Re: A Deficiency of D?

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

herbwormwood wrote:
:: On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 03:05:40 +0100, John Sankey wrote
:: (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

::: Not only are the Finnish values 8+x the USDA on average, but the
::: data simply don't correlate by any statistical test I know of. How
::: on
::: earth are we supposed to plan a diet with this kind of data
::: variance?

::: There's a lot of iodine data at Fineli as well, vs. none at the
::: USDA, and I'd be ever so grateful if I have just goofed somewhere
::: in my numbers and can get back to planning my diet.
::
:: Any chance the Finnish data relate to the lack of daylight in
:: Finland? Finns would not be getting much D from sunlight. Also
:: Finnish cattle would suffer a lack of D, maybe it would affect other
:: food products grown/raised in Finland as D is related to sun
:: exposure? Also vitamin levels in non fortified foods do vary and
:: would have to be based on averages. Here in UK we do not fortify
:: salt etc with iodine, so we can become deficient if we do not
:: consume sea products. Maybe the iodine data in Fineli are put there
:: if the Finns do not fortify, so Finns can judge how to eat healthy.
:: I have heard they are on a bit of a health kick there.

The circulating 25(OH)D levels of most Finns do raise to a good level in

the

Quoted message said:

summer time due to sun exposure. Unfortunately the public health

authorities

Quoted message said:

are now warning about the increasing risk of skin cancer. I think that it

is

Quoted message said:

an unwise recommendation as sufficient levels of circulating 25(OH)D

levels

Quoted message said:

prevent many cancers, MS disease, lower blood pressure etc. In the winter
time it is quite common to use some kind of vitamin D supplementation,
either cod liver oil or multivitamin containing 10 mcg of vitamin D. In

the

Quoted message said:

coastal areas it is also common to eat fish which contains vitamin D. Also
the milk is fortified with some vitamin D. Still the circulating 25(OH)D
levels of many people, especially elder people, are too low.

Ten mcgs of vitamin D is really much too small for optimal
health improvements in the population. The ratio of vitamin A
to D in cod liver oil is too high. If milk is fortify to the
levels it is here in the States even a quart (approximately a litre)
will only provide 5 mcg. And I'll add in a more ideal world
every 10 mcgs of D such come with perhaps a 250 to 500
mcg of K1/K2 to optimize bone quality and prevent
ectopic calcification. Understand in the late fall and winter
months, I take 100 mcg of D3 along with 10 mgs of K that I
now take all year. Public health authorities through
their prideful ignorant fear of the vitamins D and K are responsible for
elevated PTH levels, osteoporosis, osteopenia, poor
bone quality, numerous cancers, and ectopic
calcification in the arteries.

Quoted message said:

Salt is iodized in Finland and so the iodine deficiency should not be very
common here. I recall that iodine deficiency is a severe problem in some
Eastern European countries.

