Re: ADHD Diagnosis Mostly Wrong: Clinic

http://www.thewest.com.au/20031204/news/general/tw-news-general-home-sto11
6596.html

ADHD diagnosis mostly wrong: clinic

By Steve Butler

UP TO 80 per cent of children suspected of having attention deficit
hyperactivity disorder were being given heavy medication before they were
assessed properly, medical clinic staff told a parliamentary inquiry yesterday.

Bentley Family Clinic staff said many children they treated had been diagnosed
wrongly and then prescribed a spiralling medication regime they did not
necessarily need.

Senior speech pathologist Amanda Styles said the clinic was treating and
assessing 40 families. Some had more than one member with ADHD or other
behavioural problems.

She was giving evidence to the Legislative Assembly standing committee on
education and health which is examining the prevalence and treatment of ADHD
among WA children.

Ms Styles said families were frustrated by a flawed diagnostic process marked
by quick assessments and immediate medication. When the children came to the
Bentley clinic for a second assessment, the diagnosis and medication was often
found to be inappropriate.

But some schools would not let the child back into class until they had been
treated with medication.

Ms Styles said the clinic always interviewed all the family members together
and the first consultation was three hours. However, staff had found it
impossible to make a definitive diagnosis in that time because of other
behavioural problems.

The only true way to pinpoint ADHD was through a diagnostic process of
eliminating other factors that could cause the behaviour.

Ms Styles and child psychology consultant Michele Larose submitted several
recommendations, including assessment of children and their families every
three months.

Ms Larose said she had grave concerns about so many children who were on heavy
medication when they came to the clinic. Many of them had forms of toxic
psychosis and did not realise how dangerous the drugs could be. Up to
three-quarters of the children were on medication for other problems.

There were too many children who were dependent on medication which had been
unnecessarily over-prescribed.

Committee chairwoman Carol Martin said that as a parent and grandparent, she
had been shocked during the two-year inquiry at testimony on how many WA
children had been diagnosed with ADHD.

Ms Martin said the committee had taken more than 70 submissions and felt for
many parents who believed they were being judged when they were trying to do
the right thing by their children.

She agreed with submissions that said WA needed better methods for diagnosing
ADHD and said the committee was determined to find and recommend them.

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.thewest.com.au/20031204/news/general/tw-news-general-home-sto11
6596.html

ADHD diagnosis mostly wrong: clinic

By Steve Butler

UP TO 80 per cent of children suspected of having attention deficit
hyperactivity disorder were being given heavy medication before they were
assessed properly, medical clinic staff told a parliamentary inquiry

yesterday.

Quoted message said:

Bentley Family Clinic staff said many children they treated had been

diagnosed

Quoted message said:

wrongly and then prescribed a spiralling medication regime they did not
necessarily need.

Senior speech pathologist Amanda Styles said the clinic was treating and
assessing 40 families. Some had more than one member with ADHD or other
behavioural problems.

She was giving evidence to the Legislative Assembly standing committee on
education and health which is examining the prevalence and treatment of

ADHD

Quoted message said:

among WA children.

Ms Styles said families were frustrated by a flawed diagnostic process

marked

Quoted message said:

by quick assessments and immediate medication. When the children came to

the

Quoted message said:

Bentley clinic for a second assessment, the diagnosis and medication was

often

Quoted message said:

found to be inappropriate.

But some schools would not let the child back into class until they had

been

Quoted message said:

treated with medication.

Ms Styles said the clinic always interviewed all the family members

together

Quoted message said:

and the first consultation was three hours. However, staff had found it
impossible to make a definitive diagnosis in that time because of other
behavioural problems.

The only true way to pinpoint ADHD was through a diagnostic process of
eliminating other factors that could cause the behaviour.

Ms Styles and child psychology consultant Michele Larose submitted several
recommendations, including assessment of children and their families every
three months.

Ms Larose said she had grave concerns about so many children who were on

heavy

Quoted message said:

medication when they came to the clinic. Many of them had forms of toxic
psychosis and did not realise how dangerous the drugs could be. Up to
three-quarters of the children were on medication for other problems.

There were too many children who were dependent on medication which had

been

Quoted message said:

unnecessarily over-prescribed.

Committee chairwoman Carol Martin said that as a parent and grandparent,

she

Quoted message said:

had been shocked during the two-year inquiry at testimony on how many WA
children had been diagnosed with ADHD.

Ms Martin said the committee had taken more than 70 submissions and felt

for

Quoted message said:

many parents who believed they were being judged when they were trying to

do

Quoted message said:

the right thing by their children.

She agreed with submissions that said WA needed better methods for

diagnosing

Quoted message said:

ADHD and said the committee was determined to find and recommend them.

Jan "thinks" that this is news. It is not. everyone is in favor of proper
diagnosis.

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:17:54 -0400, Heather James <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Proper treatment, too.

Alas, another top poster. By top posting it is difficult to understand
exactly what the above is responding to. It is better to insert your
comments directly after the comment you are addressing.

Quoted message said:

Ritalin is bad enough, itself, but I have seen even
sorse things done in the name of "treating" ADHD.

Please give your alternative to Ritalin to treat ADHD and please cite
the evidence for its efficacy. I know many parents with children with
ADHD who were quite uncontrollable in school and unable to learn. Now
on stimulants their attention is markedly improved and their grades
are going up. Side effects are often mild and can be controlled by
dosage or changing the medication.

Quoted message said:

For about 18 months, I
was a houseparent at a children's residential treatment facility. My
cottage had boys, ages 8-14. It should come as a surprise to no one that
the vast majority took some sort of medication for ADHD. Some of the kids
were on Ritalin. But many of these were Medicaid kids, and Ritalin is
expensive, and there is a special procedure necessary to be able to
prescribe it. So, the kids would be put on clonidine. Clonidine is a
blood pressure medication, rather than anything that is supposed to act on
the brain center involved in ADHD. All clonidine does is lower the kids'
blood pressure till they are feeling too lethargic to do anything BUT sit
still. We would have to take blood pressures on these kids daily, and I
would see extremely low bp's on some kids. I had a 10-year-old one day
with a bp of 70/30. THe nurse would take a look at the kids with very low
pressures, and sometimes the dosage would be lowered, but that's all.

