Ran over my first "cyclist" today.

Hi all. I thought I'd share my bad luck today.

I was going to pick up my daughter, so I was pulling the empty trailer with my newly rebuilt
kid-hauler. I passed by the local middle school then crossed the main collector street over to the
next neighborhood. Ahead was a small group of kids (8 to 10 of them, all between 12 and 14 yrs old).
The road at this point was four lanes with a center median. Most of the kids were walking in the
street in the right-hand lane, but two were riding freestyle BMX bikes. One kid was yelling "Race
Him!" The kid who wanted to race was setting up in the left-hand lane to take off as I passed. I had
slowed to a crawl and moved into the left-hand lane to go around the other kids.

One of the pedestrians kept moving closer, so my attention was split between him and my
"challenger." But the challenger decided not to race - instead he stepped into the street in front
of me singing a little song and doing a little dance. He apparently didn't estimate my speed because
he wasn't getting out of the way. I was torn between squeezing the brakes harder to stop or
preparing for the impact. I let go of the front brake to push the kid out of the way with my left
hand. As I moved him, he tripped over his bike and fell to the ground. His left cheek hit the curb,
but not hard enough to cause anything more than a red mark. No bruising to be seen.

Most of the kids scattered. I rolled past, then turned around to see if he was ok. Other people
stopped to make sure he was ok. For those who remember my incident with a vehicle a few years back,
the best thing I learned was to call the police and get a report. The last thing I wanted was some
vigilante parent looking to run over me. So, I called the police with my cell phone. The kid decided
that he didn't want any trouble and started running down the street. It was quite a sight to see - a
couple of kids running with a guy on a bike pulling a trailer while talking to a dispatcher on the
cell phone right behind them. I finally convinced him that he couldn't outrun me and the cops were
coming anyway, so he should just sit down.

Eventually they came - his mom, one of the other kids' mom, and the police. The "witness'" mom knew
right away what was up and immediately started chewing out her son for playing in the street again.
She actually apologized to me and wished me luck with the other mom. I soon found out why. The kid
started lying to his mom about how he had crashed his bike and was "just dusting off" when I rode
over and pushed him down. The mom wasn't sure who was telling the truth, but thought that if I were
riding around bullying children that I should be arrested. Yeah, a guy on a 20 year old road bike
pulling a child's trailer wearing full cycling gear (minus the clipless shoes) is riding around
looking for kids in the passing lane to knock down.

I'm glad the officer didn't believe it either. But I do wonder how that kid is going to turn out. He
was laughing in the car as they pulled away. I will teach my kids better.

One good thing did come of all this. While waiting for the police, the remaining kids were taking
turns riding the two BMX bikes. One kid kept telling the others to watch out because he didn't have
any brakes. He was smart enough to let me show him how to adjust his brakes properly. At least he
can stop now. And maybe one mom will take the time to teach her kid how to ride properly.

Alright, ranting is over. I just hope things go a little more smoothly tomorrow as I pass that way.

-Buck

Question: Why didn't you just stop?

M.

"Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi all. I thought I'd share my bad luck today.

I was going to pick up my daughter, so I was pulling the empty trailer

with

Quoted message said:

my newly rebuilt kid-hauler. I passed by the local middle school then crossed the main collector
street over to the next neighborhood. Ahead was

a

Quoted message said:

small group of kids (8 to 10 of them, all between 12 and 14 yrs old). The road at this point was
four lanes with a center median. Most of the kids were walking in the street in the right-hand
lane, but two were riding freestyle BMX bikes. One kid was yelling "Race Him!" The kid who wanted
to race was setting up in the left-hand lane to take off as I passed. I had slowed to a crawl and
moved into the left-hand lane to go around the other kids.

