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re:10 marathons back to back

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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29 March 2005
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Doug Freese
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  1. From: "The Trailrunner" <[email hidden]>
    Subject: Re: 10 marathons back to back!?
    Date: Monday, March 28, 2005 2:15 PM

    Tom Phillips said:

    Anyway this all appears quite different from the end goal of
    a marathon or ultra race IMO, being an experience in held
    common where everyone participating shares the goals and
    rewards (i.e., anyone who finishes is a "winner," just doesn't
    get on 60 Minutes.) I'll shut up now and head out to run my
    usual pitiable and pathetic little distance 🙂 Course I have
    other weekly endurance activities and so can't afford to
    spends days or weeks in recovery.

    This brings up what is probably the biggest misconception about ultra
    runners. 99.9% of the time, including races, they run for enjoyment.
    Even during races, even the top runners usually don't redline all out.
    Most all of them would rather not win than not to be able to run for the
    next week. Racing is a way to see how you stack up against others but it
    is also a social event. I've seen some of the top runners in the US
    cruising along doing more joking and talking than "racing" in some
    events that most people consider "premiere." True, there are exceptions
    to this but the exceptions usually don't last long and they seldom win
    many events. But most of the top runners I've talked to have told me if
    given a choice, they'd rather be able to do a 7 hour 50K with their buds
    than win a few races now and not be able to run in 10 years or even not
    run the week after a win.
    --

    Amen Bill, but there is set of people that need to go watch or
    volunteer at an aid station to see what really goes on. Some things you
    can't teach. 🙂

    -Doug

  2. Dear DF,
    It is obvious you know NOTHING about ultra runners, or their ways. How
    much do you REALLY weigh? C'mon, spill it. 350? 400?

  3. "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    This brings up what is probably the biggest misconception about ultra
    runners. 99.9% of the time, including races, they run for enjoyment.
    Even during races, even the top runners usually don't redline all out.
    Most all of them would rather not win than not to be able to run for the
    next week. Racing is a way to see how you stack up against others but it
    is also a social event.

    I think that is partly a nice artifact of the fact that there's no way you
    can go hard at the beginning in longer ultras. You have to slow down to go
    longer, and this is nicely conducive to doing a lot of talking, especially
    in the beginning stages.

    I usually chat quite a bit with other runners in the first half. The other
    side of the coin is the second half, where it gradually gets harder and
    harder (if you're racing, that is). In this stage, all I manage is a
    sentence or two now and then. Despite what others joke about plodding ultra
    guys, if you're racing, you are working *very* hard and pushing pain in the
    latter stages -- sometimes for many hours.

    Quoted message said:

    I've seen some of the top runners in the US
    cruising along doing more joking and talking than "racing" in some
    events that most people consider "premiere." True, there are exceptions
    to this but the exceptions usually don't last long and they seldom win
    many events.

    Jorge Pacheco (our stud out in So. Cal) wins a *lot* of races, including the
    last several Angeles Crest 100's, and came 2nd at WS100 last year. He's a
    very nice guy (he even ran with me for 25 miles of a 30 miler once), but
    he's all business when racing.

    Quoted message said:

    But most of the top runners I've talked to have told me if
    given a choice, they'd rather be able to do a 7 hour 50K with their buds
    than win a few races now and not be able to run in 10 years or even not
    run the week after a win.

    Yeah, you gotta know how much is *too* much. I struggle with that at the
    end of my races.

    -- Dan

  4. Dan Stumpus said:


    "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    This brings up what is probably the biggest misconception about ultra
    runners. 99.9% of the time, including races, they run for enjoyment.
    Even during races, even the top runners usually don't redline all out.
    Most all of them would rather not win than not to be able to run for the
    next week. Racing is a way to see how you stack up against others but it
    is also a social event.

    I think that is partly a nice artifact of the fact that there's no way you
    can go hard at the beginning in longer ultras. You have to slow down to go
    longer, and this is nicely conducive to doing a lot of talking, especially
    in the beginning stages.

    That's exactly how I approached the first half of the NY marathon -- chatting
    with my running partner, waving to the crowd, enjoying a tour of Brooklyn,
    Queens, etc. You might as well enjoy that part of the race, because the last
    6 miles are going to be pretty tough. I suppose they're not any easier in an
    ultra (even if you run the kinder, gentler Dougie way)

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  5. Dan Stumpus said:

    Jorge Pacheco (our stud out in So. Cal) wins a *lot* of races, including the
    last several Angeles Crest 100's, and came 2nd at WS100 last year. He's a
    very nice guy (he even ran with me for 25 miles of a 30 miler once), but
    he's all business when racing.

    No doubt he's one who comes to race. But he's also relatively young and
    has only been racing for about 5 years. Hopefully, he'll still be doing
    it when he's our age! And just to jab you a little, he may have won a
    lot of SoCal races, he still ain't won anything up here in NorCal :-)

    --
    - The Trailrunner

    Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

    Trails of the Diablo Valley
    *Running - Hiking - Nature*
    http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

  6. "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    That's exactly how I approached the first half of the NY marathon --
    chatting
    with my running partner, waving to the crowd, enjoying a tour of Brooklyn,
    Queens, etc. You might as well enjoy that part of the race, because the
    last
    6 miles are going to be pretty tough. I suppose they're not any easier in
    an
    ultra (even if you run the kinder, gentler Dougie way)

    My experience (having run many all-out marathons, some in the 2:30's, etc)
    is that the integration of pain over time is much greater in a well-raced
    ultra.

    One of the nicest things about pain is that you can't really remember it :-)

    Imagine hitting the wall at a marathon but instead of 5 miles to go, you've
    got 20, and you get the idea.

    Of course, it you mentally bail out at this point, and walk/jog, chat, and
    smell the flowers, it ain't bad at all, quite enjoyable, actually.

    -- Dan

  7. "The Trailrunner" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    No doubt he's one who comes to race. But he's also relatively young and
    has only been racing for about 5 years. Hopefully, he'll still be doing it
    when he's our age! And just to jab you a little, he may have won a lot of
    SoCal races, he still ain't won anything up here in NorCal :-)

    Point taken -- I suspect that NoCal has the strongest ultra runners in the
    country -- but Jorge's still in the top few when he ventures up to "El
    Norte" (3rd at WTC, 2nd & 4th at WS, etc). I think he also beat the winner
    of the Quad Dipsea recently, if memory serves.

    See you out there,

    Dan

  8. Quoted message said:

    This brings up what is probably the biggest misconception about ultra


    runners. 99.9% of the time, including races, they run for enjoyment.
    ___

    i don't buy much of your characterization of how lovely and honky dory
    the field in an ultra is. (please don't read into any racial slur with
    my use of the word "honky"...ba da bam!).

    tell me doug. these ultras that have barriers to entry based on time.
    if you tell the RD you love running and have a fun time and all that
    other [censored] you harp.....do you get in?

    no? why not?....well darn...that's not very kind. you mean they
    discriminate based on time?

    doug...i think a hell of a lot more ultra runners are very much aware
    of time, have time goals, etc. i think you significantly overly
    paint it based on your weekend running with your flock or harem...or
    whatever it is you got going on up there.

    the very fact that ultras have qualifying times says it all....and i am
    sure the field has those times in mind. how many?...who knows....but
    more than the tiny tiny % you suggest....

  9. Quoted message said:

    tell me doug. these ultras that have barriers to entry based on time.
    if you tell the RD you love running and have a fun time and all that
    other [censored] you harp.....do you get in?

    no? why not?....well darn...that's not very kind. you mean they
    discriminate based on time?

    The only ultra I know of that has a qualifying time is Western States.
    And while they do have one standard based on time, they have another
    based only on completion of 3 50M races in a year. Since Western Sates
    has a limited field due to permit requirements, the qualifying standard
    is mostly to limit entry to those with the best chance to finish.
    Otherwise, there would be a bunch of road yahoos who think because they
    can run a 3 hour marathon, they're capable of running a 100 miles
    through the mountains. Then race fees would have to be $1000 to cover
    the rescue costs.

    --
    - The Trailrunner

    Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

    Trails of the Diablo Valley
    *Running - Hiking - Nature*
    http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

  10. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    i don't buy much of your characterization of how lovely and honky dory
    the field in an ultra is. (please don't read into any racial slur
    with
    my use of the word "honky"...ba da bam!).

    Yo Brother, I'm offended! 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    tell me doug. these ultras that have barriers to entry based on time.
    if you tell the RD you love running and have a fun time and all that
    other [censored] you harp.....do you get in?

