Rant about cogsets

Quoted message said:

RonSonic said:

I live in Florida and ride mostly a mountain bike and a 'cross bike. Both are
presently 8 speed. Since it's mtb season I've considered upgrades, like going to
9 speed with it. Being Florida and mostly flat, I've been happy with the 12-28
cassettes I've been running. I rarely use the 12, but it's got an excuse,
someday I'll be in a race and need it (I hope to eventually race at a level that
such a thing could make a difference) mostly it's there in case. The 28 gets
pretty darned lonely. I don't remember actually using it, but it could happen
and I figure if I ever do want it, I'll want it real bad. We won't even talk
about the granny ring up front, I don't think it's been used since I adjusted
the limit screws (it'll be adjusted out and gone before the end of summer)

So I was thinking of going to nine and everybody makes cassettes that are 11-32
or 34 even. This will give me FEWER useful gears than what I've got now. The
commonly available road cassettes all stop short of the 28 I've got now. What a
pain. Does everyone else need an 11-32? I understand, elsewhere in this great
country they have "terrain." Still? Just a few years ago there was nothing
bigger than a 28, were there places that nobody could go that they go now?
Doesn't it take more skill to stay upright pedaling a 22x32 than to just stand
on the pedals?

I'm not sure I understand your problem, but I think you're saying you
are thinking about going to 9s to give you gearing in case you do a mtb
race in a place where you will have some significant hills.

The point is that all of the MTB cassettes that we see advertised are 11-32 or
11-34. This seems unlikely to be a necessary gear range for everyone.
Admittedly, me and Florida is a special case but given that these bikes all have
triples this seems a needlessly wide range of cogs with unecessarilly wide gaps.

Ron

Quoted message said:

My thought on it is that if you are not able to train on that type of
terrain you will not be able to race on it. Using an 11 on a downhill
takes significant skill as does using the 32 with the small ring. I
don't see how you could possilbly use these gears in a race if you
didn't get the chance to train on terrain that required them.
Personally, I think going up a steep trail does take practice.

If you did upgrade to 9s it seems to me you should get at least 2
cassettes- one for FL and one for mountains (assuming that you get the
opportunity to train in mountains).

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

RonSonic said:

I live in Florida and ride mostly a mountain bike and a 'cross bike. Both are
presently 8 speed. Since it's mtb season I've considered upgrades, like going to
9 speed with it. Being Florida and mostly flat, I've been happy with the 12-28
cassettes I've been running. I rarely use the 12, but it's got an excuse,
someday I'll be in a race and need it (I hope to eventually race at a level that
such a thing could make a difference) mostly it's there in case. The 28 gets
pretty darned lonely. I don't remember actually using it, but it could happen
and I figure if I ever do want it, I'll want it real bad. We won't even talk
about the granny ring up front, I don't think it's been used since I adjusted
the limit screws (it'll be adjusted out and gone before the end of summer)

So I was thinking of going to nine and everybody makes cassettes that are 11-32
or 34 even. This will give me FEWER useful gears than what I've got now. The
commonly available road cassettes all stop short of the 28 I've got now. What a
pain. Does everyone else need an 11-32? I understand, elsewhere in this great
country they have "terrain." Still? Just a few years ago there was nothing
bigger than a 28, were there places that nobody could go that they go now?
Doesn't it take more skill to stay upright pedaling a 22x32 than to just stand
on the pedals?

Maybe you ought to go to a decent bike shop to see that there are 9s
cogsets out there(certainly not from MO) that are say 12-28, 9s....

IRD is the only maker who offers 12-28 9 speed cassettes.
12-13-15-17-19-21-23-25-28. Worse than Shimano's 12-27 9 speed. At
least Shimano gives you a 12-15 straight block before starting the 2
tooth jumps. But if he absolutely has to have a 12-28 from the
factory, he can mail order from IRD.

