick up the bill.

    But isn't it surprising that no-one considered that the woman could
    have tripped where the cut grass abutted the uncut grass thus creating
    a ridge, which might have explained her fall. I think the practice of
    leaving clumped/uncut grass near the cliff edge adjacent to cut grass,
    is extremely dangerous.


    Gosh, do you?

    Quoted message said:

    Surely if any landowners encourage the public to enter their ground by
    providing pathways and seating facilities, it should be safe for
    people of all abilities to use.


    It was safe under the law.

    Quoted message said:

    I think the court opinion was based more on the consequences to the
    landowners than on the plight of the poor woman who fell.


    You would. But then you've lost a court case and didn't like the
    judgement against you either.

    Quoted message said:

    It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    support for the decision.


    Ah yes, the Scotsman Comments, the resort of all kinds of people who
    rarely if ever give their qualifications for the comments they make or,
    on the frequent occasions when you post there, you never say that you
    are carrying out a vendetta against conservation organisations.

    --
    Malcolm

  3. In message <[email hidden]>, Malcolm
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    support for the decision.


    Ah yes, the Scotsman Comments, the resort of all kinds of people who
    rarely if ever give their qualifications for the comments they make or,
    on the frequent occasions when you post there, you never say that you
    are carrying out a vendetta against conservation organisations.

    Interestingly, the article says that as she got up from the bench to
    leave her personal stereo fell from her lap, then when she bent down to
    pick it up she fell.

    Are we to assume that the bench was THAT close to the edge for this to
    have occurred?
    --
    Bill Grey

  4. "Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    support for the decision.


    Ah yes, the Scotsman Comments, the resort of all kinds of people who
    rarely if ever give their qualifications for the comments they make or, on
    the frequent occasions when you post there, you never say that you are
    carrying out a vendetta against conservation organisations.

    --
    Malcolm

    When I looked at the Scotsman comments yesterday about 90% of the people
    actually supported the Court's decision.

  5. Malcolm said:


    In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] writes

    Quoted message said:

    http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=895942007

    Were the appeal judges afraid of creating a precedent where local
    authorities and landowners would require to fence areas where it is
    dangerous for people to walk when encouraged by the owners to do so?


    The judges were following precedent and the law. Are you claiming that
    they should ignore the law?

    What law are you referring to?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In everyday life the government does not allow even competent people
    to take this responsibility. For example, roofers, who are well used
    to heights are not allowed to work without roof edge protection

    And what, exactly, do professional roofers have to do with people out
    for a walk in the countryside? Nothing, of course, just as it was
    nothing when you raised this false comparison before.

    Very much. They are members of the public who can fall from heights.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and
    there is a host of legislation that safeguards the unsuspecting public
    from hazards.


    But, as has been stated in this case, the public walking along the top
    of a cliff aren't "unsuspecting". Another false comparison.

    If that's the case why do they fall?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    So why should everything change the minute one steps outside the built
    environment, especially when the area in question could be construed
    as a built environment with the provision of a path, seats and the
    cutting of grass? This is not a "wild place" like a mountain where
    people go for adventure and accept risk in what they do albeit that
    when an accident occurs they expect the taxpayer to pick up the bill.

    But isn't it surprising that no-one considered that the woman could
    have tripped where the cut grass abutted the uncut grass thus creating
    a ridge, which might have explained her fall. I think the practice of
    leaving clumped/uncut grass near the cliff edge adjacent to cut grass,
    is extremely dangerous.


    Gosh, do you?

    Absolutely! Are you now an expert on cut grass? I think that might
    be your limit :-))

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Surely if any landowners encourage the public to enter their ground by
    providing pathways and seating facilities, it should be safe for
    people of all abilities to use.


    It was safe under the law.

    Under what law? Be specific.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I think the court opinion was based more on the consequences to the
    landowners than on the plight of the poor woman who fell.


    You would. But then you've lost a court case and didn't like the
    judgement against you either.

    I stand by what I said about the Woodland Trust. It's all on Google.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    support for the decision.


    Ah yes, the Scotsman Comments, the resort of all kinds of people who
    rarely if ever give their qualifications for the comments they make or,
    on the frequent occasions when you post there, you never say that you
    are carrying out a vendetta against conservation organisations.

    So are you qualified to comment on the judgment?

    Vendetta? I merely point out that they're fakes - which they are.

    The latest fake conservation by the Woodland Trust is to send 200
    people to Skye for fundraising purposes.