My understanding is that while drowsiness is a common side effect of
Clonidine that it ameliorates over time. I also understand that
Clonidine is especially effective for the aggressiveness common in
some children with ADHD.

Since this is misc.health.alternative again I ask for an alternative
to this treatment. I know of many parents who tried various
alternative treatments for their children with ADHD because they did
not want to put their children on powerful stimulants or other
medication. In every case the children did not improve and were
eventually put on medication and in most cases the children did quite
well.

Aloha,

Rich

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like
[censored] in your pants because that's where your [censored] happened to be."

Jan said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: ADHD Diagnosis Mostly Wrong: Clinic
From: Heather James [email hidden]
Date: 12/5/2003 9:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Proper treatment, too. Ritalin is bad enough, itself, but I have seen
even
sorse things done in the name of "treating" ADHD. For about 18 months, I
was a houseparent at a children's residential treatment facility. My
cottage had boys, ages 8-14. It should come as a surprise to no one that
the vast majority took some sort of medication for ADHD. Some of the kids
were on Ritalin. But many of these were Medicaid kids, and Ritalin is
expensive, and there is a special procedure necessary to be able to
prescribe it. So, the kids would be put on clonidine. Clonidine is a
blood pressure medication, rather than anything that is supposed to act on
the brain center involved in ADHD. All clonidine does is lower the kids'
blood pressure till they are feeling too lethargic to do anything BUT sit
still. We would have to take blood pressures on these kids daily, and I
would see extremely low bp's on some kids. I had a 10-year-old one day
with a bp of 70/30. THe nurse would take a look at the kids with very low
pressures, and sometimes the dosage would be lowered, but that's all.

Thanks for sharing. I was the owner and director of two daycare centers
for 38 years.. Kids at age three were taking it, on request from the
parent. It is not to be given under age six. Several years ago, when I
reported this, I was called a liar among other things. Now it is well
known that is it given, and now they are trying to get it passed to give
to two year olds. Organized medicine overlooks the fact that the brain is
not fully developed. It is the fad to start drugging kids at age two.

This is insane.

Expect to be attacked by the debunkers, some of whom have their kids on
it, and brain washed beyond common sense.

Jan

I've done plenty of daycare too, as well as public school special ed, and
happen to agree with you. I have seen a FEW kids that really had a
problem. The vast majority that are given these medications should not be
on them. The youngest kid I have ever seen on Ritalin was 2. I was
teaching day care and was supposed to be taking the afterschool kids, but I
frequently ended up with this little guy, too, because he behaved better
for me than for his teacher. Not the only time I've run into that,
teaching daycare.

Markiosos2 Probertiosos2 said:

"Heather James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Proper treatment, too. Ritalin is bad enough, itself,

I see. What is your personal experience in the use of methylphenidate in
the treatment of ADHD? What bad things did methylphenidate cause?

Quoted message said:

but I have seen even
sorse things done in the name of "treating" ADHD. For about 18 months, I
was a houseparent at a children's residential treatment facility. My
cottage had boys, ages 8-14. It should come as a surprise to no one that
the vast majority took some sort of medication for ADHD.

Wrong, sweetums. It is a shock to me. ADHD rarely casues the need for
residential treatment. In fact, I know of no case where it was required
where ADHD was the sole diagnosis.

I wasn't saying it was. However, kids who end up in residential treatment
have usually picked up an ADHD diagnosis somehwere along the way, correctly
or not. Residential places are NEVER a kids first stop, and, for many of
the kids, I was dealing with, young as they were, it wasn't their first
experience such a place. As for the primary reasons for the kids being
there, I could tell you stories that you're too young to know--even if
you're 80.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Some of the kids
were on Ritalin. But many of these were Medicaid kids, and Ritalin is
expensive,

Generic methylphenidate is cheap as heck.

Quoted message said:

and there is a special procedure necessary to be able to
prescribe it.

In Missouri? You are kidding, of course. The only thing that is required
is a DEA #, and a prescription pad.

This is what I was told, when I asked about it. I was told by the nursing
staff that the doctors had to get a Ritalin number, so it was easier to put
the kids on clonidine.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, the kids would be put on clonidine. Clonidine is a
blood pressure medication, rather than anything that is supposed to act
on the brain center involved in ADHD.

How do you know that? Clonidine is used for aggression management.

Quoted message said:

All clonidine does is lower the kids'
blood pressure till they are feeling too lethargic to do anything BUT sit
still.

Its effect is dose sepcific and, at the doses used for ADHD, it does not
work like that.

That's very nice. I have seen it work just like that, over and over, in
many different kids, day in and day out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We would have to take blood pressures on these kids daily, and I
would see extremely low bp's on some kids. I had a 10-year-old one day
with a bp of 70/30.

Are you stating that it is not normal?

Quoted message said:

THe nurse would take a look at the kids with very low
pressures, and sometimes the dosage would be lowered, but that's all.

The kids I know who are prescribed it are prescribed 0.1 mg od.

The kids I was dealing with were on widely varying doses, depending on the
kid (ranging from 1 tablet, 3 times a day, to one-fourth of a tablet, twice
a day--basically a crumb, as the tablets were quite small to begin with),
and, no, I would not consider 70/30 to be a normal bp, and neither did the
nursing staff there. Sure, clonidine is used for aggression management.
Lower the kids' blood pressure till he hasn't the energy to be aggressive.
I dealt with somewhere well over 50 kids on clonidine, over the course of
18 months--and as a houseparent who was with them most of the day, most
days--in school and out, as I was a substitute teacher there, as well. Not
as a doctor who saw them once in a while.