--
Juhana

John Que wrote:
:: "Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: herbwormwood wrote:
::::: On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 03:05:40 +0100, John Sankey wrote
::::: (in article <[email hidden]>😉:
:::
:::::: Not only are the Finnish values 8+x the USDA on average, but the
:::::: data simply don't correlate by any statistical test I know of.
:::::: How on
:::::: earth are we supposed to plan a diet with this kind of data
:::::: variance?
:::
:::::: There's a lot of iodine data at Fineli as well, vs. none at the
:::::: USDA, and I'd be ever so grateful if I have just goofed somewhere
:::::: in my numbers and can get back to planning my diet.
:::::
::::: Any chance the Finnish data relate to the lack of daylight in
::::: Finland? Finns would not be getting much D from sunlight. Also
::::: Finnish cattle would suffer a lack of D, maybe it would affect
::::: other food products grown/raised in Finland as D is related to sun
::::: exposure? Also vitamin levels in non fortified foods do vary and
::::: would have to be based on averages. Here in UK we do not fortify
::::: salt etc with iodine, so we can become deficient if we do not
::::: consume sea products. Maybe the iodine data in Fineli are put
::::: there if the Finns do not fortify, so Finns can judge how to eat
::::: healthy. I have heard they are on a bit of a health kick there.
:::
::: The circulating 25(OH)D levels of most Finns do raise to a good
::: level in the summer time due to sun exposure. Unfortunately the
::: public health authorities are now warning about the increasing risk
::: of skin cancer. I think that it is an unwise recommendation as
::: sufficient levels of circulating 25(OH)D levels prevent many
::: cancers, MS disease, lower blood pressure etc. In the winter time
::: it is quite common to use some kind of vitamin D supplementation,
::: either cod liver oil or multivitamin containing 10 mcg of vitamin
::: D. In the coastal areas it is also common to eat fish which
::: contains vitamin D. Also the milk is fortified with some vitamin D.
::: Still the circulating 25(OH)D levels of many people, especially
::: elder people, are too low.
::
:: Ten mcgs of vitamin D is really much too small for optimal
:: health improvements in the population. The ratio of vitamin A
:: to D in cod liver oil is too high. If milk is fortify to the
:: levels it is here in the States even a quart (approximately a litre)
:: will only provide 5 mcg. And I'll add in a more ideal world
:: every 10 mcgs of D such come with perhaps a 250 to 500
:: mcg of K1/K2 to optimize bone quality and prevent
:: ectopic calcification.

I agree with you. This is what I have been saying also.

:: Understand in the late fall and winter
:: months, I take 100 mcg of D3 along with 10 mgs of K that I
:: now take all year. Public health authorities through
:: their prideful ignorant fear of the vitamins D and K are responsible
:: for elevated PTH levels, osteoporosis, osteopenia, poor
:: bone quality, numerous cancers, and ectopic
:: calcification in the arteries.

I have not had my 25(OH)D levels measured, which is obviously something I
should, so I have been cautious in supplementing. Personally I supplement
with 20 mcgs of vitamin D in the winter time plus ~ 5 mcgs from food, so my
total winter time intake is around 25 mcgs, which probably gives me a level
of 65-70 nmol/l of circulating 25(OH)D. I have been cautious in
supplementing as both low and high levels (> 80 nmol/l) of 25(OH)D have been
associated with increased risk of prostate cancer.

::: Salt is iodized in Finland and so the iodine deficiency should not
::: be very common here. I recall that iodine deficiency is a severe
::: problem in some Eastern European countries.
:::
::: --
::: Juhana

--
Juhana

Juhana Harju wrote:
:: John Que wrote:

:::: Understand in the late fall and winter
:::: months, I take 100 mcg of D3 along with 10 mgs of K that I
:::: now take all year. Public health authorities through
:::: their prideful ignorant fear of the vitamins D and K are
:::: responsible for elevated PTH levels, osteoporosis, osteopenia, poor
:::: bone quality, numerous cancers, and ectopic
:::: calcification in the arteries.
::
:: I have not had my 25(OH)D levels measured, which is obviously
:: something I should, so I have been cautious in supplementing.
:: Personally I supplement with 20 mcgs of vitamin D in the winter time
:: plus ~ 5 mcgs from food, so my total winter time intake is around
:: 25 mcgs, which probably gives me a level of 65-70 nmol/l of
:: circulating 25(OH)D. I have been cautious in supplementing as both
:: low and high levels (> 80 nmol/l) of 25(OH)D have been associated
:: with increased risk of prostate cancer.

John, have you got more recent and accurate information about large doses of
vitamin D and the risk of prostate cancer?