    Angus Macmillan
    www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
    www.killhunting.org
    www.con-servation.org.uk

    All truth passes through three stages:
    First, it is ridiculed;
    Second, it is violently opposed; and
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
    -- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

  6. On Sat, 9 Jun 2007 23:31:09 +0100, "Michael" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    support for the decision.


    Ah yes, the Scotsman Comments, the resort of all kinds of people who
    rarely if ever give their qualifications for the comments they make or, on
    the frequent occasions when you post there, you never say that you are
    carrying out a vendetta against conservation organisations.

    --
    Malcolm

    When I looked at the Scotsman comments yesterday about 90% of the people
    actually supported the Court's decision.

    Yes, you're right! I hadn't read all the post in detail.

    But there were those who thought she had been unfairly treated.

    And there IS a distinct difference between a built and maintained
    pathway with seats to a somewhere in the wilderness. A point that
    seemed to escape the judges notice.

    Angus Macmillan
    www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
    www.killhunting.org
    www.con-servation.org.uk

    All truth passes through three stages:
    First, it is ridiculed;
    Second, it is violently opposed; and
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
    -- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

  7. In article <[email hidden]>, Michael
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:


    "Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    support for the decision.


    Ah yes, the Scotsman Comments, the resort of all kinds of people who
    rarely if ever give their qualifications for the comments they make or, on
    the frequent occasions when you post there, you never say that you are
    carrying out a vendetta against conservation organisations.

    --
    Malcolm

    When I looked at the Scotsman comments yesterday about 90% of the people
    actually supported the Court's decision.


    Indeed, but can you imagine Angus admitting this?

    --
    Malcolm

  8. In article <[email hidden]>, Bill Grey
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Malcolm
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    support for the decision.


    Ah yes, the Scotsman Comments, the resort of all kinds of people who
    rarely if ever give their qualifications for the comments they make
    or, on the frequent occasions when you post there, you never say that
    you are carrying out a vendetta against conservation organisations.

    Interestingly, the article says that as she got up from the bench to
    leave her personal stereo fell from her lap, then when she bent down to
    pick it up she fell.

    Are we to assume that the bench was THAT close to the edge for this to
    have occurred?

    Possibly, though note that she is reported to have drunk "had several
    measures of vodka", so was the cliff edge was within staggering distance
    of the bench?

    --
    Malcolm

  9. Malcolm said:


    In article <[email hidden]>, Michael
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:


    "Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    >It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    >support for the decision.
    >
    Ah yes, the Scotsman Comments, the resort of all kinds of people who
    rarely if ever give their qualifications for the comments they make or, on
    the frequent occasions when you post there, you never say that you are
    carrying out a vendetta against conservation organisations.

    --
    Malcolm

    When I looked at the Scotsman comments yesterday about 90% of the people
    actually supported the Court's decision.


    Indeed, but can you imagine Angus admitting this?

    I did, over an hour before you wrote this. :-))

    Angus Macmillan
    www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
    www.killhunting.org
    www.con-servation.org.uk

    All truth passes through three stages:
    First, it is ridiculed;
    Second, it is violently opposed; and
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
    -- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

  10. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] writes

    Quoted message said:
    Malcolm said:


    In article <[email hidden]>, Michael
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:


    "Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    >
    >
    >>It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    >>support for the decision.
    >>
    > Ah yes, the Scotsman Comments, the resort of all kinds of people who
    > rarely if ever give their qualifications for the comments they make or, on
    > the frequent occasions when you post there, you never say that you are
    > carrying out a vendetta against conservation organisations.
    >
    > --
    > Malcolm

    When I looked at the Scotsman comments yesterday about 90% of the people
    actually supported the Court's decision.


    Indeed, but can you imagine Angus admitting this?

    I did, over an hour before you wrote this. :-))


    Hmm, that's twice recently that you've failed to read something
    properly. Old age must be catching up with you :-))
    ..
    --
    Malcolm

  11. In message <[email hidden]>, Malcolm
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:


    In article <[email hidden]>, Bill Grey
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Malcolm
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    >It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    >support for the decision.
    >
    Ah yes, the Scotsman Comments, the resort of all kinds of people who
    rarely if ever give their qualifications for the comments they make
    or, on the frequent occasions when you post there, you never say that
    you are carrying out a vendetta against conservation organisations.

    Interestingly, the article says that as she got up from the bench to
    leave her personal stereo fell from her lap, then when she bent down
    to pick it up she fell.

