Re: AHA on margarine

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Interestingly, a web search of trans fats will yield many who think

that trans fats occur in nature. Trans fats are man made - no natural
occurring substance or food will contain these. <<

COMMENT:

You don't know what you're talking about. Try again. There are a number
of bacteria that make trans-fats, including bacteria in cow rumens,
which results in appreciable trans-fat concentrations in all dairy fat.

SBH

As the AHA's own spokesman said a few weeks ago, it's only when
cholesterol becomes oxidized that it's dangerous. Margarine is
problematic because it's low in antioxidants and high in double bonded
fatty acids. Fatty acids with double bonds can oxidize cholesterol
inside or outside your body. Butter is one of the best things you can
eat. I've been going through a stick every 3 days for a few years now,
just had an MRA done, and no signs of atherosclerosis (at age 40,
male). I also eat plenty of coconut oil, which is very high in
saturated fatty acids (92%), as well as whole dairy and dark chocolate.
It's only the products that produce a lot of free radical activity
(lipid peoxidation) that one should avoid. Boiled but not cooked while
exposed to air: eggs, shellfish, and small amounts of meat (if you
really want it). Most "processed food" these days are high in double
bonded fatty acids and low antioxidants, so that's why they're "bad,"
not because of some supposed inability to utilize "trans fatty acids."
The body has to deal with all kinds of lipids, and has no problems
doing so. Find me a scientific paper which demonstrates exactly how
the body, on a cellular/molecular level, has difficulty digesting and
using any fatty acid, and then you can make such statements. Only when
you eat too many fatty acids with double bond, too much iron, too
little antioxidants, etc., is there a problem. Most of the products
that contain what is being called "trans fats" are high in double
bonded fatty acids and low in antioxidants (if there are any at all).

<[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Trans fats are evil

now thats some scientific material to start with (did you read the
sci.med.nutrition up there?)..

Quoted message said:

and interfere with the body's utilization and
processing of fatty acids. This can lead to heart disease(due to the
body's 'healing' response of inflamed arterial walls), CVA's, r.
arthritis,

Quoted message said:

as well as cancer.

please to post any citation prooving that trans fats cause cancer in humans.

Quoted message said:

In fact, most disease states, as well as
premature aging states, can be linked directly to the consumption of
fatty acids.
Interestingly, a web search of trans fats will yield many who think
that trans fats occur in nature.

Quoted message said:

Trans fats are man made - no natural
occurring substance or food will contain these. Trans fats return big
dollars to the medical and pharmaceutical companies.

you really don't know what you are talking about.

Quoted message said:

Trans fats should be avoided like the monkey plague.

"montygram" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As the AHA's own spokesman said a few weeks ago, it's only when
cholesterol becomes oxidized that it's dangerous. Margarine is
problematic because it's low in antioxidants and high in double bonded
fatty acids. Fatty acids with double bonds can oxidize cholesterol
inside or outside your body.

1) Fatty acids with double bonds can NOT oxidize cholesterol inside or
outside the body- if you knew any basic chemistry you'd see for yourself
that this is nonsense.

This would be like saying "hydrogen kills!" and not mentioning "when you use
it to build a h-bomb".

2) Since margarine does not contain ANY cholesterol you would have to love
it.. no cholesterol- no oxidized cholesterol. And margarine has plenty of
antioxidants in it.. just look at the labels.

Quoted message said:

Butter is one of the best things you can
eat. I've been going through a stick every 3 days for a few years now,
just had an MRA done, and no signs of atherosclerosis (at age 40,
male). I also eat plenty of coconut oil, which is very high in
saturated fatty acids (92%), as well as whole dairy and dark chocolate.
It's only the products that produce a lot of free radical activity
(lipid peoxidation) that one should avoid. Boiled but not cooked while
exposed to air: eggs, shellfish, and small amounts of meat (if you
really want it). Most "processed food" these days are high in double
bonded fatty acids and low antioxidants, so that's why they're "bad,"
not because of some supposed inability to utilize "trans fatty acids."
The body has to deal with all kinds of lipids, and has no problems
doing so. Find me a scientific paper which demonstrates exactly how
the body, on a cellular/molecular level, has difficulty digesting and
using any fatty acid, and then you can make such statements. Only when
you eat too many fatty acids with double bond, too much iron, too
little antioxidants, etc., is there a problem. Most of the products
that contain what is being called "trans fats" are high in double
bonded fatty acids and low in antioxidants (if there are any at all).

