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RAGT Continues to win praise

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01 / Original postRAGT Continues to win praiseClovis Lark · 27 Jul 2004 02 / This pagePosts 1–18Page 1 of 1 · chronological order 03 / Latest replyPost #18Clovis Lark · 31 Jul 2004

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Road Cycling
Published
27 July 2004
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31 July 2004
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Clovis Lark
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Race-day nutritionTime trialsLance Armstrong

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  1. Original post
    Clovis Lark
    Archived post
    #1

    Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
    Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
    in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
    join the praise:

    RAGT Satisfied

    The small French RAGT Semences-MG Rover team embodied the role of underdog
    in this year's Tour de France, and though lacking in top ten results, team
    director sportif Jean-Luc Jonrond remains pleased with the effort. RAGT
    finished at the bottom the prize money total, but took consolation in
    having eight riders finish the race, having lost only Eddy Seigneur to the
    dreaded time delay in the mountains.

    "Let’s be positive and not lose sight of the fact that eight riders made
    it to the finish in Paris," Jonrond said. "Eight riders who were not sick
    and who gritted their teeth and who managed on the most difficult days to
    make it within the time limits.

    "As with all the staff, I am pleased with the performances of Ludovic
    Martin, Frédéric Finot and Sylvain Calzati," he added. "Looking back, I
    think we came out of it better than we had expected to at the start."

    Martin himself was pleased, particularly with his time trial effort on
    Alpe d'Huez, where he finished 30th, four minutes behind stage winner
    Lance Armstrong.

    "I got off to a bad start," Martin explained. "I thought I’d be out of the
    running in the first week because of my knee. I found the Pyrénées tough.
    Of course, I’m pleased with the way things worked out for me on Alpe
    d’Huez and my breakaway in the stage which finished in Le Grand-Bornand.
    Overall, I’m pleased with my Tour where I showed that I had a potential
    for the mountain stages."

    Report
  2. Richard Adams
    Archived post
    #2

    Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
    Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
    in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
    join the praise:

    RAGT Satisfied


    [s]

    yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
    still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
    dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
    just before you get the bonk.

    Report
  3. Clovis Lark
    Archived post
    #3

    [quote="Richard Adams"]Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
    Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
    in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
    join the praise:

    RAGT Satisfied


    [s][/quote]

    Quoted message said:

    yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
    still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
    dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
    just before you get the bonk.



    Glad you liked it! Cheers.

    Report
  4. RonSonic
    Archived post
    #4

    [quote="(Richard Adams)"]Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
    Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
    in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
    join the praise:

    RAGT Satisfied


    [s]

    yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
    still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
    dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
    just before you get the bonk.[/quote]

    Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of the other
    teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of podium girls and
    fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time on the bike and made it
    last as long as possible.

    Ron

    Report
  5. Clovis Lark
    Archived post
    #5
    RonSonic said:

    On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email hidden] (Richard Adams) wrote:

    [quote="Quoted message"][quote="Quoted message"]Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
    Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
    in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
    join the praise:

    RAGT Satisfied


    [s]

    yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
    still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
    dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
    just before you get the bonk.[/quote][/quote]

    Quoted message said:

    Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of


    the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
    podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
    on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.

    While it was indeed satire, the butt of the satire is the winners only
    matter view. As I posted elsewhere, I challenged one complainer to ask
    for a one on one race with Joly or Casper (can't remember whom) and see
    who the winner was. Anyone who saw the interviews with Martin or Jean Luc
    knows these guys took their race seriously. Except for Heulot's
    misfortune, the team raced start to finish intact. Martin set the
    standard up the Alpe until the top guns arrived. When RAGT placed all
    those riders at the back of the standings in the final time, it served to
    show how hard they had worked to stay in the race, that they had nothing
    left. Those are true heros of sport.

    Frank Shorter (former marathon champion), once commenting at the NY
    Marathon, made this salient point. While the race, per usual, focused on
    the leaders, he remarked that his admiration was for the average Joes and
    Janes who would finish in 5-6 or hours. He couldn't imagine running that
    long, or the dedication it must take just to see the finish line as a
    triumph.

    And then there was the fun of integrating the ludicrous (Armstrong's silly
    marking of Simeoni, Lemond's self imposed high profile, Ullrich's
    director's immature comments, Ferrari's orange juice line) into very real
    events that happened at the back of the race and thus showing how shallow
    the real incidents were. RAGT stayed in the race to the end. Each of the
    riders earned less than 1000Euros in prizes. I am impressed. They did it
    for nothing!

    Quoted message said:

    Ron

    Report
  6. RonSonic
    Archived post
    #6

    [quote="Clovis Lark"]

    RonSonic said:

    On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email hidden] (Richard Adams) wrote:



    [quote="Quoted message"][quote="Quoted message"]Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    > Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
    > Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
    > in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
    > join the praise:
    >
    > RAGT Satisfied
    >
    [s]

    yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
    still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
    dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
    just before you get the bonk.[/quote][/quote]

    Quoted message said:

    Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of


    the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
    podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
    on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.