    Are we to assume that the bench was THAT close to the edge for this to
    have occurred?

    Possibly, though note that she is reported to have drunk "had several
    measures of vodka", so was the cliff edge was within staggering
    distance of the bench?


    Indeed !
    --
    Bill Grey

  12. Malcolm said:


    In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] writes

    Quoted message said:
    Malcolm said:


    In article <[email hidden]>, Michael
    <[email hidden]> writes
    >
    >"Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >news:[email hidden]...
    >>
    >>
    >>>It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    >>>support for the decision.
    >>>
    >> Ah yes, the Scotsman Comments, the resort of all kinds of people who
    >> rarely if ever give their qualifications for the comments they make or, on
    >> the frequent occasions when you post there, you never say that you are
    >> carrying out a vendetta against conservation organisations.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Malcolm
    >
    >When I looked at the Scotsman comments yesterday about 90% of the people
    >actually supported the Court's decision.
    >
    >
    Indeed, but can you imagine Angus admitting this?

    I did, over an hour before you wrote this. :-))


    Hmm, that's twice recently that you've failed to read something
    properly. Old age must be catching up with you :-))
    .

    The thread should have been titled

    Malcolm was wrong -again.

    Angus Macmillan
    www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
    www.killhunting.org
    www.con-servation.org.uk

    All truth passes through three stages:
    First, it is ridiculed;
    Second, it is violently opposed; and
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
    -- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

  13. Malcolm said:


    In article <[email hidden]>, Bill Grey
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Malcolm
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    >It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    >support for the decision.
    >
    Ah yes, the Scotsman Comments, the resort of all kinds of people who
    rarely if ever give their qualifications for the comments they make
    or, on the frequent occasions when you post there, you never say that
    you are carrying out a vendetta against conservation organisations.

    Interestingly, the article says that as she got up from the bench to
    leave her personal stereo fell from her lap, then when she bent down to
    pick it up she fell.

    Are we to assume that the bench was THAT close to the edge for this to
    have occurred?

    Possibly, though note that she is reported to have drunk "had several
    measures of vodka", so was the cliff edge was within staggering distance
    of the bench?

    There was no indication the woman was drunk and staggering.

    Angus Macmillan
    www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
    www.killhunting.org
    www.con-servation.org.uk

    All truth passes through three stages:
    First, it is ridiculed;
    Second, it is violently opposed; and
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
    -- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

  14. Message-ID: <[email hidden]> from
    [email hidden] contained the following:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Possibly, though note that she is reported to have drunk "had several
    measures of vodka", so was the cliff edge was within staggering distance
    of the bench?

    There was no indication the woman was drunk and staggering.

    Neither you, nor anyone else is fit to comment on the judges
    adjudication because none of us is in full possession of all the facts.

    On the face of it, it is stretching the imagination to see how anyone
    could bend down to pick something up and then fall off a the edge of a
    cliff which must be at least ten feet away unless they were drunk and
    staggering. Clearly Angus' imagination has very elastic properties.

    --
    Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
    It's only Usenet, no one dies.
    My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
    Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

  15. In article <[email hidden]>, Geoff Berrow
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    Neither you, nor anyone else is fit to comment on the judges
    adjudication because none of us is in full possession of all the facts.

    Indeed.

    Quoted message said:

    On the face of it, it is stretching the imagination to see how anyone
    could bend down to pick something up and then fall off a the edge of a
    cliff which must be at least ten feet away unless they were drunk and
    staggering.

    It depends what the terrain is like between the bench and the edge.
    Falling over on even quite gently sloping ground could lead to rolling
    down the slope and perhaps over whatever is there.

    --

    Dominic Sexton

  16. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] writes

    Quoted message said:
    Malcolm said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] writes

    Quoted message said:

    On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 11:10:09 +0100, Malcolm
    <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >In article <[email hidden]>, Michael
    ><[email hidden]> writes
    >>"Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email hidden]...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    >>>>support for the decision.
    >>>>
    >>> Ah yes, the Scotsman Comments, the resort of all kinds of people who
    >>> rarely if ever give their qualifications for the comments they
    >>>make or, on
    >>> the frequent occasions when you post there, you never say that you are
    >>> carrying out a vendetta against conservation organisations.
    >>>
    >>> --
    >>> Malcolm
    >>
    >>When I looked at the Scotsman comments yesterday about 90% of the people
    >>actually supported the Court's decision.
    >>
    >>
    >Indeed, but can you imagine Angus admitting this?