[email hidden] wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Interestingly, a web search of trans fats will yield many who think
that trans fats occur in nature.

Absolutely amazing! But you, Dr. machine_nine, know better, we
presume.

What kind of newsgroup is this?

I'm just visiting.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA [email hidden]

montygram wrote:
:: [...]
:: Below, I cite an abstract that mentions the connection that you deny,
:: but more importantly, also shows that higher ingestion of fish oil is
:: not healthy, in and of itself. It just interferes with AA
:: metabolization, which gives some temporary relief, but is a killer in
:: the long run, as anyone who studied the Eskimos living on such diets
:: could tell you. The abstract also confirms my point about the gamma
:: form of vitamin E. In your beloved margarine, they use the alpha
:: form, which may prevent some lipid peroxidation, but seems to
:: enhance free radical damage that leads to heart disease. So eat up
:: that margarine. Perhaps then you'll only be around to generate there
:: obnoxious posts for a short time.
::
:: Scand J Clin Lab Invest. 2002;62(4):307-14.
::
:: Long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids may account for higher
:: low-density lipoprotein oxidation susceptibility in Lithuanian
:: compared to Swedish men.
:: [...]

In many respects the Lithuanian and Swedish diets are not comparable.
Lithuania is poor country with low intake of vegetables and fruits. On the
contrary Sweden is a rich country with a good food quality and a higher
intake of vegetables and fruits. Also the variety is greater in Sweden.

--
Juhana

If the cellular/molecular and basic chemical eveidence were not
present, I would agree with you, but there's really no other
explanation that makes sense in light of basic free radical
biochemistry. In poor areas in the West, grain products, often made
with PUFAs replace higher fruit and veg. intake, but the key is free
radical damage, which will be much greater even if both consume the
same amount of PUFAs, because fruit and veg. can have powerful
antioxidants, which you won't get with bread, cookies, etc. with few
exceptions (like chocoloate chip cookies made with dark chocolate,
perhaps, which you won't find in very poor areas).

Denham Harman, in the 1970s, proposed that free radical damage was the
key to "chronic disease" or "aging," and the evidence is now so
overwhelming that even doctors who represent the AHA are making the
claim (about heart disease). But for some reason, a number of people
who like to post on this NG seem to enjoy doubting it. It's like the
religious nuts who doubt that evolution is possible, even though cancer
is basically an evolutionary process, in which cells of the body adapt
to harsh conditions and become, for all intents and purposes, a new
species (see Duesberg's work on aneuploidy, for example). The DNA in
cancer cells is tightly wound, and more resistant to free radical
damage. This is not very complicated, and it's all in the scientific
literature. I'm not saying anything original, nor even new. I wish I
were, because then I could claim to be a nutritional version of
Einstein. All of the claims you hear about fiber, cholesterol,
phyotnutritents, eating more fruit and vegetables, green tea, etc.,
concerns stopping particular kinds of free radical damage from causing
"disease." It is the root cause, and all the other things you hear
about don't need to be "cured" with expensive drugs (with a few, very
rare, exceptions) - if you address the root cause.

montygram <[email hidden]> wrote:
: As the AHA's own spokesman said a few weeks ago, it's only when
: cholesterol becomes oxidized that it's dangerous. Margarine is
: problematic because it's low in antioxidants and high in double bonded
: fatty acids. Fatty acids with double bonds can oxidize cholesterol

That's incorrect.

Cholesterol is cholesterol. Cholesterol in the modern diet is from animal
products, or made intrinsically.

I think the trick is to _get off the bad fats_ -- as much as possible.

Dean Ornish found that he could reverse heart disease when he had people
quit animal products.

The advocating of the beef, pork and dairy industry by dieticians only
occurs b/c they sell themselves [and us] out.

Consider this: "Why do North Americans take in so much Dairy product, but
have the world's highest rate of osteoporosis?"

Why? Because Dairy is so laden with protein that it blocks Calcium uptake.
In fact, TOOMUCH protein leaches the Calcium FROM the bones.