One of the pedestrians kept moving closer, so my attention was split

between

Quoted message said:

him and my "challenger." But the challenger decided not to race - instead

he

Quoted message said:

stepped into the street in front of me singing a little song and doing a little dance. He
apparently didn't estimate my speed because he wasn't getting out of the way. I was torn between
squeezing the brakes harder to stop or preparing for the impact. I let go of the front brake to
push the kid out of the way with my left hand. As I moved him, he tripped over his bike and fell
to the ground. His left cheek hit the curb, but not hard enough to cause anything more than a red
mark. No bruising to be seen.

Most of the kids scattered. I rolled past, then turned around to see if he was ok. Other people
stopped to make sure he was ok. For those who

remember

Quoted message said:

my incident with a vehicle a few years back, the best thing I learned was

to

Quoted message said:

call the police and get a report. The last thing I wanted was some

vigilante

Quoted message said:

parent looking to run over me. So, I called the police with my cell phone. The kid decided that he
didn't want any trouble and started running down

the

Quoted message said:

street. It was quite a sight to see - a couple of kids running with a guy

on

Quoted message said:

a bike pulling a trailer while talking to a dispatcher on the cell phone right behind them. I
finally convinced him that he couldn't outrun me and the cops were coming anyway, so he should
just sit down.

Eventually they came - his mom, one of the other kids' mom, and the

police.

Quoted message said:

The "witness'" mom knew right away what was up and immediately started chewing out her son for
playing in the street again. She actually

apologized

Quoted message said:

to me and wished me luck with the other mom. I soon found out why. The kid started lying to his
mom about how he had crashed his bike and was "just dusting off" when I rode over and pushed him
down. The mom wasn't sure who was telling the truth, but thought that if I were riding around
bullying children that I should be arrested. Yeah, a guy on a 20 year old road bike pulling a
child's trailer wearing full cycling gear (minus the clipless shoes) is riding around looking for
kids in the passing lane to knock

down.

Quoted message said:

I'm glad the officer didn't believe it either. But I do wonder how that

kid

Quoted message said:

is going to turn out. He was laughing in the car as they pulled away. I

will

Quoted message said:

teach my kids better.

One good thing did come of all this. While waiting for the police, the remaining kids were taking
turns riding the two BMX bikes. One kid kept telling the others to watch out because he didn't
have any brakes. He was smart enough to let me show him how to adjust his brakes properly. At

least

Quoted message said:

he can stop now. And maybe one mom will take the time to teach her kid how to ride properly.

Alright, ranting is over. I just hope things go a little more smoothly tomorrow as I pass
that way.

-Buck

"Michael" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Question: Why didn't you just stop?

I probably should have stopped well before I reached them, but I certainly didn't expect the one kid
to do what he did. I thought he would have sense enough to stay out of the way. The rest of them at
least stayed in the right-hand lane. I was already on the brakes to pass them slowly, but when the
one kid stepped out in front of me, I had to make a choice - either try harder to stop completely
(and risk still hitting him with either the bike or my head), or move him out of the way. I chose
the latter. If he hadn't tripped over his own bike, he wouldn't have fallen down - that's how slow I
was moving at that point (no more than a walking pace). For that matter, if he had stayed to the
side instead of dancing in front of me (as we were waiting for the cops, he called it his "football
dance," but changed his mind about what happened when his mom arrived), this wouldn't have happened.
Yeah, if I had stopped well before reaching them, this wouldn't have happened either.

-Buck

"Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

But the challenger decided not to race - instead he stepped into the street in front of me singing
a little song and doing a little dance. He apparently didn't estimate my speed because he wasn't
getting out of the way. I was torn between squeezing the brakes harder to stop or preparing for the
impact. I let go of the front brake to push the kid out of the way with my left hand. As I moved
him, he tripped over his bike and fell to the ground. His left cheek hit the curb, but not hard
enough to cause anything more than a red mark. No bruising to be seen.

Nevertheless you hit a pedestrian when you could have stopped and not hit him. And a kid. As you
describe them, your actions are indefensible, IMO.