    While it was indeed satire, the butt of the satire is the winners only
    matter view. As I posted elsewhere, I challenged one complainer to ask
    for a one on one race with Joly or Casper (can't remember whom) and see
    who the winner was. Anyone who saw the interviews with Martin or Jean Luc
    knows these guys took their race seriously. Except for Heulot's
    misfortune, the team raced start to finish intact. Martin set the
    standard up the Alpe until the top guns arrived. When RAGT placed all
    those riders at the back of the standings in the final time, it served to
    show how hard they had worked to stay in the race, that they had nothing
    left. Those are true heros of sport.

    Frank Shorter (former marathon champion), once commenting at the NY
    Marathon, made this salient point. While the race, per usual, focused on
    the leaders, he remarked that his admiration was for the average Joes and
    Janes who would finish in 5-6 or hours. He couldn't imagine running that
    long, or the dedication it must take just to see the finish line as a
    triumph.

    And then there was the fun of integrating the ludicrous (Armstrong's silly
    marking of Simeoni, Lemond's self imposed high profile, Ullrich's
    director's immature comments, Ferrari's orange juice line) into very real
    events that happened at the back of the race and thus showing how shallow
    the real incidents were. RAGT stayed in the race to the end. Each of the
    riders earned less than 1000Euros in prizes. I am impressed. They did it
    for nothing![/quote]

    I read it on a couple different levels and enjoyed the dry humor of each. I am a
    connoisseur and it takes more than one level of irony to satisfy.

    Sincere POV: I can't begin to ride with those guys, I doubt anyone else here
    can. If I tried the result'd be road kill with handlebars. The lanterne rouge
    really is an honor. The guys who got that are way ahead of the ones who abandon
    and have surely ripped their guts out beating the cut off times.

    Ullrich described one stage as "a day when nobody deserved to lose." That
    applies to really all those guys, every day. Every one of them has guts,
    determination and talent we should envy and aspire to. I don't know the team
    organizations that well, but I can bet the RAGT guys had a harder race to ride
    than USPS or CSC or Phonak or the rest. There were no chefs and helicoptors
    waiting for them, hell, probably not even a team bus with massage tables. They
    deserve praise. They finished with eight riders! That's worthy enough that even
    on the disgracefully cheap scale of TdF prize money it was worth a bonus. The
    TdF organizers should feel ashamed to cut a check that small for any team who
    finishes.

    But with the heroic effort there is also the quixotic futility that cannot be
    ignored and the ironic humor that follows.

    Anyway, I didn't read your reports as simply ragging on them. And suppose my
    response wasn't sufficiently tongue in cheek to make that clear. I really do
    hope the RAGT riders have earned some money making opportunities with this ride,
    they deserve FAR better than the prize money.

    Ron
    BTW: those trees were planted for the benefit of Voight, Ullrich and Kloden.

    Report
  7. Clovis Lark
    Archived post
    #7
    RonSonic said:

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:19:49 +0000 (UTC), Clovis Lark
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    [quote="Quoted message"][quote="Quoted message"]

    RonSonic said:

    On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email hidden] (Richard Adams) wrote:



    [quote="Quoted message"]>Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    >> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
    >> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
    >> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
    >> join the praise:
    >>
    >> RAGT Satisfied
    >>
    >[s]
    >
    >yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
    >still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
    >dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
    >just before you get the bonk.[/quote]

    Quoted message said:

    Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of


    the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
    podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
    on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.

    While it was indeed satire, the butt of the satire is the winners only
    matter view. As I posted elsewhere, I challenged one complainer to ask
    for a one on one race with Joly or Casper (can't remember whom) and see
    who the winner was. Anyone who saw the interviews with Martin or Jean Luc
    knows these guys took their race seriously. Except for Heulot's
    misfortune, the team raced start to finish intact. Martin set the
    standard up the Alpe until the top guns arrived. When RAGT placed all
    those riders at the back of the standings in the final time, it served to
    show how hard they had worked to stay in the race, that they had nothing
    left. Those are true heros of sport.

    Frank Shorter (former marathon champion), once commenting at the NY
    Marathon, made this salient point. While the race, per usual, focused on
    the leaders, he remarked that his admiration was for the average Joes and
    Janes who would finish in 5-6 or hours. He couldn't imagine running that
    long, or the dedication it must take just to see the finish line as a
    triumph.

    And then there was the fun of integrating the ludicrous (Armstrong's silly
    marking of Simeoni, Lemond's self imposed high profile, Ullrich's
    director's immature comments, Ferrari's orange juice line) into very real
    events that happened at the back of the race and thus showing how shallow
    the real incidents were. RAGT stayed in the race to the end. Each of the
    riders earned less than 1000Euros in prizes. I am impressed. They did it
    for nothing![/quote][/quote]

    Quoted message said:

    I read it on a couple different levels and enjoyed the dry humor of
    each. I am a > connoisseur and it takes more than one level of irony to
    satisfy.



    Quoted message said:

    Sincere POV: I can't begin to ride with those guys, I doubt anyone else here
    can. If I tried the result'd be road kill with handlebars. The lanterne rouge
    really is an honor. The guys who got that are way ahead of the ones who abandon
    and have surely ripped their guts out beating the cut off times.