Cheapst and best is to buy the 12-25 105 HG70 9 speed cassette from
Nashbar for $30 and replace the 25 cog with the 28 cog from his current
12-28 8 speed cassette. End up with a 12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-28. The
HG70 is losse cogs and spacers when you take out the needless bolts
holding the last set of cogs and spacers together.

Nashbar does off a 11-28 9 speed cassette for $20 if changing cogs
frightens the original person.

Miche sells a 12-27 9 speed cassette in the Shimano spline pattern too.
Mail order from Universal Cycles for $36. All loose cogs so you could
easily replace the 27 cog with a 28 cog from an old 8 or 9 speed
cassette laying around.

Hey, thanks. I was more venting than looking for tips, but I'll take 'em.

Ron

amakyonin said:

I don't see why you need to keep an unused 28-tooth bailout gear if you
aren't even using the granny either. My suggestion would be to get a
12-23 or 12-25 road cassette and make use of the granny if you need
more torque than the biggest cog provides on the middle chainring.
Consider getting a road rear derailleur to match the cassette for
better shifting if you go this way.

Might yet try it. Thanks

Ron

Quoted message said:

If you go with carrierless SRAM cassettes you can easily swap in a 26
or 28 tooth from your 8-speed cassette if you really want to keep a
bigger cog. You can even transfer 8-speed cogs to a 9-speed cassette
this way provided you only do a few to keep the spacing close to normal.

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:27:18 GMT, Konstantin Shemyak <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

RonSonic said:

I live in Florida and ride mostly a mountain bike and a 'cross bike. Both are
presently 8 speed. Since it's mtb season I've considered upgrades, like going to
9 speed with it.

[skip]

Quoted message said:

Am I missing something?

So, 9 speed drivetrain does not give you any extra gears, makes cassette
and chain heavier and more expensive, and you still consider it as an
"upgrade" and plan to go for it. Now I am missing something.

That's the point, I am NOT going for it and am explaining why. I really didn't
expect you to care, which is why the tone.

Ron

Jasper Janssen said:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 03:11:36 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Does everyone else need an 11-32? I understand, elsewhere in this great
country they have "terrain." Still? Just a few years ago there was nothing
bigger than a 28, were there places that nobody could go that they go now?

For values of "a few years" which are close to a generation, namely 25
years. Ultegra 9 comes in a 12-27, which is damn close to 12-28.

25 years ago my bike had a 32-tooth cog and 38-tooth cogs were
available.

RonSonic said:

On 11 Apr 2006 03:46:24 -0700, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure I understand your problem, but I think you're saying you
are thinking about going to 9s to give you gearing in case you do a mtb
race in a place where you will have some significant hills.

The point is that all of the MTB cassettes that we see advertised are 11-32 or
11-34. This seems unlikely to be a necessary gear range for everyone.
Admittedly, me and Florida is a special case but given that these bikes all have
triples this seems a needlessly wide range of cogs with unecessarilly wide gaps.

Since the vast majority of those who ride MTBs would probably
"automatically" order the 11-32 or 34, it makes sense to market them
as "MTB cassettes".

But there are plenty of other choices in "roadie cassettes". I've got
a 12-21 on my own MTB right now (did I mention that it's on the "urban
wheels"?).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Llatikcuf said:

RonSonic said:

Does everyone else need an 11-32?

http://llatikcuf.home.comcast.net/littlecottonwood.jpg

This ride is 20 miles up and 20 miles back from my front door. I only
do it a couple times a year. I'm probably just a wimp, but sometimes I
glad to have my 34.

-nate

What's it like on the way down? I would love to have a buddy drive me up to
the top so I could descend 😉
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Hank Wirtz said:

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What about SRAM?

SRAM Roads go up to 26. MTBs start at 32.

The Shimano Dura Ace and Ultegra 9-speed cassettes are 12-27 (should
be plenty close for government work).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Chalo said:

RonSonic said:

Does everyone else need an 11-32? I understand, elsewhere in this great
country they have "terrain." Still? Just a few years ago there was nothing
bigger than a 28, were there places that nobody could go that they go now?