It's never OK to deliberately hit a ped. It doesn't matter what they're doing, or how obnoxiously
they're behaving. You're the vehicle. They're the pedestrian. Not hitting the ped is your
responsibility.

RichC

I had a kid jump out in front of me.... it was really just a half hearted thing... and he yelled boo
as he was jumping! Didn't hit him - but i yelled "don't do that" as I passed him.

Some people do strange things. Quick thinking on your part!

take care Liz

Hey! Look what "Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote :

Quoted message said:

One of the pedestrians kept moving closer, so my attention was split between him and my
"challenger." But the challenger decided not to race - instead he stepped into the street in front
of me singing a little song and doing a little dance. He apparently didn't estimate my speed
because he wasn't getting out of the way. I was torn between squeezing the brakes harder to stop or
preparing for the impact. I let go of the front brake to push the kid out of the way with my left
hand. As I moved him, he tripped over his bike and fell to the ground. His left cheek hit the curb,
but not hard enough to cause anything more than a red mark. No bruising to be seen.

Buck wrote: <snip>

Quoted message said:

Eventually they came - his mom, one of the other kids' mom, and the police. The "witness'" mom
knew right away what was up and immediately started chewing out her son for playing in the street
again. She actually apologized to me and wished me luck with the other mom. I soon found out why.
The kid started lying to his mom about how he had crashed his bike and was "just dusting off" when
I rode over and pushed him down. The mom wasn't sure who was telling the truth, but thought that
if I were riding around bullying children that I should be arrested. Yeah, a guy on a 20 year old
road bike pulling a child's trailer wearing full cycling gear (minus the clipless shoes) is riding
around looking for kids in the passing lane to knock down.

I'm glad the officer didn't believe it either. But I do wonder how that kid is going to turn out.
He was laughing in the car as they pulled away. I will teach my kids better.

-Buck

In this part of the world attempting to leave the scene of an accident is an offense as is giving
a false statement to a police officer. Maybe you should get with the officer who took the report
and see if you can get him to go by the kid's house and put the fear of god into him. This kind
of behaviour needs to be stopped at as young an age as possible. This comes from personal
experience. I had the local police put the fear of god into my daughter when she was 10. I really
straightened her out.

"Rich Clark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nevertheless you hit a pedestrian when you could have stopped and not hit him. And a kid. As you
describe them, your actions are indefensible, IMO.

It's never OK to deliberately hit a ped. It doesn't matter what they're doing, or how obnoxiously
they're behaving. You're the vehicle. They're

the

Quoted message said:

pedestrian. Not hitting the ped is your responsibility.

I didn't deliberately hit a pedestrian. I ask you which is worse, the impact of a bicycle with a
200lb rider follwed by a trailer or a hand that pushes you out of the way? If the kid had stayed to
the left instead of deliberately stepping in front of me to taunt me with his "football dance" (his
words, not mine), I would have rolled on by at a slow pace. As it was, I was on the brakes, trying
to stop when he stepped out. I wasn't sure I could come to a complete stop. So it was a choice - try
squeezing the brakes harder and possibly stop (or possibly not stop and hit him with the bike,
putting me at risk as well), or move a 14 yr old kid out of the road with my left hand.

Perhaps a second-by-second recounting of all the events would have made my position clearer. Even
the kid recognized his responsibility in the matter (although he lied to both his mother and the
police officer about it later). He wanted to drop the whole matter and just go home. I had to follow
him over four blocks before I convinced him that he should just sit down and let the officer work it
out. My reasons for this were two-fold: first to have an official record so that no one could make a
claim against me later (or decide to run me down with their car); second, to let the officer talk to
the kid and convince him that it was a bad idea to be pulling this kind of [censored].

My posting it here was partly to vent, partly to discuss the matter. While there have been a few
threads on the rights and responsibilities of both pedestrians and cyclists, this one is a bit
different than the usual. These kids were not in a crosswalk and were certainly taunting traffic.
They were treating a main collector road as a playground, even after the incident. You should also
know that the speed limit there is 35mph. If they were acting like responsible pedestrians, they
would have been on the sidewalk (which brings up another of this kid's lies - he originally told his
mother that he was on the sidewalk when this happened) or crossing the street at an intersection (we
were in the middle of the block).

I recognize that I could have avoided the situation altogether by stopping well before I reached
them. But I felt the least risky move was to go around them in the left lane. I certainly didn't
want to be stopped in the middle of the street. People often zoom through the yellow light at the
nearby intersection at speeds much higher than the posted limit. It was a bad thing all around. I
hope that my kids don't behave in such a way when I'm not around. I see this as part of the problem
with latchkey kids. Their parents rarely recognize what the kids are really up to and are always
quick to jump to their defense.

Now if this had been a multi-use path and the kid was actually some dog-walking moron wandering all
over the path, would you feel the same way?

-Buck

Rich Clark <[email hidden]> wrote:

: Nevertheless you hit a pedestrian when you could have stopped and not hit him. And a kid. As you
: describe them, your actions are indefensible, IMO.

I'd love to see the road rules that state one must stop in all perceived danger situations. Stopping
is only one option drawn from the accident avoidence set; veering is another, throwing yourself and
the bike on the road is also one; pushing a pedestrian out of the way is one I'd never considered
but to some extent it worked for the cyclist in this case. That the kid fell over their bike was a
miscalculation that is just as likely in any action made on short notice.

There is nothing in the OP to indicate that the actions of the cyclist were premeditated; if
anything, the cyclist acted to avoid a collision - albeit by an unusual method. That is the limit of
one's legal and moral obligation.

It's never OK to hit a pedestrian in any circumstance, but if the pedestrian disregards
opportunities to take responsibilities for their own safety, then they are behaving recklessly.

The OP explained that cyclist was already proceeding in a precautionary mode when the kid jumped in
front of the bike. Perhaps with a trailer the bike was incapable of stopping instantly. Who knows?

It seems a reasonable assumption, given the description, that the kid was set for mayhem. That
he was the victim of it is the universe's way of unfolding the perfect illustration of cause
and effect.

Cheerz, Lynzz

"Lindsay Rowlands" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems a reasonable assumption, given the description, that the kid was set for mayhem. That
he was the victim of it is the universe's way of unfolding the perfect illustration of cause
and effect.

Yes, one could avoid responsibility by pointing to the agency of the universe, or one could squeeze
the brakes and stop the bike perfectly, at which time one could smile at the antics (mayhem, if you
must) of the child.

M.

Michael said:

"Lindsay Rowlands" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems a reasonable assumption, given the description, that the kid was set for mayhem. That he
was the victim of it is the universe's way of unfolding the perfect illustration of cause and
effect.

Yes, one could avoid responsibility by pointing to the agency of the universe, or one could
squeeze the brakes and stop the bike perfectly, at which time one could smile at the antics
(mayhem, if you must) of the child.

What are you smoking?

It's the kid's actions, not those of the OP, that were the problem. The kid deliberately put himself
in danger; the OP did his best to reduce that kid's danger.

If the kid had jumped in front of a car, and the car's brakes were inadequate, would you feel the
same? That the car should have stopped when the driver saw the kid in the distance?

In your design, how should the OP have proceeded after stopping way behind the children? Should he
wait for them to get down the street, and hope that they wouldn't want to go the same direction as
him? If they did, should he seek an alternate route? What if there were more children around?

Those children were a road hazard just like cars, adult pedestrians, slower cyclists, and potholes.
A cyclist will never get anywhere if he stops for every road hazard he sees.

The kid, on seeing that he would not be able to match the OP's speed, decided not to race, and
instead, to dance directly in the path of the OP. That's pretty stupid. If the OP hadn't pushed the
kid with his hand, the full impact of the bike, not nearly as accurately directed as the hand,
could have caused the kid to be pushed to the left, into the passing lane, where he could promptly
be run over by a car. It was his choice to dance in the street in the path of a fast moving,
oncoming vehicle.

Had the kid been struck by the bike and pushed to the left into the path of an oncoming car as
described above, I'd nominate him for a Darwin award...

Disclaimer: I don't KNOW that the kid could have been pushed to the left. I also don't know what
other effects the impact of the bike+trailer+ rider could possibly have had. That was one example of
many possible examples, and there are certainly examples with worse and better outcomes.

Quoted message said:

M.

--
Rick Onanian

In your original "rant" you wondered what will become of the youth. As a parole officer for juveniles (ages 12-25) in the state of Oregon I can tell you that his current level of criminal thinking, yes the act of minimizing, blame shifting, etc is considered criminal thinking, will blossom into an amazingly sheltered and compartmentalized young man. His mom's hesitations and inconsistent boundaries with him will only serve to make the problem worse. Basically, if he lived here I would have more control over his life than he would like, for a long time.

Yes, you could have stopped, but at what point is a person (young or not) expected to act reasonably and be accountable for their own CHOICES? This absolute "free ride" many are giving our children is not helping. It only serves to give them an altered and selfish perception of reality! It sucks he hit the kid. It sucks he didn't stop at least once. It sucks there are people defending the choice of this kid to endanger the wellfare of himself and a cyclist. I have had the complete displeasure to inform the operator of a motor vehicle that the person they struck is dead, when it was not the driver's fault. May I tell you it still ruined his life too. He lives with it every day... the what ifs and coulda woulda shoulda.

Sir, ride on. Be a good father, be consistent, be well.

K.

Buck <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote:
: "Michael" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: "]news:[email hidden]...
:> Question: Why didn't you just stop?

: I probably should have stopped well before I reached them, but I certainly didn't expect the one
: kid to do what he did. I thought he would have sense enough to stay out of the way. The rest of
: them at least stayed in the right-hand lane. I was already on the brakes to pass them slowly, but
: when the one kid stepped out in front of me, I had to make a choice - either try harder to stop
: completely (and risk still hitting him with either the bike or my head), or move him out of the
: way. I chose the latter. If he hadn't tripped over his own bike, he wouldn't have fallen down -
: that's how slow I was moving at that point (no more than a walking pace). For that matter, if he
: had stayed to the side instead of dancing in front of me (as we were waiting for the cops, he
: called it his "football dance," but changed his mind about what happened when his mom arrived),
: this wouldn't have happened. Yeah, if I had stopped well before reaching them, this wouldn't have
: happened either.

: -Buck

You found out the hardway that all kids have no sense and they are all out to kill us.

I do my best to avoid them at all costs when riding my bike.

--------------------------------
Bob Masse' [email hidden]
--------------------------------

Michael said:

"Lindsay Rowlands" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems a reasonable assumption, given the description, that the kid was set for mayhem. That he
was the victim of it is the universe's way of unfolding the perfect illustration of cause and
effect.

Yes, one could avoid responsibility by pointing to the agency of the universe, or one could
squeeze the brakes and stop the bike perfectly, at which time one could smile at the antics
(mayhem, if you must) of the child.

I don't know if I'd call it "antics". Granted I'm not on the "it's okay to slap down children" side
of the fence, but sweet Jesus when do parents ever get held accountable for raising bad or moronic
children? They just keep getting worse and worse.

Preston

Preston Crawford said:

slap down children" side of the fence, but sweet Jesus when do parents ever get held accountable
for raising bad or moronic children? They just keep getting worse and worse.

How about, when do bad or moronic children ever get held accountable for what they do? They don't,
which is why the just keep getting worse and worse; then they breed, and produce new children who
are even worse, and they defend those children's bad or moronic actions.

The kid deserved a lot worse than to get pushed out of the way of a bicyclist who was trying to do
the right thing, resulting in tripping over something behind him [his bike]. Then his mother came
and VALIDATED his actions and his story, reinforcing the kid's idea that it's OKAY to do that stuff.

Utter insanity.

Quoted message said:

Preston

--
Rick Onanian

Buck' j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m said:

Perhaps a second-by-second recounting of all the events would have made my position clearer. Even
the kid recognized his responsibility in the matter

Here's a voice from the pool of potential jurors. One which you can heed or ignore -- and it's
pretty clear you'll do the latter.

Bottom line:

The kid was wrong. You were wrong. You are supposed to be an adult.

Michael <[email hidden]> wrote:

: "Lindsay Rowlands" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: "]news:[email hidden]...
:> It seems a reasonable assumption, given the description, that the kid was set for mayhem. That he
:> was the victim of it is the universe's way of unfolding the perfect illustration of cause and
:> effect.

: Yes, one could avoid responsibility by pointing to the agency of the universe, or one could
: squeeze the brakes and stop the bike perfectly, at which time one could smile at the antics
: (mayhem, if you must) of the child.

You seem confused about the concept of responsibility here, but have it your way if you must
Michael. I certainly don't want to argue with you. I would be satisfied however, if you accept that
things rarely conform to the dichotomies of right/wrong; black/ white; good/bad, etc.

I want to add I preferred to hear the story of a badly misbehaving youth getting a shake up rather
than the tale of a cyclist and kid being both seriously injured in a collision.

Cheerz, Lynzz

"Lindsay Rowlands" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You seem confused about the concept of responsibility here, but have it your way if you must
Michael. I certainly don't want to argue with you. I would be satisfied however, if you accept
that things rarely conform to the dichotomies of right/wrong; black/ white; good/bad, etc.

I want to add I preferred to hear the story of a badly misbehaving youth getting a shake up rather
than the tale of a cyclist and kid being both seriously injured in a collision.

The rider agrees that he should have stopped the bike, which means he could have stopped the bike,
which means this was easily a tale where no one gets hurt, instead of some morality tale about an
adult getting satisfaction in frightening children.

M.

"Michael" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The rider agrees that he should have stopped the bike, which means he could have stopped the bike,
which means this was easily a tale where no one gets hurt, instead of some morality tale about an
adult getting satisfaction in frightening children.

Hindsight is always 20/20, or so they say. When I look back on the incident as the rider in question
it is easy to see that the whole situation could have been avoided if I had stopped in the street
well up the block. But this would have put me at risk from other traffic. I did not anticipate that
one of the kids would decide to step in front of me in the passing lane to dance a little jig. Now I
understand that fourteen year olds are likely to do anything in the middle of the street.

"Getting satisfaction in frightening children" is something that is has never even occurred to me
and I'm quite disgusted that you would even think of such a thing. My actions clearly indicated that
this was not the case. If that had been my in my nature and was my goal, I suppose I would have just
had a good laugh as I rode away. Instead, I turned around and went back to make sure he was ok. The
situation was a very serious one for me.

I suppose that if I'm ever in this situation again, I will stop at least 100 ft up the road and just
yell at them to get the hell out of the way until they move. That seems to be the only acceptable
solution to some of the posters around here.

-Buck

Buck' u n k m a i l g a l a x y c o r p . c o m @ said:

I suppose that if I'm ever in this situation again, I will stop at least 100 ft up the road and
just yell at them to get the hell out of the way until they move. That seems to be the only
acceptable solution to some of the posters around here.

Oh no! You could <gasp> offend them by doing that!

Seriously, though, that would be asking for trouble.

I'd say you did the best you could, and should probably keep it in mind (maybe go very slowly past)
or just avoid it by choosing an alternate route (terrible solution, IMO).

Of course, if you go very slowly past, then you're at risk for them attacking you or damaging your
bike or trailer.

Maybe you could go really fast, and give them a WIDE berth? You said there were two lanes in each
direction; try to fit into the automotive traffic in the left lane...

Quoted message said:

-Buck

--
Rick Onanian