    Forget not: the lanterne rouge is a seriously competitive sprinter.
    Casper came in 6th in Paris garnering 20 points, ahead of Cooke and
    O'Grady. What was his personal prize total?

    Quoted message said:

    Ullrich described one stage as "a day when nobody deserved to lose." That
    applies to really all those guys, every day. Every one of them has guts,
    determination and talent we should envy and aspire to. I don't know the team
    organizations that well, but I can bet the RAGT guys had a harder race to ride
    than USPS or CSC or Phonak or the rest. There were no chefs



    I'm sure they had a team chef. They all do.

    Quoted message said:

    and helicoptors
    waiting for them, hell, probably not even a team bus with massage tables. They
    deserve praise. They finished with eight riders! That's worthy enough that even
    on the disgracefully cheap scale of TdF prize money it was worth a bonus. The
    TdF organizers should feel ashamed to cut a check that small for any team who
    finishes.



    They are still on salary. That also magnifies their commitment. The wage
    they contract for comes regardless of whether they complete the course.
    So abandonment would have hurt them not. They chose to stay and ride for
    what worked out to be a bonus of 300$ a week..

    Quoted message said:

    But with the heroic effort there is also the quixotic futility that cannot be
    ignored and the ironic humor that follows.



    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, I didn't read your reports as simply ragging on them. And suppose my
    response wasn't sufficiently tongue in cheek to make that clear. I really do
    hope the RAGT riders have earned some money making opportunities with this ride,
    they deserve FAR better than the prize money.



    Surely you mean RAGTing? And you are quite correct. I was in no way
    ragging. Kudos for them! Their work serves as reminder of the nameless
    amateurs the founding fathers of the Tour used to solicit so the field
    would be sufficiently large to look like a real race. These were the guys
    who rode around france, slept in barracks, dined en masse in a mess hall
    and got nothing except the distinction of having ridden. To ride the
    entire distance competitively, i.e. in pain, with no chance for glory is
    real didication to sport.

    Quoted message said:

    Ron
    BTW: those trees were planted for the benefit of Voight, Ullrich and Kloden.




    As I noted! And, sending Ullrich for ecstacy was truly turning a stallion
    into a mule!

    Report
  8. Richard Adams
    Archived post
    #8

    Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    [quote="Quoted message"]

    RonSonic said:

    On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email hidden] (Richard Adams) wrote:



    [quote="Quoted message"][quote="Quoted message"]Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
    > Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
    > Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
    > in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
    > join the praise:
    >
    > RAGT Satisfied
    >
    [s]

    yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
    still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
    dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
    just before you get the bonk.[/quote][/quote]

    Quoted message said:

    Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of


    the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
    podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
    on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.

    While it was indeed satire, the butt of the satire is the winners only
    matter view. As I posted elsewhere, I challenged one complainer to ask
    for a one on one race with Joly or Casper (can't remember whom) and see
    who the winner was. Anyone who saw the interviews with Martin or Jean Luc
    knows these guys took their race seriously. Except for Heulot's
    misfortune, the team raced start to finish intact. Martin set the
    standard up the Alpe until the top guns arrived. When RAGT placed all
    those riders at the back of the standings in the final time, it served to
    show how hard they had worked to stay in the race, that they had nothing
    left. Those are true heros of sport.

    Frank Shorter (former marathon champion), once commenting at the NY
    Marathon, made this salient point. While the race, per usual, focused on
    the leaders, he remarked that his admiration was for the average Joes and
    Janes who would finish in 5-6 or hours. He couldn't imagine running that
    long, or the dedication it must take just to see the finish line as a
    triumph.

    And then there was the fun of integrating the ludicrous (Armstrong's silly
    marking of Simeoni, Lemond's self imposed high profile, Ullrich's
    director's immature comments, Ferrari's orange juice line) into very real
    events that happened at the back of the race and thus showing how shallow
    the real incidents were. RAGT stayed in the race to the end. Each of the
    riders earned less than 1000Euros in prizes. I am impressed. They did it
    for nothing![/quote]

    I believe there was a phrase, attributed to ALL who finish the tour as
    Giants of the Road, which would include all finishing riders of RAGT
    and the Lantern Rouge. I don't recall the original source of that
    comment, though believe it was french.

    Report
  9. Ryan Cousineau
    Archived post
    #9

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    [quote="Clovis Lark"]

    RonSonic said:

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:19:49 +0000 (UTC), Clovis Lark
    <[email hidden]> wrote:



    [quote="Quoted message"][quote="Quoted message"]RonSonic <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email hidden] (Richard Adams)
    > wrote:

    >>Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>news:<[email hidden]>...
    >>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
    >>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the
    >>> field
    >>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately
    >>> to
    >>> join the praise:
    >>>
    >>> RAGT Satisfied
    >>>
    >>[s]
    >>
    >>yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
    >>still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
    >>dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
    >>just before you get the bonk.

    > Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
    the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
    podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
    on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    hope the RAGT riders have earned some money making opportunities with this
    ride,
    they deserve FAR better than the prize money.