In the early '80s, you could get a freewheel with a 38 tooth large
sprocket. I still have a couple. Now I use 11-34 freewheels because
they have a larger overall range.

Okay, guess I missed those. That would've been back in the days when chainrings
were typically 28-38-48.

Quoted message said:

In my town, there are paved streets with slopes up to 27%. There are
thoroughfares that exceed 20% in spots. If I could get an 11-38
freewheel or cassette, I would.

I knew there were places and people for those 11-34s.

Quoted message said:

In Florida, why wouldn't it be satisfactory to use a coaster braked
bike, or a fixie? I can see why you might want _some_ gears, but what
the heck do you need 18 of them for? Why not use a straight block and
run it with a single ring? That way you'd have the close ratios you
desire while shedding a little weight and extraneous junk from your
ride. Make it 8-speed rather than 9 (or 7-speed instead of 8), and
you'll save money in the process.

It is my cross country bike and it isn't that there isn't anything steep, it
just isn't long enough to need a very low sit and spin gear. And all the places
that steep are nowhere near smooth enough to take that approach. The descents
are fast and rooty and rutted and short and the climbs just a little less steep.
I might get away with a single ring up front and an 11-32 or so in the back,
just hadn't really thought about trying it. Hmmm, maybe I need to beat up
Sheldon's gear calculator a little. Another poster suggested a road cassette and
getting more use out of my granny ring. I'm a bit leery from some chain suck
episodes trying to get onto the small ring in a hurry.

My cross bike is a 1x8 and will be 1x9 for next season. A 42 ring and 12x26 is
about perfect for that bike. That's a more controlled environment than the woods
and for a one hour race or two hour training ride a bail out gear is not the
issue it is for a bike that can take you someplace scary or get entered in a six
hour race.

Anyway, I'll be sticking with the eight on the mountain bike it seems. At least
until I end up with a new bike and it comes with nine. Then it's cassette
hunting time. As it is I've got no reason to not be happy with the bike I've
got, a fresh rear der to replace the one that hasn't shifted quite right since
that time I re-used a Shimano chain rivet and some better, lighter wheels (just
because) and I'll be optimized.

Anyway, thanks for thinking this through. It's good to have other perspectives.

Ron

In article <[email hidden]>, RonSonic

() said:

Okay, guess I missed those. That would've been back in the days when chainrings
were typically 28-38-48.

It was a 14-17-22-28-38. A couple of acquaintances had them on some of
the first mountain bikes in the UK - a pair of Ritcheys - and used them
to ride from London to Lagos across the Sahara. They just looked
/wrong/...

Quoted message said:

I knew there were places and people for those 11-34s.

I use one on my Audax steed since brevet organisators over here are fond
of what they call "scenic" routes and everyone else calls "very hilly
indeed". However, the gaps between ratios are still All Wrong. The 18%
jump between the 20 and 17 occurs smack in the middle of the level road
cruising range. I shall get a SRAM next time.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Ernesto, give me that Kit-Kat, or I will kill you.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>,

RonSonic said:

On 11 Apr 2006 03:46:24 -0700, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure I understand your problem, but I think you're saying you
are thinking about going to 9s to give you gearing in case you do a mtb
race in a place where you will have some significant hills.

The point is that all of the MTB cassettes that we see advertised are 11-32 or
11-34. This seems unlikely to be a necessary gear range for everyone.
Admittedly, me and Florida is a special case but given that these bikes all have
triples this seems a needlessly wide range of cogs with unecessarilly wide gaps.

_ You need to get over the market speak of "MTB" cassette, there
is no such thing. The only difference at the lower levels between
MTB and Road Cassettes is the number of teeth on the sprockets.

Shimano's HG-70 cassettes are totally interchangeable and
relatively cheap. Buy an "MTB" and a "road" one and mix and
match to whatever works for you.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Dave Larrington said:

In article <[email hidden]>, RonSonic

() said:

Okay, guess I missed those. That would've been back in the days when chainrings
were typically 28-38-48.

