Rapid Rise Derailier

TJ said:

Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where
you can shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever
further ?

I think rapid rise is only available on Shimano XTR (top end MTB)
derailleurs; it improves downshifting.

But I could very well be wrong.

tony R said:

"TJ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where you

can

Quoted message said:

shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever further ?

just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know

Thanx

I think that would depend on the shifters rather than the derailleur
wouldn't it? I have a cheapo Rapid Rise derailleur with equally cheapo
shifters on a bike at the moment. I don't recall shifting more than one gear
at a time but maybe I just haven't tried. The only difference between it and
regular derailleurs, I think, is that its spring wants to pull it onto the
bigger sprockets by default,rather than the smaller ones. This always
confuses me when I have to adjust the indexing. Indeed I wouldn't be
surprised if I've got it the wrong way round again.

tony R.

Yeah, it's to do with the spring on it. Shimano's website have some
info on this, I think it's only on the top end stuff of theirs, check
the derailleur/sprocket info on the site for the kit you have, it'll say
if it's rapid rise or not on there.

Mine's Tiagra and doesn't have the RR, but I can drop up to three gears
in a single lever push on the sprockets if I so choose, so it's
definitely not referring to that.

--

Velvet

"TJ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where you

can

Quoted message said:

shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever further ?

just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know

Thanx

I think that would depend on the shifters rather than the derailleur
wouldn't it? I have a cheapo Rapid Rise derailleur with equally cheapo
shifters on a bike at the moment. I don't recall shifting more than one gear
at a time but maybe I just haven't tried. The only difference between it and
regular derailleurs, I think, is that its spring wants to pull it onto the
bigger sprockets by default,rather than the smaller ones. This always
confuses me when I have to adjust the indexing. Indeed I wouldn't be
surprised if I've got it the wrong way round again.

tony R.

tony R said:

"TJ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where you

can

Quoted message said:

shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever further ?

just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know

Thanx

I think that would depend on the shifters rather than the derailleur
wouldn't it? I have a cheapo Rapid Rise derailleur with equally cheapo
shifters on a bike at the moment. I don't recall shifting more than one gear
at a time but maybe I just haven't tried. The only difference between it and
regular derailleurs, I think, is that its spring wants to pull it onto the
bigger sprockets by default,rather than the smaller ones. This always
confuses me when I have to adjust the indexing. Indeed I wouldn't be
surprised if I've got it the wrong way round again.

I think Tony has it: see http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_r.html#rapidrise

Peter

"TJ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where you

can

Quoted message said:

shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever further ?

just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know

No, 'rapid rise' means low-normal. Ie. to change 'up' you are pushing
against the derailleur spring, changing down releases the spring tension to
pull the derailleur into a _lower_ gear. This is the opposite of normal
derailleur operation which is high-normal. With rapidrise the shift lever
action which would normally get you a higher gear gets you a lower one
instead - it reverses the action of the shifter levers and provides quicker
downshifting.

Rich

Richard Goodman said:

"TJ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where you

can

Quoted message said:

shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever further ?

just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know

No, 'rapid rise' means low-normal. Ie. to change 'up' you are pushing
against the derailleur spring, changing down releases the spring tension to
pull the derailleur into a _lower_ gear. This is the opposite of normal
derailleur operation which is high-normal. With rapidrise the shift lever
action which would normally get you a higher gear gets you a lower one
instead - it reverses the action of the shifter levers and provides quicker
downshifting.

Rich

Hmm, puzzled now.. so the time to shift is fastest if it's done by the
spring, rather than finger power, yes?

Surely you'd tend to want to change up faster, for acceleration - but
not by more than one or maybe two gears at a time, while dropping down
if it takes longer you can simply drop two instead of one+one gear - or
is it a case that a powerful rider would want to change up more than a
gear at a time (which is the limitation on non-rr shimano shifters, it's
click click click to notch up three gears, for example) but would tend
to drop down them using lots of single-drop but fast changes?

--

Velvet

"Velvet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yeah, it's to do with the spring on it. Shimano's website have some
info on this, I think it's only on the top end stuff of theirs, .........

My Dawes Discovery 201 is almost blushing at the thought that it came with
top end bits. You're too kind Velvet ;-)
The derailleur in question is a Shimano C050. Which I believe is so low end
it's almost fallen off. I think there's then a gap up to XT/XTR when rapid
rise appears again.

tony R.

tony R said:

"Velvet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yeah, it's to do with the spring on it. Shimano's website have some
info on this, I think it's only on the top end stuff of theirs, .........

My Dawes Discovery 201 is almost blushing at the thought that it came with
top end bits. You're too kind Velvet ;-)
The derailleur in question is a Shimano C050. Which I believe is so low end
it's almost fallen off. I think there's then a gap up to XT/XTR when rapid
rise appears again.

tony R.

Ah well, you never know!! Mine's a Dawes Audax that came with Tiagra
stuff (though now three years old), which while not top-end seems very
nice, very smooth, and has drawn admiring comments from other riders
occasionally... so it was always possible you did have toward the top
end components on your bike, whether as factory or fitted afterwards...

Especially given the amount of bike fettling that I see posted about in
here sometimes ;-)

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

Surely you'd tend to want to change up faster, for acceleration

This is why it's aimed at MTBs, where he need to change down rapidly is more
of a necessity (very steep, sudden climbs).

I think.

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where you

can

Quoted message said:

shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever further ?

just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know

Thanx

Rapid rise is now available on Shimano XT, and next year, LX. Don't know
about roadie equipment, being a mtber.

I think it means that the derailleur essentially works in reverse. What this
means is: when you press your thumbtrigger on your shifter (which would
normally mean change down the gears), you actually are changing up the
gears. And when you pull the finger trigger (would normally be changing up)
you are actually changing down.

As for why.... I think it's because derailleurs are sprung a particular way
and hence shifting up is easier than shifting down. Rapid rise is there to
change that round. I think

HTH]
Nick

Simonb said:

Velvet said:

Surely you'd tend to want to change up faster, for acceleration

This is why it's aimed at MTBs, where he need to change down rapidly is more
of a necessity (very steep, sudden climbs).

I think.

Yebbut surely that's where the dropping three gears at once is useful..
not that I'm a MTB-er, only having ridden one once...

Or is it that rapid rise means you still can drop 1-3 at a time, just
that when it does drop, it does it with the spring pulling and thus it's
fast when it does it?

I think we need someone that has the RR on their bike to sort this one
out for us :-)

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

Or is it that rapid rise means you still can drop 1-3 at a time, just
that when it does drop, it does it with the spring pulling and thus
it's fast when it does it?

This is precisely what it does.

"Velvet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Especially given the amount of bike fettling that I see posted about in
here sometimes ;-)

Aint that the truth! In fact, the very same bike now has an old (13 yr. old)
XT chainset. From the sublime to the ridiculous on one drivetrain. Although
the ridiculous does work very well. The fact that it shifts "by default" to
the bigger sprockets often comes in useful as this bike daily pulls c. 50kg.
of trailer and kids up a short, sharp hill.

tony R.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the right hand bar) to
drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far and how long I push it over for -
I'm working against the spring force, so can control how many gears to
drop fairly easily that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the smaller
lever inside that one that clicks over and each click releases the
spring which pulls and it shifts up one gear.

Campag use the same system, only the inner lever is a button on the side
and it can also click through multiple points. I don't know how the Sora
"button" STIs behaved but I suspect that they were single click to go
up.

Jon

Simonb said:

Velvet said:

Or is it that rapid rise means you still can drop 1-3 at a time, just
that when it does drop, it does it with the spring pulling and thus
it's fast when it does it?

This is precisely what it does.

Ah, right, thanks for clearing that one up for me! I realised halfway
through I was probably confusing two separate issues with how it all
works, though I'm not quite sure how you'd judge the drop down 1, 2 or 3
if it's on a spring to drop quicker.. but maybe that's cos I ride a road
bike with drops rather than indexed shifters for straight bars...

I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the right hand bar) to
drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far and how long I push it over for -
I'm working against the spring force, so can control how many gears to
drop fairly easily that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the smaller
lever inside that one that clicks over and each click releases the
spring which pulls and it shifts up one gear.

--

Velvet

Jon Senior said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the right hand bar) to
drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far and how long I push it over for -
I'm working against the spring force, so can control how many gears to
drop fairly easily that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the smaller
lever inside that one that clicks over and each click releases the
spring which pulls and it shifts up one gear.

Campag use the same system, only the inner lever is a button on the side
and it can also click through multiple points. I don't know how the Sora
"button" STIs behaved but I suspect that they were single click to go
up.

Jon

Yeah, this is a single click and release to move up, to move up again
you have to click and release repeatedly.

Which is why I was a bit puzzled as to the actual gains made for
downshifting fast with a RR setup, cos to downshift one gear might be
faster, but to downshift 2 or three it *definitely* isn't!!!