    I did, over an hour before you wrote this. :-))


    Hmm, that's twice recently that you've failed to read something
    properly. Old age must be catching up with you :-))
    .

    The thread should have been titled

    Malcolm was wrong -again.


    Except that I wasn't, you were - again.

    --
    Malcolm

  17. Message-ID: <[email hidden]> from Dominic Sexton
    contained the following:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On the face of it, it is stretching the imagination to see how anyone
    could bend down to pick something up and then fall off a the edge of a
    cliff which must be at least ten feet away unless they were drunk and
    staggering.

    It depends what the terrain is like between the bench and the edge.
    Falling over on even quite gently sloping ground could lead to rolling
    down the slope and perhaps over whatever is there.

    Yes, that was one of the things I would have expected the judge to take
    into account. If indeed it was a bench, ten foot slope, 80 foot drop
    then the case for a safety rail would be a lot stronger. But we just
    don't know.

    --
    Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
    It's only Usenet, no one dies.
    My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
    Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

  18. The message <[email hidden]>
    from Geoff Berrow <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On the face of it, it is stretching the imagination to see how anyone
    could bend down to pick something up and then fall off a the edge of a
    cliff which must be at least ten feet away unless they were drunk and
    staggering.

    It depends what the terrain is like between the bench and the edge.
    Falling over on even quite gently sloping ground could lead to rolling
    down the slope and perhaps over whatever is there.

    Quoted message said:

    Yes, that was one of the things I would have expected the judge to take
    into account. If indeed it was a bench, ten foot slope, 80 foot drop
    then the case for a safety rail would be a lot stronger. But we just
    don't know.

    But given that there was 6 feet of cut grass between the bench and the
    uncut grass the implication must be that the ground was fairly flat. A
    quick google brought up the original court judgement an extract of which
    is given below. It was found as a fact that the mown grass was level.

    "7. She moved a few steps from Victoria Walk onto the Sir Teollemache
    Sinclair Memorial Bench, where she sat for some time smoking two
    cigarettes and listening to music on her personal stereo.

    8. When she stood up to leave, the pursuer moved from the bench onto
    mown grass surrounding the plinth. As she stood up her personal stereo
    fell from her lap and she bent down to retrieve it.

    9. The distance from the plinth of the Sinclair seat to the long grass
    is between 1.4 and 1.8 metres. The defenders allowed long grass to grow
    near the cliffs as a deterrent to people going too close to the edge of
    the cliffs. The Sinclair Memorial Bench is closer to the cliff edge than
    any other bench adjacent to Victoria Walk.

    10. The area of mown grass around the Sinclair Memorial Bench while not
    of lawn-like quality was not undulating but level."

    --
    Roger Chapman
    Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
    89 miles as the crow flies,
    considerably more as the walker drives.

  19. Quoted message said:
    Malcolm said:


    In article <[email hidden]>, Bill Grey
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Malcolm
    <[email hidden]> writes
    >>It is noted in the Scotsman Comments that there is not that much
    >>support for the decision.
    >>
    >Ah yes, the Scotsman Comments, the resort of all kinds of people who
    >rarely if ever give their qualifications for the comments they make
    >or, on the frequent occasions when you post there, you never say that
    >you are carrying out a vendetta against conservation organisations.

    Interestingly, the article says that as she got up from the bench to
    leave her personal stereo fell from her lap, then when she bent down to
    pick it up she fell.

    Are we to assume that the bench was THAT close to the edge for this to
    have occurred?

    Possibly, though note that she is reported to have drunk "had several
    measures of vodka", so was the cliff edge was within staggering distance
    of the bench?

    There was no indication the woman was drunk and staggering.

    Given the amount Ogilvie drinks, I'd say she was just warming up!

  20. Geoff Berrow said:

    Message-ID: <[email hidden]> from
    [email hidden] contained the following:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Possibly, though note that she is reported to have drunk "had several
    measures of vodka", so was the cliff edge was within staggering distance
    of the bench?

    There was no indication the woman was drunk and staggering.

    Neither you, nor anyone else is fit to comment on the judges
    adjudication because none of us is in full possession of all the facts.

    On the face of it, it is stretching the imagination to see how anyone
    could bend down to pick something up and then fall off a the edge of a
    cliff which must be at least ten feet away unless they were drunk and
    staggering. Clearly Angus' imagination has very elastic properties.

    Bit like your ears! Can we ping them?

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