It was a 14-17-22-28-38. A couple of acquaintances had them on some of
the first mountain bikes in the UK - a pair of Ritcheys - and used them
to ride from London to Lagos across the Sahara. They just looked
/wrong/...

The previous writer was implying that a 28 inner chainring, which is
what came on my 1991 Trek 520 touring bike, coupled with a 38 rear cog,
gives 20 gear inches. Today mountain bikes come from the factory with
22 inner rings. Coupled with a 34 rear cog, the gear inches is 17.
Today you can get lower lows due to the much more common use of smaller
inner rings on mountain bikes, or factory touring bikes with mountain
bike cranksets, or the very easy to swap out inner chainrings on 74mm
bcd cranksets. No need for such a huge rear cog like a 38. My current
Redline touring bike's hanger will not even allow the rear derailleur
to clear a 34 cog so I have to use a 32. Combined with the 20 tooth
inner ring, the low is still 17 gear inches.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I knew there were places and people for those 11-34s.

I use one on my Audax steed since brevet organisators over here are fond
of what they call "scenic" routes and everyone else calls "very hilly
indeed". However, the gaps between ratios are still All Wrong. The 18%
jump between the 20 and 17 occurs smack in the middle of the level road
cruising range. I shall get a SRAM next time.

I use a triple crankset on my brevet bike. 52-42-30 rings with
13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-28 cogs. Rarely, rarely need the inner ring.
But its there. And I could easily change it to a 28 or 26 or 24 if I
wanted to. Or the next time I take the bike to the mountains, I will
put on a 24 inner ring.

I'm surprised you don't have a farily tight cassette on your brevet
bike combined with a road triple. Particulary if you ride in very
hilly terrain. I doubt there are any successful brevet riders who
attempt to actually use 11 or 12 tooth cogs while riding 300-400-600
kilometer brevets. I've not met any who have extra energy to waste on
multi hundred mile rides.

Quoted message said:

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Ernesto, give me that Kit-Kat, or I will kill you.

Phil said:

Llatikcuf said:

RonSonic said:

Does everyone else need an 11-32?

http://llatikcuf.home.comcast.net/littlecottonwood.jpg

This ride is 20 miles up and 20 miles back from my front door. I only
do it a couple times a year. I'm probably just a wimp, but sometimes I
glad to have my 34.

-nate

What's it like on the way down? I would love to have a buddy drive me up to
the top so I could descend 😉

I rode it a couple times last July when I took my kid to the Park City
Cycling Festival and Junior Championships. The climb wasn't so bad but I
didn't like the descent. Too much traffic, sandy patches and not much
shoulder. I had my triple with a 30 ring and a 12 - 28 cassette.

In article <[email hidden]>,

() said:

I use a triple crankset on my brevet bike. 52-42-30 rings with
13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-28 cogs. Rarely, rarely need the inner ring.
But its there. And I could easily change it to a 28 or 26 or 24 if I
wanted to. Or the next time I take the bike to the mountains, I will
put on a 24 inner ring.

I'm surprised you don't have a farily tight cassette on your brevet
bike combined with a road triple. Particulary if you ride in very
hilly terrain. I doubt there are any successful brevet riders who
attempt to actually use 11 or 12 tooth cogs while riding 300-400-600
kilometer brevets. I've not met any who have extra energy to waste on
multi hundred mile rides.

That is the setup I most usually see (apart from the certifiable
lunatics on fixed). However, my brevet machine is a recumbent trike.
24-42-52 chainset, 11-34 cassette, 406 rear wheel for a range of 13-87".
I can pedal this up to about 58 km/h before my knees start to go
supersonic and the 13" has proved very useful, notably up the 25%
sections of Bushcombe Lane at the start of the Cotswold Corker, when
those with higher bottom gears were picking themselves out of the
hedgerows every four feet...

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
While you were out at the Rollright Stones, I came and set fire to your
Shed.