If I want to change up three, it's three sets of click-release movements
of the little lever, which seems to take just as long, if not longer, as
dropping three gears using the push waaay over and hold to be sure it's
dropped the three..

Maybe I'll have to experiment at some point this weekend with it all -
it could just be my perception is wildly out of kilter with the actual
time taken to shift!

--

Velvet

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Which is why I was a bit puzzled as to the actual gains made for
downshifting fast with a RR setup, cos to downshift one gear might be
faster, but to downshift 2 or three it *definitely* isn't!!!

Think about how "snappy" the change up is on your system (Assuming it's
setup right!). Now compare that to the feel of the change down (which is
usually slightly more rattly. The RapidRise system just swaps those two.
It does also mean that if your cable or shifter breaks, the default gear
is your lowest, not your highest. After the Gripsh*t on the bent broke I
can say with some confidence that this is a Good Thing (TM). The
experience of suddenly hitting top gear going up Leith Walk was not one
I intend to repeat!

Jon

"Velvet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jon Senior said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the right hand bar) to
drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far and how long I push it over for -
I'm working against the spring force, so can control how many gears to
drop fairly easily that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the smaller
lever inside that one that clicks over and each click releases the
spring which pulls and it shifts up one gear.

Campag use the same system, only the inner lever is a button on the side
and it can also click through multiple points. I don't know how the Sora
"button" STIs behaved but I suspect that they were single click to go
up.

Jon

Yeah, this is a single click and release to move up, to move up again
you have to click and release repeatedly.

Which is why I was a bit puzzled as to the actual gains made for
downshifting fast with a RR setup, cos to downshift one gear might be
faster, but to downshift 2 or three it *definitely* isn't!!!

If I want to change up three, it's three sets of click-release movements
of the little lever, which seems to take just as long, if not longer, as
dropping three gears using the push waaay over and hold to be sure it's
dropped the three..

Maybe I'll have to experiment at some point this weekend with it all -
it could just be my perception is wildly out of kilter with the actual
time taken to shift!

In my experience it's not so much "speed" as "ease" of shifting to bigger
sprockets that is probably the alleged advantage of rapid rise. I have to
pull a heavy trailer up a hill near home. Due to a combination of the road
layout before the hill, the length and steepness of the hill and my level of
fitness, I always have to change to bigger sprockets whilst on this hill. I
find it's easier to do this on the bike with the r r derailleur.

tony R.

tony R said:

"Velvet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jon Senior said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

>I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the right hand bar) to
>drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far and how long I push it over for -
>I'm working against the spring force, so can control how many gears to
>drop fairly easily that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the smaller
>lever inside that one that clicks over and each click releases the
>spring which pulls and it shifts up one gear.

Campag use the same system, only the inner lever is a button on the side
and it can also click through multiple points. I don't know how the Sora
"button" STIs behaved but I suspect that they were single click to go
up.

Jon

Yeah, this is a single click and release to move up, to move up again
you have to click and release repeatedly.

Which is why I was a bit puzzled as to the actual gains made for
downshifting fast with a RR setup, cos to downshift one gear might be
faster, but to downshift 2 or three it *definitely* isn't!!!

If I want to change up three, it's three sets of click-release movements
of the little lever, which seems to take just as long, if not longer, as
dropping three gears using the push waaay over and hold to be sure it's
dropped the three..

Maybe I'll have to experiment at some point this weekend with it all -
it could just be my perception is wildly out of kilter with the actual
time taken to shift!

In my experience it's not so much "speed" as "ease" of shifting to bigger
sprockets that is probably the alleged advantage of rapid rise. I have to
pull a heavy trailer up a hill near home. Due to a combination of the road
layout before the hill, the length and steepness of the hill and my level of
fitness, I always have to change to bigger sprockets whilst on this hill. I
find it's easier to do this on the bike with the r r derailleur.

tony R.

Tony/Jon,

Ahh, yes, I see.... yes, I'd prefer to suddenly drop to a low rather
than a high by default... hadn't thought about a sudden cable snap...
something else to worry about whilst on the bike LOL (joking, these
days, woohoo!)

I spend a lot of time in the big sprockets too - am wondering if RR is
more useful if on a double chainring than a triple though perhaps, dunno
really.

I'm still working on gear changes while the bike is under load (ie, up
hills etc) - I find it very hard not to have it be a jerky and obviously
stressful for the components (and my knees!) procedure - slacking off
the power through the pedals instantly leads to a drop in cadence but
worse a drop in speed, which is very hard to recover... I know there
must be a knack to it, maybe one part of the pedal stroke is best - I'll
get it one day!

--

Velvet