--
Juhana

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Juhana Harju wrote:
:: John Que wrote:

:::: Understand in the late fall and winter
:::: months, I take 100 mcg of D3 along with 10 mgs of K that I
:::: now take all year. Public health authorities through
:::: their prideful ignorant fear of the vitamins D and K are
:::: responsible for elevated PTH levels, osteoporosis, osteopenia, poor
:::: bone quality, numerous cancers, and ectopic
:::: calcification in the arteries.
::
:: I have not had my 25(OH)D levels measured, which is obviously
:: something I should, so I have been cautious in supplementing.
:: Personally I supplement with 20 mcgs of vitamin D in the winter time
:: plus ~ 5 mcgs from food, so my total winter time intake is around
:: 25 mcgs, which probably gives me a level of 65-70 nmol/l of
:: circulating 25(OH)D. I have been cautious in supplementing as both
:: low and high levels (> 80 nmol/l) of 25(OH)D have been associated
:: with increased risk of prostate cancer.

John, have you got more recent and accurate information about large doses

of

Quoted message said:

vitamin D and the risk of prostate cancer?

--
Juhana

The basis of the fear concerning the higher level is a Finnish
epidemiological study. I discounted the risk as the
possible result of confounding factors such as "blue
collar" workers smoking more, eating more fried
foods, more fast foods, fewer vegetables and fruits.
Blue collar workers tend to work outside and get
more sun.

Old Brazilians of 75 year or more die at a rate
of 343 per 100,000 whereas Finns die at a rate
of 443 per 100,000 and Norwegians die at a rate
of 584 per 100,000. Brazilian tend to have serum
levels of 25 (OH) vitamin over 100 nmol/L whereas
Finns and Norwegians don't though they would
on average have better medical care.

On the other hand, for vitamin D to prevent prostate
cancer a prePADAM/"andropausal" testosterone level is needed.

The 100 mcg daily doses given to subject when compared to
15 mcg daily doses report greater well being. Both doses
did in time get the PTH levels down.

In short, my answer is no. I thought I'd seen an
epidemiological study with a different spin but
perhaps I dreamt it. I mean that seriously.

So are you wrong or am I wrong?

For bone health, the lowest number to help
improve bone density numbers in the elderly
was 20 mcgs.

It takes 100 mcg per day in lacating
women to result in breast milk with
adequate vitamin D in mothers not getting
enough spring and summer sun.

JQ

I do what I do and I maybe ...........

John Que wrote:
:: "Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: Juhana Harju wrote:
::::: John Que wrote:
:::
::::::: Understand in the late fall and winter
::::::: months, I take 100 mcg of D3 along with 10 mgs of K that I
::::::: now take all year. Public health authorities through
::::::: their prideful ignorant fear of the vitamins D and K are
::::::: responsible for elevated PTH levels, osteoporosis, osteopenia,
::::::: poor bone quality, numerous cancers, and ectopic
::::::: calcification in the arteries.
:::::
::::: I have not had my 25(OH)D levels measured, which is obviously
::::: something I should, so I have been cautious in supplementing.
::::: Personally I supplement with 20 mcgs of vitamin D in the winter
::::: time plus ~ 5 mcgs from food, so my total winter time intake is
::::: around 25 mcgs, which probably gives me a level of 65-70 nmol/l of
::::: circulating 25(OH)D. I have been cautious in supplementing as both
::::: low and high levels (> 80 nmol/l) of 25(OH)D have been associated
::::: with increased risk of prostate cancer.
:::
::: John, have you got more recent and accurate information about large
::: doses of vitamin D and the risk of prostate cancer?
:::
::: --
::: Juhana
::
:: The basis of the fear concerning the higher level is a Finnish
:: epidemiological study. I discounted the risk as the
:: possible result of confounding factors such as "blue
:: collar" workers smoking more, eating more fried
:: foods, more fast foods, fewer vegetables and fruits.
:: Blue collar workers tend to work outside and get
:: more sun.

That might be the case, yes.

:: Old Brazilians of 75 year or more die at a rate
:: of 343 per 100,000 whereas Finns die at a rate
:: of 443 per 100,000 and Norwegians die at a rate
:: of 584 per 100,000. Brazilian tend to have serum
:: levels of 25 (OH) vitamin over 100 nmol/L whereas
:: Finns and Norwegians don't though they would
:: on average have better medical care.
::
:: On the other hand, for vitamin D to prevent prostate
:: cancer a prePADAM/"andropausal" testosterone level is needed.
::
:: The 100 mcg daily doses given to subject when compared to
:: 15 mcg daily doses report greater well being. Both doses
:: did in time get the PTH levels down.