"Experts" who are paid enuf will lie about anything.

Check out the __"Physicians Committee For Responsible Medicine"__ website.

www.pcrm.org

Emma
🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Consider this: "Why do North Americans take in so much Dairy product, but

have the world's highest rate of osteoporosis?" <<

COMMENT:
Answer: because North Americans have the highest per capita number of
DEXA bone density scanners. If you don't look for a disease, you may
well not find it. Next question?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why? Because Dairy is so laden with protein that it blocks Calcium uptake.

In fact, TOOMUCH protein leaches the Calcium FROM the bones. <<

COMMENT:

This is an urban myth, fostered by comparing one countrie's
osteoporosis rate to that of another, which is apples vs. oranges.
There are numeous studies of milk consumption vs. osteoporosis WITHIN
many countries (which control for all those between country variables,
like genetics and number of dexa scanners), and they generally find
that more milk drunk, the better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Experts" who are paid enuf will lie about anything.

Check out the __"Physicians Committee For Responsible Medicine"__
website.<<

COMMENT
Indeed. But remember that those guys get paid by special interests,
too, and would lose major donor funding if they ever said anything
positive about any animal-derived food. If they found out that farm
raised meat was bad for people, but (horrors) that an animal product
like milk was actually good for them, what would they DO? They'd have
a conflict between their philsophy and science, is what. Which do you
suppose would win?

If you want to find out, go the PCRM website and search on "fish".
You'll get article after article on the toxins in fish. It is explained
that fish aren't good for you. No, no, no. Never never never.

http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/essential_fatty_acids.html

They do inally admit that a supplement of DHA (which cannot be gotten
from land plants) is good for pregant women, but they ONLY made this
recommendation after a microalgae source of DHA came on the market very
recently. Before that, PCRM pretended that everyone can make all the
DHA they need from the ALA in land plants. In other words, before there
was a vegetarian source of DHA, pregant and nursing women didn't need
it. But as soon as one became available, suddently they do.

The whack-jobs at PCRM are PETA with an MD face. They do not care about
reality. All they care about is their animal rights agenda. You the
patient, indeed you, the human, come second.

SBH

montygram said:

If the cellular/molecular and basic chemical eveidence were not
present, I would agree with you,

So you admit that you are happy to form opinions without evidence.

Quoted message said:

but there's really no other
explanation that makes sense in light of basic free radical
biochemistry.

Which you don't seem to understand.

Quoted message said:

Denham Harman, in the 1970s, proposed that free radical damage was the
key to "chronic disease" or "aging," and the evidence is now so
overwhelming that even doctors who represent the AHA are making the
claim (about heart disease). But for some reason, a number of people
who like to post on this NG seem to enjoy doubting it.

You're imagining it. Many people challenge your ill-conceived notions
and poor understanding of biochemistry, physiology and nutrition,
though - perhaps that's what you're thinking of.

Quoted message said:

It's like the
religious nuts who doubt that evolution is possible, even though cancer
is basically an evolutionary process, in which cells of the body adapt
to harsh conditions and become, for all intents and purposes, a new
species

Oh boy, montygram's got a new crazy theory.

Quoted message said:

(see Duesberg's work on aneuploidy, for example). The DNA in
cancer cells is tightly wound, and more resistant to free radical
damage.

Care to explain that?

MattLB

Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:

You don't know what you're talking about. Try again. There are a number
of bacteria that make trans-fats, including bacteria in cow rumens,
which results in appreciable trans-fat concentrations in all dairy fat.

CLA possibly the most important.

On 11 Jun 2005 13:28:40 -0700, "montygram" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If the cellular/molecular and basic chemical eveidence were not
present, I would agree with you, but there's really no other
explanation that makes sense in light of basic free radical
biochemistry. In poor areas in the West, grain products, often made
with PUFAs replace higher fruit and veg. intake, but the key is free

Lithuania and other east-european countries having been under control
of Soviet and perused for careless production of dangerous chemicals,
has an extremely high degree of pollunation with chemicals leading to
tremendously increased oxidative stresses in living animals, btw.
humans.

No need for some PUFA explanations there. Every pollutant ever
thinkable would be present in those areas.