    As Trailrunner pointed out very few have qualifications and if they do
    it is to control numbers or the race is very dangerous and they want to
    weed out potential problems. They control that with time limits. If one
    is dumb enough to spend $100+ dollars to get in a race and only gets
    through 50 miles of a 100 in the allotted time, tough titty. A sore
    point for some people is those races that have a max, having slots taken
    up by people that never intend to finish. I don't care, you pay your
    money and do what you want.

    Quoted message said:

    no? why not?....well darn...that's not very kind. you mean they
    discriminate based on time?

    They do not! It's about how big your balls are and not times.

    Quoted message said:

    doug...i think a hell of a lot more ultra runners are very much aware
    of time, have time goals, etc.

    I don't disagree there are those with time goals and I'm one of them.
    OTOH there are many that do these races once a month to enjoy the
    social scene and "jog" the race, others use one race as a training run,

    Quoted message said:

    i think you significantly overly
    paint it based on your weekend running with your flock or harem...or
    whatever it is you got going on up there.

    You have that all wrong. My weekend flock, I only wish they were a harem
    and I had some privileges, are over-achievers. These are age group
    winners with a few of them now doing ultra races.

    Quoted message said:

    the very fact that ultras have qualifying times says it all....and i
    am
    sure the field has those times in mind. how many?...who knows....but
    more than the tiny tiny % you suggest....

    See how little you know about the game? Unlike your brother Donovan
    your GED knowledge has you asking and not assuming you know the answers.
    😉

    So my question to you, why do so few black people do endurance races in
    the US. In my last race, a relatively easy 50k which is 60% virgins
    there were only three black people?

    -Doug

  11. THE EAST AFRICANS

    Quoted message said:

    So my question to you, why do so few black people do endurance races


    in
    the US.
    __

    from my observations there is a link between economic prosperity &
    endurance sports. historically (in the context of human nature), once
    locally propspering....you explore new bounderies. the king or queen
    of spain loaded up ships w/treasures and sent explorers to the other
    side of the world, within the u.s., lewis & clark packed up with stuff
    to trade and set out to 'explore".

    with that foundation, note modern day once you have enough propserity
    you can then take time to explore (or take on endurance ventures).
    look at the kind of endurance stuff richard branson, the british virgin
    guy and that wealthy american guy obsessed with flying a ballon around
    the world and non-stop air flights, etc. (steve fosse i think?)
    wealthy people that look for endurance/exploration challenges.

    mountain climbing, eco-challenge adventure sports, ironmans, etc. to
    do these things "right"...at a highly competitive level takes money &
    time. and you won't see a whole hell of a lot of people who don't
    have some measure of both in these types of endurance sports.
    globally you'll see japanese and some anglo heritage people....etc.

    most black people i know who say they would like to run.....never get
    into it...even as a hobby because they are too busy with their job &
    just trying to keep up with their family life/responsibilities. i'm
    talking about people i know that make $100K-$200k/year. i tell people
    all the time to choose health fitness over a few more dollars. there
    is a connection within american black culture between distance running
    & income level....from my observation. small example...a
    friend...black guy i went to college with...has his son running for bob
    glover on donovans running team...his son is great for his age...last
    year he was new york road runners young runner of the year in fact (15
    years old....however i can assure you his parents earn $30M-$40M per
    year. no, you don't have to make that much $ to ger your kids into
    running progams...i just don't know of any black people with average
    household incomes that run. i myself am sufficiently financially
    secure to where I invest 15 hours/week on runnning (dressing,
    stretching, running, showering, etc...the total time investment to do
    this stuff right). So when i meet other black people who are "into
    it"...I know i am meeting someone with a certain level of financial
    security and or made personal choices to not chase the $$ and moreso
    valued investing into their personal health. It's a very small number
    of black folks that fall into one of these 2 categories. as a kid i
    grew up with regina jacobs who was upper middle class, went to an
    expensive private school as a child, etc....before she went to
    stanford.

    for another view...a controversial one...a guy name john entine in 2000
    wrote the following (genetic bases argument).

    Well, then, what about East African (especially Kenyan) long-distance
    runners? Aren't they "pure" black superstars? Doesn't their incredible
    success support Entine's claims for genetic superiority of blacks
    over whites? Surprisingly, the answer is no, not at all. Once again,
    Entine's own evidence demonstrates the exact opposite of what he's
    trying to show. Without seeming to understand the significance of this
    information, Entine cites "recent gene studies" that "show Ethiopians
    with a genetic mixture of about 60 percent African and 40 percent
    Caucasian."