RonSonic said:

So I was thinking of going to nine and everybody makes cassettes that are 11-32
or 34 even. This will give me FEWER useful gears than what I've got now. The
commonly available road cassettes all stop short of the 28 I've got now. What a
pain. Does everyone else need an 11-32? I understand, elsewhere in this great
country they have "terrain." Still? Just a few years ago there was nothing
bigger than a 28, were there places that nobody could go that they go now?
Doesn't it take more skill to stay upright pedaling a 22x32 than to just stand
on the pedals?

Am I missing something?

I agree. I'd love a 14-30 or a 14-32 for touring, but Shimano don't
make one. Sheldon Brown does, but the price naturally reflects the
number of cassettes he needs to cannibalise to do it. And the shipping
and UK VAT would be crippling. Maybe I need to go to the next
conference that comes up in Boston.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <443eb721.0@entanet>,

Zog The Undeniable said:

I agree. I'd love a 14-30 or a 14-32 for touring, but Shimano don't
make one. Sheldon Brown does, but the price naturally reflects the
number of cassettes he needs to cannibalise to do it. And the shipping
and UK VAT would be crippling. Maybe I need to go to the next
conference that comes up in Boston.

_ If you don't need the elusive 27t gear ( only on the expensive
ultegra ), you can make a 14-30 or 14-32 much cheaper than
Sheldon offers it. Get an HG-70 ( or 9sp 105) 14-25 cassette
and the 9spd MTB cassette of your choice. If you want the 30,
you'll need an 11-34.

http://www.awcycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m5b41s162p1499

All you "give up" with using HG-50 or HG-70 cogsets is a few
grams and some shiny plating. You can probably make a perfectly
fine 14-30 cogset for less than 50 quid[1], probably a lot less if
you catch a sale on the MTB cassette. You can buy the
individual cogs, but it's often cheaper just to buy a whole
cogset if you need more than one or two extra.

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]_ I hope I got the slang right... I can't remember how to get
the pound sign out of this keyboard.

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Dave Larrington said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

() said:

I use a triple crankset on my brevet bike. 52-42-30 rings with
13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-28 cogs. Rarely, rarely need the inner ring.
But its there. And I could easily change it to a 28 or 26 or 24 if I
wanted to. Or the next time I take the bike to the mountains, I will
put on a 24 inner ring.

I'm surprised you don't have a farily tight cassette on your brevet
bike combined with a road triple. Particulary if you ride in very
hilly terrain. I doubt there are any successful brevet riders who
attempt to actually use 11 or 12 tooth cogs while riding 300-400-600
kilometer brevets. I've not met any who have extra energy to waste on
multi hundred mile rides.

That is the setup I most usually see (apart from the certifiable
lunatics on fixed). However, my brevet machine is a recumbent trike.
24-42-52 chainset, 11-34 cassette, 406 rear wheel for a range of 13-87".
I can pedal this up to about 58 km/h before my knees start to go
supersonic and the 13" has proved very useful, notably up the 25%
sections of Bushcombe Lane at the start of the Cotswold Corker, when
those with higher bottom gears were picking themselves out of the
hedgerows every four feet...

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
While you were out at the Rollright Stones, I came and set fire to your
Shed.

On the 300k on Saturday there was one guy on a fixed. 42x15 on very
hilly terrain. Not for me. But he did the hilly brevet series last
year on the fixed. And a 1200k in Colorado. Eastern plains of
Colorado, not the mountains. Your trike would require very different
gearing.

Zog The Undeniable said:

I agree. I'd love a 14-30 or a 14-32 for touring, but Shimano don't
make one. Sheldon Brown does, but the price naturally reflects the
number of cassettes he needs to cannibalise to do it. And the shipping

ie, 2.

Quoted message said:

and UK VAT would be crippling. Maybe I need to go to the next
conference that comes up in Boston.

You could probably buy the two cassettes cheaper yourself and combine
them, given that cassette prices in europe are less than in the USA.