Good reason, yes.

:: In short, my answer is no. I thought I'd seen an
:: epidemiological study with a different spin but
:: perhaps I dreamt it. I mean that seriously.
::
:: So are you wrong or am I wrong?
::
:: For bone health, the lowest number to help
:: improve bone density numbers in the elderly
:: was 20 mcgs.

I remember that Heaney considered 32,5 mcgs to be the minimum for the
elderly.

:: It takes 100 mcg per day in lacating
:: women to result in breast milk with
:: adequate vitamin D in mothers not getting
:: enough spring and summer sun.
::
:: JQ
::
:: I do what I do and I maybe ...........

Thanks. So the question of ideal levels remains open and no one seems to
know for sure... One reason for my cautiousness is that I am not quite
convinced that oral vitamin D has exactly the same effect as the vitamin
produced by sunshine. Vieth claims in one study that the supplemental
vitamin D acts pretty much the same way but I have some, perhaps irrational,
suspicions about that.

--
Juhana

herbwormwood wrote:
:: On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:15:02 +0100, Juhana Harju wrote
:: (in article <[email hidden]>😉:

:: This is interesting because I have been told that vitamin D 3 is more
:: effective than vitamin D2, D2 being plant origin. Based on a recent
:: letter from my hospital, reporting opinion of metabolic bone
:: disease specialists. But I have also read that vitamin D is not a
:: vitamin at all but a hormone.

That is correct.

:: I have lupus and have been told most
:: of my life to avoid sun, I live in Northern England where we don't
:: get much sun anyway. At the age of 38 I have osteoporosis. I am
:: really looking into the D issue now and find all these confusions.
:: I have also read that it is easy to overdose on D! This group has
:: been very informative. Thanks.

You might find this site interesting.

http://www.sunarc.org/

Here is a popular article about the benefits if sunshine.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4225195.stm

However, the best is not to overdo it. Full body sun exposure for 20 minutes
three times a week in the summer time is enough for Caucasians (people with
dark skin need more). Sunbathing at noon is the best as at that time the
ratio of UV-B to UV-A is the best - again opposite to what we have been
told. Supplementing is needed in the Northern latitudes in the winter time,
also in England.

--
Juhana

Juhana Harju wrote:
:: herbwormwood wrote:
:::: On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:15:02 +0100, Juhana Harju wrote
:::: (in article <[email hidden]>😉:
::
:::: This is interesting because I have been told that vitamin D 3 is
:::: more effective than vitamin D2, D2 being plant origin. Based on a
:::: recent letter from my hospital, reporting opinion of metabolic
:::: bone disease specialists. But I have also read that vitamin D is
:::: not a vitamin at all but a hormone.
::
:: That is correct.
::
:::: I have lupus and have been told most
:::: of my life to avoid sun, I live in Northern England where we don't
:::: get much sun anyway. At the age of 38 I have osteoporosis. I am
:::: really looking into the D issue now and find all these confusions.
:::: I have also read that it is easy to overdose on D! This group has
:::: been very informative. Thanks.
::
:: You might find this site interesting.
::
:: http://www.sunarc.org/
::
:: Here is a popular article about the benefits if sunshine.
::
:: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4225195.stm
::
:: However, the best is not to overdo it. Full body sun exposure for 20
:: minutes three times a week in the summer time is enough for
:: Caucasians (people with dark skin need more). Sunbathing at noon is
:: the best as at that time the ratio of UV-B to UV-A is the best -
:: again opposite to what we have been told. Supplementing is needed in
:: the Northern latitudes in the winter time, also in England.

A site about sunshine and lupus.

http://www.mtio.com/lupus/lal_5.htm

--
Juhana