Rich said:

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:17:54 -0400, Heather James <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Proper treatment, too.

Alas, another top poster. By top posting it is difficult to understand
exactly what the above is responding to. It is better to insert your
comments directly after the comment you are addressing.

Mea culpa.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ritalin is bad enough, itself, but I have seen even
sorse things done in the name of "treating" ADHD.

Please give your alternative to Ritalin to treat ADHD and please cite
the evidence for its efficacy. I know many parents with children with
ADHD who were quite uncontrollable in school and unable to learn. Now
on stimulants their attention is markedly improved and their grades
are going up. Side effects are often mild and can be controlled by
dosage or changing the medication.

Frankly, I can think of only a few kids, out of many, many, I have known
that were diagnosed with ADHD, and few even of those that actually had it,
that did not have something chaotic going on in their home life. Abuse,
divorce, parent or sibling seriously ill, violence between the parents,
recent death of someone the kid was close to, recent major move, etc. I
have also NEVER known an ADHD kid who did not respond well to an increase
of consistency in his life. For one of the kids I have known that did not
fit this profile, the ADHD was caused by an allergy to citric acid. If he
hadn't had any, he was fine. If you gave him pizza, or spaghetti, or
anything else that even had it as a preservative, you could count on him
bouncing off the walls an hour or so later. I've known this person for 17
years. He just got out of the army and got married. He still has problems
with citric acid. His Mom found this out by trial and error, eliminating
certain classes of food from his diet, till she found out that citric acid
was the trigger.
Yes, the side effects of Ritalin are usually mild. But they also happen to
include major problems, up to and including death, and it does happen.

http://www.ritalindeath.com/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For about 18 months, I
was a houseparent at a children's residential treatment facility. My
cottage had boys, ages 8-14. It should come as a surprise to no one that
the vast majority took some sort of medication for ADHD. Some of the kids
were on Ritalin. But many of these were Medicaid kids, and Ritalin is
expensive, and there is a special procedure necessary to be able to
prescribe it. So, the kids would be put on clonidine. Clonidine is a
blood pressure medication, rather than anything that is supposed to act on
the brain center involved in ADHD. All clonidine does is lower the kids'
blood pressure till they are feeling too lethargic to do anything BUT sit
still. We would have to take blood pressures on these kids daily, and I
would see extremely low bp's on some kids. I had a 10-year-old one day
with a bp of 70/30. THe nurse would take a look at the kids with very low
pressures, and sometimes the dosage would be lowered, but that's all.

My understanding is that while drowsiness is a common side effect of
Clonidine that it ameliorates over time. I also understand that
Clonidine is especially effective for the aggressiveness common in
some children with ADHD.

Drowsiness is not lethargy. As I said, when your blood pressure is 70/30,
you're not going to want to be aggressive, or do anything you shouldn't.
Takes too much energy. If the lethargy goes away over time, it takes
longer than a year, which is about the longest I can think of anyone having
been in my cottage. (The kids were moved between cottages, depending on
the level of supervision, counseling, etc., needed)

Quoted message said:

Since this is misc.health.alternative again I ask for an alternative
to this treatment. I know of many parents who tried various
alternative treatments for their children with ADHD because they did
not want to put their children on powerful stimulants or other
medication. In every case the children did not improve and were
eventually put on medication and in most cases the children did quite
well.

As I pointed out, sometimes food allergies are a culprit. Often, there are
things going on in the home, where an observer would say, "I don't wonder
this kid is having problems". (Let's see..Mom's on crack and involved with
the gangs. So is grandma. No dad around. Is it any wonder the kids're a
mess? Or, Kid lives in a house where Dad was chasing Mom around with the
butcher knife last night--and this is a regular event. Darn straight, the
kid can't concentrate at school. Would you be able to? Or someone has
been molesting kid, who, of course, is afraid to tell. These are extreme
examples, of course, but they are kids I have known) My mom has found, over
many years of running a day care, that the hyperactive kids do better with
MORE sleep, when most people figure they need less than other kids. And,
possibly, Ritalin may be appropriate for some. But it should be the last
resort, and the schools have no right to report parents who choose not to
put their kids on it for child abuse. Utterly consistent child rearing
helps quite a bit. A hyperactive kid has to know that, if you tell him
that they sky is going to fall, then it is GOING to fall, and he can bet
his life on it. This is how I deal with children, and the one who are
hyperactive and don't behave for, say, the other teachers in a day care
center, are the ones that I can take into a candy store with a dozen other
kids, with no problem.

"Heather James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Proper treatment, too. Ritalin is bad enough, itself,

I see. What is your personal experience in the use of methylphenidate in the
treatment of ADHD? What bad things did methylphenidate cause?

Quoted message said:

but I have seen even
sorse things done in the name of "treating" ADHD. For about 18 months, I
was a houseparent at a children's residential treatment facility. My
cottage had boys, ages 8-14. It should come as a surprise to no one that
the vast majority took some sort of medication for ADHD.

Wrong, sweetums. It is a shock to me. ADHD rarely casues the need for
residential treatment. In fact, I know of no case where it was required
where ADHD was the sole diagnosis.

Quoted message said:

Some of the kids
were on Ritalin. But many of these were Medicaid kids, and Ritalin is
expensive,

Generic methylphenidate is cheap as heck.

Quoted message said:

and there is a special procedure necessary to be able to
prescribe it.

In Missouri? You are kidding, of course. The only thing that is required is
a DEA #, and a prescription pad.

Quoted message said:

So, the kids would be put on clonidine. Clonidine is a
blood pressure medication, rather than anything that is supposed to act on
the brain center involved in ADHD.

How do you know that? Clonidine is used for aggression management.