    In other words, East Africans are even less "black" than African
    Americans. Therefore, if we simply reverse the traditional one-drop
    rule and insist that anyone with Caucasian ancestry is Caucasian, we
    would effectively eliminate blacks from the highest ranks of virtually
    all sports. In purely scientific terms, of course, we cannot know if it
    is East Africans' black genes, white genes, or mixed genes that make
    them superior long-distance runners, but, ironically, the evidence
    provided by Entine would certainly not implicate the black side of
    their heritage. All the other blacks, Entine tells us, are even less
    successful than whites at distances over 800 meters: "runners of West
    African ancestry. . ., with rare exception, . . . do not even compete
    in elite middle distance races." The conclusion based on this
    information is unavoidable-if East Africans inherited their unique
    running ability, then it must have come from their white ancestors. So
    much for the advantage of being a "black" athlete.

    Notice that what pushes people's buttons (and presumably makes Taboo
    much more sellable) is not merely Entine's claim that physical
    prowess or athletic ability is inherited. It is his much bolder
    assertion that this inheritance is meaningfully associated with
    traditional racial categories, that our words for different groups
    actually match up with their ability to succeed at sports. But he seems
    to think that validating one theory is all that's necessary to validate
    the other. Again, he has tripped over the language. Demonstrating that
    some identifiable populations pass on their running ability to their
    children is a world away from demonstrating that black people as a
    whole have a genetic advantage over white people as a whole. Even if we
    could isolate the genes in Kenyans that translate into winning
    marathons (and Entine doubts we ever will), we could merely say that
    Kenyans, a beautiful blend of two very distinctive racial stocks, have
    a genetic advantage over non-Kenyans, a much less threatening (and
    politically much less potent) concept than the broader one. And the
    case is even weaker for Americans with West African ancestry. Even if
    those elusive "running and jumping" genes could be identified in West
    Africans themselves, the deliberate obscuring of racial admixtures in
    U.S. blacks would make it nearly impossible to determine the proportion
    of African and European ancestry associated with sports success.

    Entine VS. THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS

    But how solid is Entine's case for the inheritance of athletic
    ability- apart from questions of race? Does he at least show
    conclusively that a genetic theory explains what a sociological
    explanation cannot? The answer is no. His most extensive evidence
    relates to what he calls the "Kenyan miracle," the phenomenal success
    of long-distance runners from a tiny region in west-central Kenya,
    which, according to Entire, "represents the greatest concentration of
    raw athletic talent in the history of sports." Entire meticulously
    spells out the accomplishments of the Kalenjins, a tribe of Kenyans
    that continues to produce world class runners. He lists some
    sociological explanations that people give for the Kalenjins' dominance
    of long-distance running, but asserts that "all of the unique cultural
    factors-altitude, diet, tribal traditions, role-model worship,
    dedicated training-don't add up to the enormity of what is occurring in
    Kenya."

    Surprisingly, Entire does not say why the causes listed (especially
    when taken in concert) aren't sufficient to explain the enormity of
    what is occurring in Kenya." He also omits some obvious nongenetic
    factors, such as group pride and international acclaim, that
    undoubtedly play a strong role in Kenyans' successes.

    Making matters worse, Entine doesn't address some commonsense questions
    that need to be answered before anyone should accept a genetic
    explanation for the "Kenyan miracle" or any other group's athletic
    achievements. If athleticism has a significant genetic component, why
    don't superstars consistently come from the same families? Why, as
    Entine claims, should "the gap between Kenyans and all other runners"
    continue to increase? Isn't any change in results prima facie evidence
    that powerful nongenetic factors are operating? And if so, why are
    these factors not enough to explain any "performance gap" we come
    across?

  12. Quoted message said:

    glover on donovans running team...his son is great for his age...last
    year he was new york road runners young runner of the year in fact (15
    years old....

    Speaking of this kid, Bob reported on some of his results from his races
    this year. Last year when he joined our training group in summer, I could beat
    him. No way that's going to happen this year -- he's down to a 4:2x mile, 1:5x
    800m. His 800m time age adjusts to 1:49 (!)

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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