    Surely you mean RAGTing? And you are quite correct. I was in no way
    ragging. Kudos for them! Their work serves as reminder of the nameless
    amateurs the founding fathers of the Tour used to solicit so the field
    would be sufficiently large to look like a real race. These were the guys
    who rode around france, slept in barracks, dined en masse in a mess hall
    and got nothing except the distinction of having ridden. To ride the
    entire distance competitively, i.e. in pain, with no chance for glory is
    real didication to sport.



    Well, at the risk of crashing RAGT's tribute, I'd like to point out that
    while I and others who noted RAGT's record in this Tour may admire their
    determination to finish the race, and while I think that, at least once
    the starter's flag drops, mercenary concerns have little to do with the
    effort put out by most racers, the real problem is not how RAGT did, but
    the fact that they necessarily displaced another team from the tour.

    Kelme, for example, would probably have been a better choice, among many
    others. What were the RAGT riders riding for that drove them to the end?
    Well, for one thing, riders with a reputation for quitting don't get
    their contracts renewed. For another, every day they ride and show up on
    the Tour is another day of exposure for their sponsors, who are probably
    well-pleased with the simple fact that the team got into the Tour.

    I totally admire anyone who makes an athletic effort, and yes, these
    guys are racing against themselves much more than they are racing Lance
    and Jan, just as much as the 5-hour marathoner is racing the clock and
    their own personal best. Heck, I'm a Cat 4 nothing: I'm racing to be the
    among the best of the fourth-best bunch of local racers. Not exactly
    inspiring stuff when you put it that way, but I'm having fun.

    The problem is that RAGT was not a participant in an open marathon or a
    local amateur event. They were in the Tour. Logistics and safety dictate
    that only a limited number of teams can enter. Common sense and the
    record suggests there would have been better choices than RAGT.

    For an example of an overachieving team, look at Brioches La Boulangere,
    who put Voeckler in yellow for an incredibly long stretch, defended the
    jersey long beyond the expectations of anyone, and finished admirably in
    the team classification, even ahead of Saeco.

    The trouble with RAGT is they really never made a mark on this tour. I
    don't recall a significant breakaway in which they participated. The
    highest award they won was a "combativity" award one day, and that, as
    one person noted here, on a day when it was "won cheaply" (I suspect
    through a suicidal breakaway during the early part of one of the really
    epic mountain stages).

    One of the reasons for letting some of the weaker French teams in is
    because these no-hopers tend to drive breakaways when more cautious
    teams looking for bigger prizes (GC teams, sprinter teams) would hold
    back out of tactical prudence. The teams with nothing to lose can then
    drive the race pace because, while no threat to those grander prizes,
    they can still hope for a stage win or at least some TV time. RAGT
    really didn't seize the opportunity.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com
    President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

    Report
  10. Howard Kveck
    Archived post
    #10

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Clovis Lark said:

    RonSonic <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Ullrich described one stage as "a day when nobody deserved to lose." That
    applies to really all those guys, every day. Every one of them has guts,
    determination and talent we should envy and aspire to. I don't know the
    team organizations that well, but I can bet the RAGT guys had a harder
    race to ride than USPS or CSC or Phonak or the rest. There were no chefs

    I'm sure they had a team chef. They all do.

    Well, Alessio-Bianchi didn't, at least according to Scott Sunderland. Go
    to this page then about halfway down.
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/features/diaries/scott.php?id=sc
    ott0441

    That does seem pretty odd to me. I wonder if they have one when they do
    the Giro.

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    So far, so good, so what?

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

    Report
  11. RonSonic
    Archived post
    #11

    [quote="Ryan Cousineau"]In article <[email hidden]>,
    [quote="Clovis Lark"]

    RonSonic said:

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:19:49 +0000 (UTC), Clovis Lark
    <[email hidden]> wrote:



    [quote="Quoted message"]>RonSonic <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >> On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email hidden] (Richard Adams)
    >> wrote:
    >
    >>>Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>>news:<[email hidden]>...
    >>>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
    >>>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the
    >>>> field
    >>>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately
    >>>> to
    >>>> join the praise:
    >>>>
    >>>> RAGT Satisfied
    >>>>
    >>>[s]
    >>>
    >>>yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
    >>>still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
    >>>dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
    >>>just before you get the bonk.
    >
    >> Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
    >the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
    >podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
    >on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.[/quote][/quote]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    hope the RAGT riders have earned some money making opportunities with this
    ride,
    they deserve FAR better than the prize money.

    Surely you mean RAGTing? And you are quite correct. I was in no way
    ragging. Kudos for them! Their work serves as reminder of the nameless
    amateurs the founding fathers of the Tour used to solicit so the field
    would be sufficiently large to look like a real race. These were the guys
    who rode around france, slept in barracks, dined en masse in a mess hall
    and got nothing except the distinction of having ridden. To ride the
    entire distance competitively, i.e. in pain, with no chance for glory is
    real didication to sport.



    Well, at the risk of crashing RAGT's tribute, I'd like to point out that
    while I and others who noted RAGT's record in this Tour may admire their
    determination to finish the race, and while I think that, at least once
    the starter's flag drops, mercenary concerns have little to do with the
    effort put out by most racers, the real problem is not how RAGT did, but
    the fact that they necessarily displaced another team from the tour.

    Kelme, for example, would probably have been a better choice, among many
    others. What were the RAGT riders riding for that drove them to the end?
    Well, for one thing, riders with a reputation for quitting don't get
    their contracts renewed. For another, every day they ride and show up on
    the Tour is another day of exposure for their sponsors, who are probably
    well-pleased with the simple fact that the team got into the Tour.

    I totally admire anyone who makes an athletic effort, and yes, these
    guys are racing against themselves much more than they are racing Lance
    and Jan, just as much as the 5-hour marathoner is racing the clock and
    their own personal best. Heck, I'm a Cat 4 nothing: I'm racing to be the
    among the best of the fourth-best bunch of local racers. Not exactly
    inspiring stuff when you put it that way, but I'm having fun.

    The problem is that RAGT was not a participant in an open marathon or a
    local amateur event. They were in the Tour. Logistics and safety dictate
    that only a limited number of teams can enter. Common sense and the
    record suggests there would have been better choices than RAGT.

    For an example of an overachieving team, look at Brioches La Boulangere,
    who put Voeckler in yellow for an incredibly long stretch, defended the
    jersey long beyond the expectations of anyone, and finished admirably in
    the team classification, even ahead of Saeco.

    The trouble with RAGT is they really never made a mark on this tour. I
    don't recall a significant breakaway in which they participated. The
    highest award they won was a "combativity" award one day, and that, as
    one person noted here, on a day when it was "won cheaply" (I suspect
    through a suicidal breakaway during the early part of one of the really
    epic mountain stages).

    One of the reasons for letting some of the weaker French teams in is
    because these no-hopers tend to drive breakaways when more cautious
    teams looking for bigger prizes (GC teams, sprinter teams) would hold
    back out of tactical prudence. The teams with nothing to lose can then
    drive the race pace because, while no threat to those grander prizes,
    they can still hope for a stage win or at least some TV time. RAGT
    really didn't seize the opportunity.[/quote]

    They didn't displace anyone. The tour was still a team short this year.

    In just about any competition there are guys just motoring around out there
    hoping for something good to happen. These guys stayed out of trouble, got a
    hell of a work out. No they didn't win anything much but did contest a few
    things. Good on them. I don't really know the team, but hopefully there are some
    young guys who learned and got stronger. Which I think was the promoter's plan,
    get some French guys out there who might develop into something. Hell, it's been
    20 years since a Frenchman won this thing and I can't blame them for being a
    little desperate for hope.

    I continue to reserve the right to make fun of their futility.

    Ron

    Report
  12. Sonarrat
    Archived post
    #12

    in article [email hidden], Ryan Cousineau at
    [email hidden] wrote on 7/29/04 8:36 PM:

    Quoted message said:

    The trouble with RAGT is they really never made a mark on this tour. I
    don't recall a significant breakaway in which they participated. The
    highest award they won was a "combativity" award one day, and that, as
    one person noted here, on a day when it was "won cheaply" (I suspect
    through a suicidal breakaway during the early part of one of the really
    epic mountain stages).

    Actually that was not on a mountain stage. I don't disagree with your
    overall judgment, but your facts are not straight.

    RAGT's proud moments in this Tour came in two consecutive days: the Alpe
    d'Huez time trial, where Ludovic Martin put in a very fast early time which
    stood on the top of the leaderboard for over 2 hours, and the next day -
    where the same guy went in a break with Gilberto Simoni and several other
    climbers, and stayed with them over the Col de Madeleine, taking third place
    on that mountain.

    And it is very impressive that they finished with eight riders. Last year's
    last place team was Vini Caldirola, placed way, way behind Jean Delatour..
    and they finished with 4 riders.

    -Sonarrat.

    Report
  13. Clovis Lark
    Archived post
    #13
    Ryan Cousineau said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote:

    [quote="Quoted message"][quote="Quoted message"]

    RonSonic said:

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:19:49 +0000 (UTC), Clovis Lark
    <[email hidden]> wrote:



    [quote="Quoted message"]>RonSonic <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >> On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email hidden] (Richard Adams)
    >> wrote:
    >
    >>>Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>>news:<[email hidden]>...
    >>>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
    >>>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the
    >>>> field
    >>>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately
    >>>> to
    >>>> join the praise:
    >>>>
    >>>> RAGT Satisfied
    >>>>
    >>>[s]
    >>>
    >>>yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
    >>>still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
    >>>dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
    >>>just before you get the bonk.
    >
    >> Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
    >the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
    >podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
    >on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    hope the RAGT riders have earned some money making opportunities with this
    ride,
    they deserve FAR better than the prize money.

    Surely you mean RAGTing? And you are quite correct. I was in no way
    ragging. Kudos for them! Their work serves as reminder of the nameless
    amateurs the founding fathers of the Tour used to solicit so the field
    would be sufficiently large to look like a real race. These were the guys
    who rode around france, slept in barracks, dined en masse in a mess hall
    and got nothing except the distinction of having ridden. To ride the
    entire distance competitively, i.e. in pain, with no chance for glory is
    real didication to sport.



    Quoted message said:

    Well, at the risk of crashing RAGT's tribute, I'd like to point out that
    while I and others who noted RAGT's record in this Tour may admire their
    determination to finish the race, and while I think that, at least once
    the starter's flag drops, mercenary concerns have little to do with the
    effort put out by most racers, the real problem is not how RAGT did, but
    the fact that they necessarily displaced another team from the tour.



    So did US Postal...

    So did Domina Vacanze... So did Cofidis and Fassa Bortolo... These last 3
    were all over 4 hours back. Someone is going to be last. Someone is
    going to fall apart.

    Quoted message said:

    Kelme, for example, would probably have been a better choice, among many



    After Manzano's comments, no way Kelme was coming. You might as well
    complain that doping controls are evil, because they deny certain teams a
    place.

    Quoted message said:

    others. What were the RAGT riders riding for that drove them to the end?
    Well, for one thing, riders with a reputation for quitting don't get
    their contracts renewed. For another, every day they ride and show up on
    the Tour is another day of exposure for their sponsors, who are probably
    well-pleased with the simple fact that the team got into the Tour.



    Quoted message said:

    I totally admire anyone who makes an athletic effort, and yes, these
    guys are racing against themselves much more than they are racing Lance
    and Jan, just as much as the 5-hour marathoner is racing the clock and
    their own personal best. Heck, I'm a Cat 4 nothing: I'm racing to be the
    among the best of the fourth-best bunch of local racers. Not exactly
    inspiring stuff when you put it that way, but I'm having fun.



    Quoted message said:

    The problem is that RAGT was not a participant in an open marathon or a
    local amateur event. They were in the Tour. Logistics and safety dictate
    that only a limited number of teams can enter. Common sense and the
    record suggests there would have been better choices than RAGT.



    Do you think another team would have brought a rider who's time would have
    set the standard up Alpe d'Huez for the bulk of that TT?

    Quoted message said:

    For an example of an overachieving team, look at Brioches La Boulangere,
    who put Voeckler in yellow for an incredibly long stretch, defended the
    jersey long beyond the expectations of anyone, and finished admirably in
    the team classification, even ahead of Saeco.



    They were there. RAGT didn't leave them out.

    Quoted message said:

    The trouble with RAGT is they really never made a mark on this tour. I
    don't recall a significant breakaway in which they participated. The
    highest award they won was a "combativity" award one day, and that, as
    one person noted here, on a day when it was "won cheaply" (I suspect
    through a suicidal breakaway during the early part of one of the really
    epic mountain stages).



    Quoted message said:

    One of the reasons for letting some of the weaker French teams in is
    because these no-hopers tend to drive breakaways when more cautious
    teams looking for bigger prizes (GC teams, sprinter teams) would hold
    back out of tactical prudence. The teams with nothing to lose can then
    drive the race pace because, while no threat to those grander prizes,
    they can still hope for a stage win or at least some TV time. RAGT
    really didn't seize the opportunity.



    Alpe d'Huez...


    Quoted message said:

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com
    President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

    Report
  14. Clovis Lark
    Archived post
    #14
    RonSonic said:

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:36:55 -0700, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:

    [quote="Quoted message"][quote="Quoted message"]In article <[email hidden]>,
    [quote="Clovis Lark"]RonSonic <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:19:49 +0000 (UTC), Clovis Lark
    > <[email hidden]> wrote:

    >>RonSonic <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >>> On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email hidden] (Richard Adams)
    >>> wrote:
    >>
    >>>>Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>>>news:<[email hidden]>...
    >>>>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
    >>>>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the
    >>>>> field
    >>>>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately
    >>>>> to
    >>>>> join the praise:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> RAGT Satisfied
    >>>>>
    >>>>[s]
    >>>>
    >>>>yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
    >>>>still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
    >>>>dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
    >>>>just before you get the bonk.
    >>
    >>> Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
    >>the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
    >>podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
    >>on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.[/quote]

    Quoted message said:

    > hope the RAGT riders have earned some money making opportunities with this
    > ride,
    > they deserve FAR better than the prize money.

    Surely you mean RAGTing? And you are quite correct. I was in no way
    ragging. Kudos for them! Their work serves as reminder of the nameless
    amateurs the founding fathers of the Tour used to solicit so the field
    would be sufficiently large to look like a real race. These were the guys
    who rode around france, slept in barracks, dined en masse in a mess hall
    and got nothing except the distinction of having ridden. To ride the
    entire distance competitively, i.e. in pain, with no chance for glory is
    real didication to sport.



    Well, at the risk of crashing RAGT's tribute, I'd like to point out that
    while I and others who noted RAGT's record in this Tour may admire their
    determination to finish the race, and while I think that, at least once
    the starter's flag drops, mercenary concerns have little to do with the
    effort put out by most racers, the real problem is not how RAGT did, but
    the fact that they necessarily displaced another team from the tour.

    Kelme, for example, would probably have been a better choice, among many
    others. What were the RAGT riders riding for that drove them to the end?
    Well, for one thing, riders with a reputation for quitting don't get
    their contracts renewed. For another, every day they ride and show up on
    the Tour is another day of exposure for their sponsors, who are probably
    well-pleased with the simple fact that the team got into the Tour.

    I totally admire anyone who makes an athletic effort, and yes, these
    guys are racing against themselves much more than they are racing Lance
    and Jan, just as much as the 5-hour marathoner is racing the clock and
    their own personal best. Heck, I'm a Cat 4 nothing: I'm racing to be the
    among the best of the fourth-best bunch of local racers. Not exactly
    inspiring stuff when you put it that way, but I'm having fun.

    The problem is that RAGT was not a participant in an open marathon or a
    local amateur event. They were in the Tour. Logistics and safety dictate
    that only a limited number of teams can enter. Common sense and the
    record suggests there would have been better choices than RAGT.

    For an example of an overachieving team, look at Brioches La Boulangere,
    who put Voeckler in yellow for an incredibly long stretch, defended the
    jersey long beyond the expectations of anyone, and finished admirably in
    the team classification, even ahead of Saeco.

    The trouble with RAGT is they really never made a mark on this tour. I
    don't recall a significant breakaway in which they participated. The
    highest award they won was a "combativity" award one day, and that, as
    one person noted here, on a day when it was "won cheaply" (I suspect
    through a suicidal breakaway during the early part of one of the really
    epic mountain stages).

    One of the reasons for letting some of the weaker French teams in is
    because these no-hopers tend to drive breakaways when more cautious
    teams looking for bigger prizes (GC teams, sprinter teams) would hold
    back out of tactical prudence. The teams with nothing to lose can then
    drive the race pace because, while no threat to those grander prizes,
    they can still hope for a stage win or at least some TV time. RAGT
    really didn't seize the opportunity.[/quote][/quote]

    Quoted message said:

    They didn't displace anyone. The tour was still a team short this year.



    Quoted message said:

    In just about any competition there are guys just motoring around out there
    hoping for something good to happen. These guys stayed out of trouble, got a
    hell of a work out. No they didn't win anything much but did contest a few
    things. Good on them. I don't really know the team, but hopefully there are some
    young guys who learned and got stronger. Which I think was the promoter's plan,
    get some French guys out there who might develop into something. Hell, it's been
    20 years since a Frenchman won this thing and I can't blame them for being a
    little desperate for hope.



    And national development, you'll see it next month in the US Open, is an
    obligation of such high profile sporting events.

    Quoted message said:

    I continue to reserve the right to make fun of their futility.



    Amen!

    Quoted message said:

    Ron

    Report
  15. Clovis Lark
    Archived post
    #15
    Howard Kveck said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    RonSonic <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Ullrich described one stage as "a day when nobody deserved to lose." That
    applies to really all those guys, every day. Every one of them has guts,
    determination and talent we should envy and aspire to. I don't know the
    team organizations that well, but I can bet the RAGT guys had a harder
    race to ride than USPS or CSC or Phonak or the rest. There were no chefs

    I'm sure they had a team chef. They all do.

    Quoted message said:

    Well, Alessio-Bianchi didn't, at least according to Scott Sunderland. Go
    to this page then about halfway down.
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/features/diaries/scott.php?id=sc
    ott0441

    You mean, they were hanging out at McDo's?!!!

    Quoted message said:

    That does seem pretty odd to me. I wonder if they have one when they do
    the Giro.

    One wonders, what with all the doping controls, the fears of something
    they won't be able to mask entering a rider's system from an outside
    source...

    Quoted message said:

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Quoted message said:

    So far, so good, so what?

    Quoted message said:

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

    Report
  16. Ryan Cousineau
    Archived post
    #16

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Sonarrat said:

    in article [email hidden], Ryan Cousineau at
    [email hidden] wrote on 7/29/04 8:36 PM:

    Quoted message said:

    The trouble with RAGT is they really never made a mark on this tour. I
    don't recall a significant breakaway in which they participated. The
    highest award they won was a "combativity" award one day, and that, as
    one person noted here, on a day when it was "won cheaply" (I suspect
    through a suicidal breakaway during the early part of one of the really
    epic mountain stages).

    Actually that was not on a mountain stage. I don't disagree with your
    overall judgment, but your facts are not straight.

    RAGT's proud moments in this Tour came in two consecutive days: the Alpe
    d'Huez time trial, where Ludovic Martin put in a very fast early time which
    stood on the top of the leaderboard for over 2 hours, and the next day -
    where the same guy went in a break with Gilberto Simoni and several other
    climbers, and stayed with them over the Col de Madeleine, taking third place
    on that mountain.

    D'oh! I stand corrected. And yes, at least they got into one good break.

    I'm only semi-impressed by Martin's 2 hours atop the leaderboard. The
    secret to doing that is to either perform well above your level in the
    TT, or grossly underachieve before the TT so you have a really early
    starting time and set a standard for a bunch of sprinters and third-tier
    domestiques.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com
    President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

    Report
  17. Sonarrat
    Archived post
    #17

    in article [email hidden], Richard Adams at
    [email hidden] wrote on 7/29/04 11:40 AM:

    [quote="Quoted message"]Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...
    [quote="Quoted message"]

    RonSonic said:

    On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email hidden] (Richard Adams) wrote:



    [quote="Quoted message"]> Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email hidden]>...
    >> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
    >> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
    >> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
    >> join the praise:
    >>
    >> RAGT Satisfied
    >>
    > [s]
    >
    > yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
    > still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
    > dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
    > just before you get the bonk.[/quote]

    Quoted message said:

    Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of


    the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
    podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
    on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.

    While it was indeed satire, the butt of the satire is the winners only
    matter view. As I posted elsewhere, I challenged one complainer to ask
    for a one on one race with Joly or Casper (can't remember whom) and see
    who the winner was. Anyone who saw the interviews with Martin or Jean Luc
    knows these guys took their race seriously. Except for Heulot's
    misfortune, the team raced start to finish intact. Martin set the
    standard up the Alpe until the top guns arrived. When RAGT placed all
    those riders at the back of the standings in the final time, it served to
    show how hard they had worked to stay in the race, that they had nothing
    left. Those are true heros of sport.

    Frank Shorter (former marathon champion), once commenting at the NY
    Marathon, made this salient point. While the race, per usual, focused on
    the leaders, he remarked that his admiration was for the average Joes and
    Janes who would finish in 5-6 or hours. He couldn't imagine running that
    long, or the dedication it must take just to see the finish line as a
    triumph.

    And then there was the fun of integrating the ludicrous (Armstrong's silly
    marking of Simeoni, Lemond's self imposed high profile, Ullrich's
    director's immature comments, Ferrari's orange juice line) into very real
    events that happened at the back of the race and thus showing how shallow
    the real incidents were. RAGT stayed in the race to the end. Each of the
    riders earned less than 1000Euros in prizes. I am impressed. They did it
    for nothing![/quote]

    I believe there was a phrase, attributed to ALL who finish the tour as
    Giants of the Road, which would include all finishing riders of RAGT
    and the Lantern Rouge. I don't recall the original source of that
    comment, though believe it was french.[/quote]

    You know who impresses me most? Well, a couple of people. Peter Farazijn
    of Cofidis had only a couple of hours' notice to get to the Tour de France
    when Matt White crashed in practice, and he still finished in Paris. And
    Matt Wilson was throwing up for several days and he didn't quit either.
    These are great men.

    -Sonarrat.

    Report
  18. Clovis Lark
    Archived post
    #18
    Sonarrat said:

    in article [email hidden], Richard Adams at
    [email hidden] wrote on 7/29/04 11:40 AM:

    [quote="Quoted message"][quote="Quoted message"]Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...
    [quote="Quoted message"]RonSonic <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email hidden] (Richard Adams) wrote:

    >> Clovis Lark <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >> news:<[email hidden]>...
    >>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
    >>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
    >>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
    >>> join the praise:
    >>>
    >>> RAGT Satisfied
    >>>
    >> [s]
    >>
    >> yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
    >> still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
    >> dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
    >> just before you get the bonk.

    > Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
    the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
    podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
    on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.

    While it was indeed satire, the butt of the satire is the winners only
    matter view. As I posted elsewhere, I challenged one complainer to ask
    for a one on one race with Joly or Casper (can't remember whom) and see
    who the winner was. Anyone who saw the interviews with Martin or Jean Luc
    knows these guys took their race seriously. Except for Heulot's
    misfortune, the team raced start to finish intact. Martin set the
    standard up the Alpe until the top guns arrived. When RAGT placed all
    those riders at the back of the standings in the final time, it served to
    show how hard they had worked to stay in the race, that they had nothing
    left. Those are true heros of sport.

    Frank Shorter (former marathon champion), once commenting at the NY
    Marathon, made this salient point. While the race, per usual, focused on
    the leaders, he remarked that his admiration was for the average Joes and
    Janes who would finish in 5-6 or hours. He couldn't imagine running that
    long, or the dedication it must take just to see the finish line as a
    triumph.

    And then there was the fun of integrating the ludicrous (Armstrong's silly
    marking of Simeoni, Lemond's self imposed high profile, Ullrich's
    director's immature comments, Ferrari's orange juice line) into very real
    events that happened at the back of the race and thus showing how shallow
    the real incidents were. RAGT stayed in the race to the end. Each of the
    riders earned less than 1000Euros in prizes. I am impressed. They did it
    for nothing![/quote]

    I believe there was a phrase, attributed to ALL who finish the tour as
    Giants of the Road, which would include all finishing riders of RAGT
    and the Lantern Rouge. I don't recall the original source of that
    comment, though believe it was french.[/quote][/quote]

    Quoted message said:

    You know who impresses me most? Well, a couple of people. Peter Farazijn
    of Cofidis had only a couple of hours' notice to get to the Tour de France
    when Matt White crashed in practice, and he still finished in Paris. And
    Matt Wilson was throwing up for several days and he didn't quit either.
    These are great men.



    Or fools...

    Quoted message said:

    -Sonarrat.

    Report

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