Quoted message said:

All clonidine does is lower the kids'
blood pressure till they are feeling too lethargic to do anything BUT sit
still.

Its effect is dose sepcific and, at the doses used for ADHD, it does not
work like that.

Quoted message said:

We would have to take blood pressures on these kids daily, and I
would see extremely low bp's on some kids. I had a 10-year-old one day
with a bp of 70/30.

Are you stating that it is not normal?

Quoted message said:

THe nurse would take a look at the kids with very low
pressures, and sometimes the dosage would be lowered, but that's all.

The kids I know who are prescribed it are prescribed 0.1 mg od.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: ADHD Diagnosis Mostly Wrong: Clinic
From: Heather James [email hidden]
Date: 12/5/2003 9:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Proper treatment, too. Ritalin is bad enough, itself, but I have seen even
sorse things done in the name of "treating" ADHD. For about 18 months, I
was a houseparent at a children's residential treatment facility. My
cottage had boys, ages 8-14. It should come as a surprise to no one that
the vast majority took some sort of medication for ADHD. Some of the kids
were on Ritalin. But many of these were Medicaid kids, and Ritalin is
expensive, and there is a special procedure necessary to be able to
prescribe it. So, the kids would be put on clonidine. Clonidine is a
blood pressure medication, rather than anything that is supposed to act on
the brain center involved in ADHD. All clonidine does is lower the kids'
blood pressure till they are feeling too lethargic to do anything BUT sit
still. We would have to take blood pressures on these kids daily, and I
would see extremely low bp's on some kids. I had a 10-year-old one day
with a bp of 70/30. THe nurse would take a look at the kids with very low
pressures, and sometimes the dosage would be lowered, but that's all.

Thanks for sharing. I was the owner and director of two daycare centers for 38
years.. Kids at age three were taking it, on request from the parent. It is not
to be given under age six. Several years ago, when I reported this, I was
called a liar among other things. Now it is well known that is it given, and
now they are trying to get it passed to give to two year olds. Organized
medicine overlooks the fact that the brain is not fully developed. It is the
fad to start drugging kids at age two.

This is insane.

Expect to be attacked by the debunkers, some of whom have their kids on it, and
brain washed beyond common sense.

Jan

"Rich" <,@.> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:17:54 -0400, Heather James <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Proper treatment, too.

Alas, another top poster. By top posting it is difficult to understand
exactly what the above is responding to. It is better to insert your
comments directly after the comment you are addressing.

Quoted message said:

Ritalin is bad enough, itself, but I have seen even
sorse things done in the name of "treating" ADHD.

Please give your alternative to Ritalin to treat ADHD and please cite
the evidence for its efficacy. I know many parents with children with
ADHD who were quite uncontrollable in school and unable to learn. Now
on stimulants their attention is markedly improved and their grades
are going up. Side effects are often mild and can be controlled by
dosage or changing the medication.

Quoted message said:

For about 18 months, I
was a houseparent at a children's residential treatment facility. My
cottage had boys, ages 8-14. It should come as a surprise to no one that
the vast majority took some sort of medication for ADHD. Some of the

kids

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were on Ritalin. But many of these were Medicaid kids, and Ritalin is
expensive, and there is a special procedure necessary to be able to
prescribe it. So, the kids would be put on clonidine. Clonidine is a
blood pressure medication, rather than anything that is supposed to act

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the brain center involved in ADHD. All clonidine does is lower the kids'
blood pressure till they are feeling too lethargic to do anything BUT sit
still. We would have to take blood pressures on these kids daily, and I
would see extremely low bp's on some kids. I had a 10-year-old one day
with a bp of 70/30. THe nurse would take a look at the kids with very

low

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pressures, and sometimes the dosage would be lowered, but that's all.

My understanding is that while drowsiness is a common side effect of
Clonidine that it ameliorates over time. I also understand that
Clonidine is especially effective for the aggressiveness common in
some children with ADHD.

Since this is misc.health.alternative again I ask for an alternative
to this treatment. I know of many parents who tried various
alternative treatments for their children with ADHD because they did
not want to put their children on powerful stimulants or other
medication. In every case the children did not improve and were
eventually put on medication and in most cases the children did quite
well.

Powerful? Methylphenidate is classified as a mild CNS stimulant.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: ADHD Diagnosis Mostly Wrong: Clinic
From: Heather James [email hidden]
Date: 12/5/2003 1:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Rich said:

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:17:54 -0400, Heather James <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Proper treatment, too.

Alas, another top poster. By top posting it is difficult to understand
exactly what the above is responding to. It is better to insert your
comments directly after the comment you are addressing.

Mea culpa.

This is just another new buzz fault finding, (actally whining), by a debunker
who went back and nuked his posts. Rich isn't short on gall.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ritalin is bad enough, itself, but I have seen even

Quoted message said:

sorse things done in the name of "treating" ADHD.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Please give your alternative to Ritalin to treat ADHD and please cite
the evidence for its efficacy. I know many parents with children with
ADHD who were quite uncontrollable in school and unable to learn. Now
on stimulants their attention is markedly improved and their grades
are going up. Side effects are often mild and can be controlled by

dosage or changing the medication

Rich also pushes drugs.

Quoted message said:

Frankly, I can think of only a few kids, out of many, many, I have known
that were diagnosed with ADHD, and few even of those that actually had it,
that did not have something chaotic going on in their home life. Abuse,
divorce, parent or sibling seriously ill, violence between the parents,
recent death of someone the kid was

close to, recent major move, etc. I

Quoted message said:

have also NEVER known an ADHD kid who did not respond well to an increase
of consistency in his life. For one of the kids I have known that did not
fit this profile, the ADHD was caused by an allergy to citric acid. If he
hadn't had any, he was fine. If you gave him pizza, or spaghetti, or

anything else that even had it as a preservative, you could count on him

Quoted message said:

bouncing off the walls an hour or so later. I've known this person for 17
years. He just got out of the army and got married. He still has problems
with citric acid. His Mom found this out by trial and error, eliminating
certain classes of food from his diet, till she found out that citric acid

Quoted message said:

Yes, the side effects of Ritalin are usually mild. But they also happen to
include major problems, up to and including death, and it does happen.

http://www.ritalindeath.com/

Quoted message said:

For about 18 months, I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was a houseparent at a children's residential treatment facility. My
cottage had boys, ages 8-14. It should come as a surprise to no one that
the vast majority took some sort of medication for ADHD. Some of the kids
were on Ritalin. But many of these were Medicaid kids, and Ritalin is
expensive, and there is a special procedure necessary to be able to
prescribe it. So, the kids would be put on clonidine. Clonidine is a
blood pressure medication, rather than anything that is supposed to act on
the brain center involved in ADHD. All clonidine does is lower the kids'
blood pressure till they are feeling too lethargic to do anything BUT sit
still. We would have to take blood pressures on these kids daily, and I
would see extremely low bp's on some kids. I had a 10-year-old one day
with a bp of 70/30. THe nurse would take a look at the kids with very low
pressures, and sometimes the dosage would be lowered, but that's all.

My understanding is that while drowsiness is a common side effect of
Clonidine that it ameliorates over time. I also understand that
Clonidine is especially effective for the aggressiveness common in
some children with ADHD.

Drowsiness is not lethargy. As I said, when your blood pressure is 70/30,
you're not going to want to be aggressive, or do anything you shouldn't.
Takes too much energy. If the lethargy goes away over time, it takes
longer than a year, which is about the longest I can think of anyone having
been in my cottage. (The kids were moved between cottages, depending on
the level of supervision, counseling, etc., needed)

Quoted message said:

Since this is misc.health.alternative again I ask for an alternative
to this treatment. I know of many parents who tried various
alternative treatments for their children with ADHD because they did
not want to put their children on powerful stimulants or other
medication. In every case the children did not improve and were
eventually put on medication and in most cases the children did quite
well.

As I pointed out, sometimes food allergies are a culprit. Often, there are
things going on in the home, where an observer would say, "I don't wonder
this kid is having problems". (Let's see..Mom's on crack and involved with
the gangs. So is grandma. No dad around. Is it any wonder the kids're a
mess? Or, Kid lives in a house where Dad was chasing Mom around with the
butcher knife last night--and this is a regular event. Darn straight, the
kid can't concentrate at school. Would you be able to? Or someone has
been molesting kid, who, of course, is afraid to tell. These are extreme
examples, of course, but they are kids I have known) My mom has found, over
many years of running a day care, that the hyperactive kids do better with
MORE sleep, when most people figure they need less than other kids. And,
possibly, Ritalin may be appropriate for some. But it should be the last
resort, and the schools have no right to report parents who choose not to
put their kids on it for child abuse. Utterly consistent child rearing
helps quite a bit. A hyperactive kid has to know that, if you tell him
that they sky is going to fall, then it is GOING to fall, and he can bet
his life on it. This is how I deal with children, and the one who are
hyperactive and don't behave for, say, the other teachers in a day care
center, are the ones that I can take into a candy store with a dozen other
kids, with no problem.

Be careful with Rich, Heather, he has a history of badgering and baiting, then
he resorts to very low tactics in getting personal. In my case he used my ill
and even dead parents to belittle me.

He is also a stalker.

Jan

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: ADHD Diagnosis Mostly Wrong: Clinic
From: Heather James [email hidden]
Date: 12/5/2003 12:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Jan said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: ADHD Diagnosis Mostly Wrong: Clinic
From: Heather James [email hidden]
Date: 12/5/2003 9:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Proper treatment, too. Ritalin is bad enough, itself, but I have seen
even
sorse things done in the name of "treating" ADHD. For about 18 months, I
was a houseparent at a children's residential treatment facility. My
cottage had boys, ages 8-14. It should come as a surprise to no one that
the vast majority took some sort of medication for ADHD. Some of the kids
were on Ritalin. But many of these were Medicaid kids, and Ritalin is
expensive, and there is a special procedure necessary to be able to
prescribe it. So, the kids would be put on clonidine. Clonidine is a
blood pressure medication, rather than anything that is supposed to act on
the brain center involved in ADHD. All clonidine does is lower the kids'
blood pressure till they are feeling too lethargic to do anything BUT sit
still. We would have to take blood pressures on these kids daily, and I
would see extremely low bp's on some kids. I had a 10-year-old one day
with a bp of 70/30. THe nurse would take a look at the kids with very low
pressures, and sometimes the dosage would be lowered, but that's all.

Thanks for sharing. I was the owner and director of two daycare centers
for 38 years.. Kids at age three were taking it, on request from the
parent. It is not to be given under age six. Several years ago, when I
reported this, I was called a liar among other things. Now it is well
known that is it given, and now they are trying to get it passed to give
to two year olds. Organized medicine overlooks the fact that the brain is
not fully developed. It is the fad to start drugging kids at age two.

This is insane.

Expect to be attacked by the debunkers, some of whom have their kids on
it, and brain washed beyond common sense.

Jan

I've done plenty of daycare too, as well as public school special ed, and
happen to agree with you. I have seen a FEW kids that really had a
problem. The vast majority that are given these medications should not be
on them. The youngest kid I have ever seen on Ritalin was 2. I was
teaching day care and was supposed to be taking the afterschool kids, but I
frequently ended up with this little guy, too, because he behaved better
for me than for his teacher. Not the only time I've run into that,
teaching daycare.

Thanks again.

What I found was the medication did indeed help in the beginning, then later
the orginal behavior returned, ten fold.

My heart goes out to the parents, God knows they have a big load, but I just
don't believe in drugging young children.