Jasper

Booker C. Bense said:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <443eb721.0@entanet>,

Zog The Undeniable said:

I agree. I'd love a 14-30 or a 14-32 for touring, but Shimano don't
make one. Sheldon Brown does, but the price naturally reflects the
number of cassettes he needs to cannibalise to do it. And the shipping
and UK VAT would be crippling. Maybe I need to go to the next
conference that comes up in Boston.

_ If you don't need the elusive 27t gear ( only on the expensive
ultegra ), you can make a 14-30 or 14-32 much cheaper than
Sheldon offers it. Get an HG-70 ( or 9sp 105) 14-25 cassette
and the 9spd MTB cassette of your choice. If you want the 30,
you'll need an 11-34.

http://www.awcycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m5b41s162p1499

All you "give up" with using HG-50 or HG-70 cogsets is a few
grams and some shiny plating. You can probably make a perfectly
fine 14-30 cogset for less than 50 quid[1], probably a lot less if
you catch a sale on the MTB cassette. You can buy the
individual cogs, but it's often cheaper just to buy a whole
cogset if you need more than one or two extra.

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]_ I hope I got the slang right... I can't remember how to get
the pound sign out of this keyboard.

I agree. 14-25 HG50 9 speed from Settle Cycles in England for 20
Pounds, including VAT. 11-32 HG70 9 speed from Settle Cycles for 25
Pounds.

14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-25 on the 14-25 cassette. All loose cogs.
11-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32 on the 11-32 cassette. All loose cogs.

Best option would be to take the 14-15-16-17-18 from the 14-25 cassette
and the 21-24-28-32 from the 11-32 cassette. The 14 through 18 cogs
would all have their ramps lined up correctly since they are from the
same cassette and would have the best shifting. And be the ones you
are using most anyway.

I like the above 14-32 combination far better than any of the custom
made cassettes found on the Harris website. Those Harris custom
cassettes seem to have a fondness for two tooth jumps between cogs
right in the range of cogs you use the most, 14-18. Awful.

Quoted message said:

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Quoted message said:

Booker C. Bense said:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <443eb721.0@entanet>,

Zog The Undeniable said:

I agree. I'd love a 14-30 or a 14-32 for touring, but Shimano don't
make one. Sheldon Brown does, but the price naturally reflects the
number of cassettes he needs to cannibalise to do it. And the shipping
and UK VAT would be crippling. Maybe I need to go to the next
conference that comes up in Boston.

_ If you don't need the elusive 27t gear ( only on the expensive
ultegra ), you can make a 14-30 or 14-32 much cheaper than
Sheldon offers it. Get an HG-70 ( or 9sp 105) 14-25 cassette
and the 9spd MTB cassette of your choice. If you want the 30,
you'll need an 11-34.

http://www.awcycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m5b41s162p1499

All you "give up" with using HG-50 or HG-70 cogsets is a few
grams and some shiny plating. You can probably make a perfectly
fine 14-30 cogset for less than 50 quid[1], probably a lot less if
you catch a sale on the MTB cassette. You can buy the
individual cogs, but it's often cheaper just to buy a whole
cogset if you need more than one or two extra.

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]_ I hope I got the slang right... I can't remember how to get
the pound sign out of this keyboard.

I agree. 14-25 HG50 9 speed from Settle Cycles in England for 20
Pounds, including VAT. 11-32 HG70 9 speed from Settle Cycles for 25
Pounds.

14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-25 on the 14-25 cassette. All loose cogs.
11-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32 on the 11-32 cassette. All loose cogs.

Best option would be to take the 14-15-16-17-18 from the 14-25 cassette
and the 21-24-28-32 from the 11-32 cassette. The 14 through 18 cogs
would all have their ramps lined up correctly since they are from the
same cassette and would have the best shifting. And be the ones you
are using most anyway.

I like the above 14-32 combination far better than any of the custom
made cassettes found on the Harris website. Those Harris custom
cassettes seem to have a fondness for two tooth jumps between cogs
right in the range of cogs you use the most, 14-18. Awful.

But still better than the stupid Shimano jumps.

Greg
--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons