Raising the Roof

AndROOb said:

There are 2 issues I am interested in understanding more about, and both are to do with 'raising the roof'.

When doing lactate threshold work, I have come to believe that there comes a point when you need to work on 'raising the roof' of your VO2max power, in order to continue improving your FT power. I am also aware that VO2max power is only improvable to a degree once a certain level of fitness is acquired. Will this then be what limits improvement with FT power?

The second issue that interests me is whether 'raising the roof' is something to consider at all power/time training levels. IOW, if I work on my 5 sec power, will this allow me to improve my 1 minute power, and will this, in turn, allow me to improve my 5 minute power, etc etc?

What's the difference between your 5 (4-6)min power in relation to your FTP and where do they sit in relation to each other on the power profiling table?

All training levels benefit adjacent levels to a degree. For your 1 min power it depends whether you have more headroom for improvement in the NMP component or the AC side of things. 1-5 min- if your AWC is improved by working on 1 min power then 5 min should come up a bit.

Now I'm not sure but if you raise your vo2max then you should be able to make more improvements through training to FTP before another leveling off. But I don't think that raising vo2max will automatically drag FTP up with it- to a degree but not linearly.

Also, as a side note Z5 work is much easier and beneficial when your FTP is closer to Vo2max.

Greg

gvanwagner said:

Also, as a side note Z5 work is much easier and beneficial when your FTP is closer to Vo2max.

Greg

Just curious, easier I can see but how is z5 work more beneficial when your FTP is closer to VO2max?

Thanks,
Justin

AndROOb said:

There are 2 issues I am interested in understanding more about, and both are to do with 'raising the roof'.

When doing lactate threshold work, I have come to believe that there comes a point when you need to work on 'raising the roof' of your VO2max power, in order to continue improving your FT power. I am also aware that VO2max power is only improvable to a degree once a certain level of fitness is acquired. Will this then be what limits improvement with FT power?

The second issue that interests me is whether 'raising the roof' is something to consider at all power/time training levels. IOW, if I work on my 5 sec power, will this allow me to improve my 1 minute power, and will this, in turn, allow me to improve my 5 minute power, etc etc?

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t307235.html

gvanwagner said:

What's the difference between your 5 (4-6)min power in relation to your FTP and where do they sit in relation to each other on the power profiling table?

Greg

My 5 minute power is 315w, whilst my FTP is ~240w, and my FTP is lower in relation to my 5 minute power on the PP table. I have also found this season that my AWC is generally higher than average, relative to my FTP.

I suffered a 'power drain' during July, and I am currently getting back on track for the Duo Normand team TT event on the 3rd of September(closed roads/support car - YEAH!). I have good headroom to work within on my FTP for this event, though my interest in this subject is more general, rather than personal.

AndROOb said:

My 5 minute power is 315w, whilst my FTP is ~240w, and my FTP is lower in relation to my 5 minute power on the PP table. I have also found this season that my AWC is generally higher than average, relative to my FTP.
.

How are you determining your AWC?

My 5 minute column is eight rows higher than my FTP and eleven rows higher than my one minute column.

xcmntgeek said:

Just curious, easier I can see but how is z5 work more beneficial when your FTP is closer to VO2max?

Thanks,
Justin

You can do a lot more of it both in a week and in a session. You can spend a lot more time at maximal cardiac output/vo2max where all the good stuff happens. Plus the higher your threshold is relative to vo2max the faster your Vo2 will to where you want in such an interval.

If you want to do ,say, 6x5(5 min rec.) at within 95% pVo2max and your FTP is low relative to vo2max than in theory your NP for the roughly 1 hr workout would be well over FTP.

Also, when you've maximized your gains from FTP then you need to "raise the roof" in order to continue to see gains in that area.

Woofer said:

How are you determining your AWC?

My 5 minute column is eight rows higher than my FTP and eleven rows higher than my one minute column.

My 1 minute column and FTP are at the same level, although I have not trained my 1 minute power. I generally find 1, 2, and 3 minute intervals easier to complete at a higher output than specified for the durations. I am using a Hunter Allen training program as a guage for these 3 interval types.

AndROOb said:

My 5 minute power is 315w, whilst my FTP is ~240w, and my FTP is lower in relation to my 5 minute power on the PP table. I have also found this season that my AWC is generally higher than average, relative to my FTP.

I suffered a 'power drain' during July, and I am currently getting back on track for the Duo Normand team TT event on the 3rd of September(closed roads/support car - YEAH!). I have good headroom to work within on my FTP for this event, though my interest in this subject is more general, rather than personal.

Well, your 5 Min power is 31% above FTP so it's probably worth trying to drag FTP up because you probably have more to gain there.

Also, are those numbers your current numbers or from before the "power drain". If after, the exact timing of your FTP test and your 5 min could change that ratio up quite a bit because it was during a time when you were quickly regaining fitness.

Also, as far as having a high AWC if you found that using the CP model then it could be V02max looking like a high AWC depending on how you tested it.

Additionally, your ratios are similar to mine (5/ftp= 1.38) so if your anything like me after a handful of crashes lead to some serious detraining, short term power stayed somewhat respectable while FTP dropped almost 50 watts. So getting back to fitness really meant doing a lot of FTP intervals and not touching Z5 too much- just 4-5 Z4 sessions/week.

Greg

4-5 L4 sessions per week?

I'm currently doing 3 including a 1x60 but if doing more might be possible and helpful...

Squint said:

4-5 L4 sessions per week?

I'm currently doing 3 including a 1x60 but if doing more might be possible and helpful...

Yeh, A combination of limited time (moving takes up a lot) also, I found that my 10 and shorter power durations really didn't take a huge hit with the detraining- certainly no more then could be explained by the 50 watts drop in FTP.

That's the main parameter that needed lots of work ASAP and Ive found that block training with that amount of L4 Gave me good gains- 1 month only because TSS was almost 900/wk. Once FTP is regained to a reasonable level then I start to do shorter or longer power levels.

4-5 /wk is not a balanced program but sometimes I need to do it. Kind of like the microwave oven mid season base in order to get back into (somewhat)racing shape ASAP

Plus there were a couple sustained 9-10% grades where I used to live I couldn't get a decent Z2/3 ride in because I was grinding up them and couldn't finish my long rides well.

gvanwagner said:

Additionally, your ratios are similar to mine (5/ftp= 1.38) so if your anything like me after a handful of crashes lead to some serious detraining, short term power stayed somewhat respectable while FTP dropped almost 50 watts. So getting back to fitness really meant doing a lot of FTP intervals and not touching Z5 too much- just 4-5 Z4 sessions/week.

Greg

50w is a big drop, makes me feel lucky - I dropped 10-15w, made worse by the heatwave we had over here in the UK. Interesting thing is I'm doing just the same as you at the mo' - 4-6 L4 sessions a week, but shortish to keep TSS down.
Even once I'm back to normal(240w), I plan to continue L4 blockwork, to see what kind of improvements I can get before the season folds.

Woofer, thanks for that link, this is what I'm trying to find out more about.
The question being, if VO2max training has a limit, is this then what limits FTP improvement?

AndROOb said:

Woofer, thanks for that link, this is what I'm trying to find out more about.
The question being, if VO2max training has a limit, is this then what limits FTP improvement?

Doesn't the second reply has the general answer? - it depends.