Jan

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: ADHD Diagnosis Mostly Wrong: Clinic
From: Heather James [email hidden]
Date: 12/5/2003 1:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Rich said:

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:17:54 -0400, Heather James <[email hidden]>
wrote:

>Proper treatment, too.

Alas, another top poster. By top posting it is difficult to understand
exactly what the above is responding to. It is better to insert your
comments directly after the comment you are addressing.

Mea culpa.

This is just another new buzz fault finding, (actally whining), by a debunker
who went back and nuked his posts. Rich isn't short on gall.

Once again Jan intrudes on a discussion in order to make a personal
attack. Sad that.

Quoted message said:

Rich also pushes drugs.

And again.

Quoted message said:

Be careful with Rich, Heather, he has a history of badgering and baiting, then
he resorts to very low tactics in getting personal. In my case he used my ill
and even dead parents to belittle me.

He is also a stalker.

Notice that the ENTIRE post of Jan's was to make a personal attack
against me. I thought I was having a respectful discussion with
Heather.

Here are some posts made by Jan that she should reflect on:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have seen darn little in the way of civilized discussion.

Jan

Notice that Heather and I were having a civilized discussion. Jan
attempted to hijack the discussion and create problems. Sad that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In <[email hidden]>, Jan wrote:

# I see you are engaging in your hobby.
#
# Anything to divert from the subject

The subject was ADHD and not Rich. Too bad Jan cannot take her own
advice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Jan) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your insult in noted.

It is also a character weakness. Work on it.

Jan

Jan insulted me for no reason since I said nothing in this discussion
to warrant such a response. I suggest that Jan get some help to deal
with this anger which is consuming her. Anger is not good for the
health and may explain why Jan has so many health problems.

Aloha,

Rich

------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance.

"Heather James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rich wrote:

Quoted message said:

Frankly, I can think of only a few kids, out of many, many, I have known
that were diagnosed with ADHD, and few even of those that actually had it,
that did not have something chaotic going on in their home life. Abuse,
divorce, parent or sibling seriously ill, violence between the parents,
recent death of someone the kid was close to, recent major move, etc. I
have also NEVER known an ADHD kid who did not respond well to an increase
of consistency in his life.

Try to be honest, OK?

Based on your other posts, and assuming that you have been honest, the kids
you have been in contact with at ALL have some form of problems beside the
psych diagnoses. Thus, your experience is skewed.

If you do not acknowledge that, then your opinions are utterly bogus. Jan,
and the others who deny the reality of ADHD, and blame 100% of it on poor
parentling, will use your post to their evil benefit.

For one of the kids I have known that did not

Quoted message said:

fit this profile, the ADHD was caused by an allergy to citric acid. If he
hadn't had any, he was fine. If you gave him pizza, or spaghetti, or
anything else that even had it as a preservative, you could count on him
bouncing off the walls an hour or so later. I've known this person for 17
years. He just got out of the army and got married. He still has

problems

Quoted message said:

with citric acid. His Mom found this out by trial and error, eliminating
certain classes of food from his diet, till she found out that citric acid
was the trigger.
Yes, the side effects of Ritalin are usually mild. But they also happen

to

Quoted message said:

include major problems, up to and including death, and it does happen.

http://www.ritalindeath.com/

I know you are adverse to looking things up, but that has been totally
discredited by doctors, et al, who do not have a political agenda, as that
ME said. You should remember that he had been in the limelight over his
dealing with Jack the Dripper Kevorkian, and was looking to re-emerge into
the limelight.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For about 18 months, I
was a houseparent at a children's residential treatment facility. My
cottage had boys, ages 8-14. It should come as a surprise to no one

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the vast majority took some sort of medication for ADHD. Some of the

kids

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were on Ritalin. But many of these were Medicaid kids, and Ritalin is
expensive, and there is a special procedure necessary to be able to
prescribe it. So, the kids would be put on clonidine. Clonidine is a
blood pressure medication, rather than anything that is supposed to act

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the brain center involved in ADHD. All clonidine does is lower the

kids'

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

blood pressure till they are feeling too lethargic to do anything BUT

sit

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

still. We would have to take blood pressures on these kids daily, and I
would see extremely low bp's on some kids. I had a 10-year-old one day
with a bp of 70/30. THe nurse would take a look at the kids with very

low

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pressures, and sometimes the dosage would be lowered, but that's all.

My understanding is that while drowsiness is a common side effect of
Clonidine that it ameliorates over time. I also understand that
Clonidine is especially effective for the aggressiveness common in
some children with ADHD.

Drowsiness is not lethargy. As I said, when your blood pressure is 70/30,
you're not going to want to be aggressive, or do anything you shouldn't.
Takes too much energy. If the lethargy goes away over time, it takes
longer than a year, which is about the longest I can think of anyone

having

Quoted message said:

been in my cottage. (The kids were moved between cottages, depending on
the level of supervision, counseling, etc., needed)

Quoted message said:

Since this is misc.health.alternative again I ask for an alternative
to this treatment. I know of many parents who tried various
alternative treatments for their children with ADHD because they did
not want to put their children on powerful stimulants or other
medication. In every case the children did not improve and were
eventually put on medication and in most cases the children did quite
well.

As I pointed out, sometimes food allergies are a culprit.

Wrong. If a child has behavioral problems that are a resul tof food allergy,
then the child does NOT have AD/HD. Period. Treatment with medication is
inappropriate.

Quoted message said:

Often, there are
things going on in the home, where an observer would say, "I don't wonder
this kid is having problems". (Let's see..Mom's on crack and involved

with

Quoted message said:

the gangs. So is grandma. No dad around. Is it any wonder the kids're a
mess? Or, Kid lives in a house where Dad was chasing Mom around with the
butcher knife last night--and this is a regular event. Darn straight, the
kid can't concentrate at school. Would you be able to? Or someone has
been molesting kid, who, of course, is afraid to tell. These are extreme
examples, of course, but they are kids I have known) My mom has found,

over

Quoted message said:

many years of running a day care, that the hyperactive kids do better with
MORE sleep, when most people figure they need less than other kids. And,
possibly, Ritalin may be appropriate for some. But it should be the last
resort, and the schools have no right to report parents who choose not to
put their kids on it for child abuse. Utterly consistent child rearing
helps quite a bit. A hyperactive kid has to know that, if you tell him
that they sky is going to fall, then it is GOING to fall, and he can bet
his life on it. This is how I deal with children, and the one who are
hyperactive and don't behave for, say, the other teachers in a day care
center, are the ones that I can take into a candy store with a dozen other
kids, with no problem.

What about the kid who has two parents, both loving and caring, both who
spend substantial time with him? Both parents do not do drugs, smoke, or
drink. Both parents come from loving supportive families.

And the kid stil has AD/HD.

Your comment?

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: ADHD Diagnosis Mostly Wrong: Clinic
From: Heather James [email hidden]
Date: 12/5/2003 1:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Rich said:

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:17:54 -0400, Heather James <[email hidden]>
wrote:

>Proper treatment, too.

Alas, another top poster. By top posting it is difficult to understand
exactly what the above is responding to. It is better to insert your
comments directly after the comment you are addressing.

Mea culpa.

This is just another new buzz fault finding, (actally whining), by a

debunker

Quoted message said:

who went back and nuked his posts. Rich isn't short on gall.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ritalin is bad enough, itself, but I have seen even
>sorse things done in the name of "treating" ADHD.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Please give your alternative to Ritalin to treat ADHD and please cite
the evidence for its efficacy. I know many parents with children with
ADHD who were quite uncontrollable in school and unable to learn. Now
on stimulants their attention is markedly improved and their grades
are going up. Side effects are often mild and can be controlled by

dosage or changing the medication

Rich also pushes drugs.

Quoted message said:

Frankly, I can think of only a few kids, out of many, many, I have known
that were diagnosed with ADHD, and few even of those that actually had

it,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that did not have something chaotic going on in their home life. Abuse,
divorce, parent or sibling seriously ill, violence between the parents,
recent death of someone the kid was

close to, recent major move, etc. I

Quoted message said:

have also NEVER known an ADHD kid who did not respond well to an increase
of consistency in his life. For one of the kids I have known that did

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fit this profile, the ADHD was caused by an allergy to citric acid. If

he

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hadn't had any, he was fine. If you gave him pizza, or spaghetti, or

anything else that even had it as a preservative, you could count on him

Quoted message said:

bouncing off the walls an hour or so later. I've known this person for

17

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

years. He just got out of the army and got married. He still has

problems

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with citric acid. His Mom found this out by trial and error, eliminating
certain classes of food from his diet, till she found out that citric

acid

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, the side effects of Ritalin are usually mild. But they also happen

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

include major problems, up to and including death, and it does happen.

http://www.ritalindeath.com/

Quoted message said:

For about 18 months, I

Quoted message said:

>was a houseparent at a children's residential treatment facility. My
>cottage had boys, ages 8-14. It should come as a surprise to no one

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>the vast majority took some sort of medication for ADHD. Some of the

kids

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>were on Ritalin. But many of these were Medicaid kids, and Ritalin is
>expensive, and there is a special procedure necessary to be able to
>prescribe it. So, the kids would be put on clonidine. Clonidine is a
>blood pressure medication, rather than anything that is supposed to act

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>the brain center involved in ADHD. All clonidine does is lower the

kids'

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>blood pressure till they are feeling too lethargic to do anything BUT

sit

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>still. We would have to take blood pressures on these kids daily, and

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>would see extremely low bp's on some kids. I had a 10-year-old one day
>with a bp of 70/30. THe nurse would take a look at the kids with very

low

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>pressures, and sometimes the dosage would be lowered, but that's all.

My understanding is that while drowsiness is a common side effect of
Clonidine that it ameliorates over time. I also understand that
Clonidine is especially effective for the aggressiveness common in
some children with ADHD.

Drowsiness is not lethargy. As I said, when your blood pressure is

70/30,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you're not going to want to be aggressive, or do anything you shouldn't.
Takes too much energy. If the lethargy goes away over time, it takes
longer than a year, which is about the longest I can think of anyone

having

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

been in my cottage. (The kids were moved between cottages, depending on
the level of supervision, counseling, etc., needed)

Quoted message said:

Since this is misc.health.alternative again I ask for an alternative
to this treatment. I know of many parents who tried various
alternative treatments for their children with ADHD because they did
not want to put their children on powerful stimulants or other
medication. In every case the children did not improve and were
eventually put on medication and in most cases the children did quite
well.

As I pointed out, sometimes food allergies are a culprit. Often, there

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

things going on in the home, where an observer would say, "I don't wonder
this kid is having problems". (Let's see..Mom's on crack and involved

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the gangs. So is grandma. No dad around. Is it any wonder the kids're

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mess? Or, Kid lives in a house where Dad was chasing Mom around with the
butcher knife last night--and this is a regular event. Darn straight,

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

kid can't concentrate at school. Would you be able to? Or someone has
been molesting kid, who, of course, is afraid to tell. These are extreme
examples, of course, but they are kids I have known) My mom has found,

over

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

many years of running a day care, that the hyperactive kids do better

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

MORE sleep, when most people figure they need less than other kids. And,
possibly, Ritalin may be appropriate for some. But it should be the last
resort, and the schools have no right to report parents who choose not to
put their kids on it for child abuse. Utterly consistent child rearing
helps quite a bit. A hyperactive kid has to know that, if you tell him
that they sky is going to fall, then it is GOING to fall, and he can bet
his life on it. This is how I deal with children, and the one who are
hyperactive and don't behave for, say, the other teachers in a day care
center, are the ones that I can take into a candy store with a dozen

other

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

kids, with no problem.

Be careful with Rich, Heather, he has a history of badgering and baiting,

then

Quoted message said:

he resorts to very low tactics in getting personal. In my case he used my

ill

Quoted message said:

and even dead parents to belittle me.

He is also a stalker.

Heather, here is an example of how Jan operates.

I am confident that you will make up your own mind.

"Heather James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Markiosos2 Probertiosos2 said:

"Heather James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Proper treatment, too. Ritalin is bad enough, itself,

I see. What is your personal experience in the use of methylphenidate in
the treatment of ADHD? What bad things did methylphenidate cause?

Quoted message said:

but I have seen even
sorse things done in the name of "treating" ADHD. For about 18 months,

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was a houseparent at a children's residential treatment facility. My
cottage had boys, ages 8-14. It should come as a surprise to no one

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the vast majority took some sort of medication for ADHD.

Wrong, sweetums. It is a shock to me. ADHD rarely casues the need for
residential treatment. In fact, I know of no case where it was required
where ADHD was the sole diagnosis.

I wasn't saying it was. However, kids who end up in residential treatment
have usually picked up an ADHD diagnosis somehwere along the way,

correctly

Quoted message said:

or not. Residential places are NEVER a kids first stop, and, for many of
the kids, I was dealing with, young as they were, it wasn't their first
experience such a place. As for the primary reasons for the kids being
there, I could tell you stories that you're too young to know--even if
you're 80.

You can rest assured that I am the least shockable person you will ever
meet.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Some of the kids
were on Ritalin. But many of these were Medicaid kids, and Ritalin is
expensive,

Generic methylphenidate is cheap as heck.

Quoted message said:

and there is a special procedure necessary to be able to
prescribe it.

In Missouri? You are kidding, of course. The only thing that is required
is a DEA #, and a prescription pad.

This is what I was told, when I asked about it. I was told by the nursing
staff that the doctors had to get a Ritalin number, so it was easier to

put

Quoted message said:

the kids on clonidine.

That is hogwash. The prescribing of it is under DEA Schedule II, thus
requiring a DEA #.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, the kids would be put on clonidine. Clonidine is a
blood pressure medication, rather than anything that is supposed to act
on the brain center involved in ADHD.

How do you know that? Clonidine is used for aggression management.

Quoted message said:

All clonidine does is lower the kids'
blood pressure till they are feeling too lethargic to do anything BUT

sit

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

still.

Its effect is dose sepcific and, at the doses used for ADHD, it does not
work like that.

That's very nice. I have seen it work just like that, over and over, in
many different kids, day in and day out.

Then they were overmedicated.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We would have to take blood pressures on these kids daily, and I
would see extremely low bp's on some kids. I had a 10-year-old one day
with a bp of 70/30.

Are you stating that it is not normal?

Quoted message said:

THe nurse would take a look at the kids with very low
pressures, and sometimes the dosage would be lowered, but that's all.

The kids I know who are prescribed it are prescribed 0.1 mg od.

The kids I was dealing with were on widely varying doses, depending on the
kid (ranging from 1 tablet, 3 times a day, to one-fourth of a tablet,

twice

Quoted message said:

a day--basically a crumb, as the tablets were quite small to begin with),
and, no, I would not consider 70/30 to be a normal bp, and neither did the
nursing staff there. Sure, clonidine is used for aggression management.
Lower the kids' blood pressure till he hasn't the energy to be aggressive.
I dealt with somewhere well over 50 kids on clonidine, over the course of
18 months--and as a houseparent who was with them most of the day, most
days--in school and out, as I was a substitute teacher there, as well.

Not

Quoted message said:

as a doctor who saw them once in a while.

It does not work like that for aggression management.

"Heather James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jan said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: ADHD Diagnosis Mostly Wrong: Clinic
From: Heather James [email hidden]
Date: 12/5/2003 9:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Proper treatment, too. Ritalin is bad enough, itself, but I have seen
even
sorse things done in the name of "treating" ADHD. For about 18 months,

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was a houseparent at a children's residential treatment facility. My
cottage had boys, ages 8-14. It should come as a surprise to no one

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the vast majority took some sort of medication for ADHD. Some of the

kids

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were on Ritalin. But many of these were Medicaid kids, and Ritalin is
expensive, and there is a special procedure necessary to be able to
prescribe it. So, the kids would be put on clonidine. Clonidine is a
blood pressure medication, rather than anything that is supposed to act

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the brain center involved in ADHD. All clonidine does is lower the

kids'

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

blood pressure till they are feeling too lethargic to do anything BUT

sit

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

still. We would have to take blood pressures on these kids daily, and I
would see extremely low bp's on some kids. I had a 10-year-old one day
with a bp of 70/30. THe nurse would take a look at the kids with very

low

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pressures, and sometimes the dosage would be lowered, but that's all.

Thanks for sharing. I was the owner and director of two daycare centers
for 38 years.. Kids at age three were taking it, on request from the
parent. It is not to be given under age six. Several years ago, when I
reported this, I was called a liar among other things. Now it is well
known that is it given, and now they are trying to get it passed to give
to two year olds. Organized medicine overlooks the fact that the brain

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not fully developed. It is the fad to start drugging kids at age two.

This is insane.

Expect to be attacked by the debunkers, some of whom have their kids on
it, and brain washed beyond common sense.

Jan

I've done plenty of daycare too, as well as public school special ed, and
happen to agree with you. I have seen a FEW kids that really had a
problem. The vast majority that are given these medications should not be
on them. The youngest kid I have ever seen on Ritalin was 2. I was
teaching day care and was supposed to be taking the afterschool kids, but

I

Quoted message said:

frequently ended up with this little guy, too, because he behaved better
for me than for his teacher. Not the only time I've run into that,
teaching daycare.

1:1 is always better than in a group.