racing turns

Marion Helfrich said:

I don't need to know this, because I am far from a race-type swimmer, but I am curious. Do
competitive swimmers doing breaststroke and fly do underwater (flip-type) turns or just turn at
the surface and push off the wall?

Thanks!

Marny

Both fly and breast require a two-hand touch at the wall which precludes a flip turn.

no flip turn (as for back and free) with fly and breast. that would = a DQ.

Marion Helfrich <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't need to know this, because I am far from a race-type swimmer, but

I

Quoted message said:

am curious. Do competitive swimmers doing breaststroke and fly do underwater (flip-type) turns or
just turn at the surface and push off the wall?

Thanks!

Marny

Mark P said:

Marion Helfrich said:

I don't need to know this, because I am far from a race-type swimmer, but I am curious. Do
competitive swimmers doing breaststroke and fly do underwater (flip-type) turns or just turn at
the surface and push off the wall?

Thanks!

Marny

Both fly and breast require a two-hand touch at the wall which precludes a flip turn.

It's /possible/ to do a legal flip turn, but you have to touch with both hands first, and leave the
wall on your front, hardly likely to give a competitive advantage.
--
Brian D

I noticed in one of the womens' events at Barcelona the other day (was it the womens 200-meter
medley?) a Chinese swimmer (I think the winner), didn't do a flip turn in the backstroke. She just
touched the wall with her hand and sort of swivelled around while facing up. The Japanese swimmer
did a very serious flip turn, touching the wall only with her feet and shooting out underwater doing
a dolphin kick. I would think that at that level of competition the flip turn would be standard. Is
the scoot-around turn fast enough?--it seemed to be adequate for the Chinese swimmer.

Some of the young kids at my swimming center can do a sort of flip turn in the backstroke where they
don't turn face down first. I think an adult would break his neck doing it.

Brian D said:

Mark P said:

Marion Helfrich said:

I don't need to know this, because I am far from a race-type swimmer, but I am curious. Do
competitive swimmers doing breaststroke and fly do underwater (flip-type) turns or just turn
at the surface and push off the wall?

Thanks!

Marny

Both fly and breast require a two-hand touch at the wall which precludes a flip turn.

It's /possible/ to do a legal flip turn, but you have to touch with both hands first, and leave
the wall on your front, hardly likely to give a competitive advantage.

I often see butterflyers do it during workout, though. It avoids the stress on the shoulders
at the wall.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Martin W. Smith said:

Brian D said:

Mark P said:

Both fly and breast require a two-hand touch at the wall which precludes a flip turn.

It's /possible/ to do a legal flip turn, but you have to touch with both hands first, and leave
the wall on your front, hardly likely to give a competitive advantage.

I often see butterflyers do it during workout, though. It avoids the stress on the shoulders at
the wall.

Trouble with that is it can become the norm, and be done when racing, so I try to instill into my
swimmers to always practice the correct turns.
--
Brian D

Brian D said:

Martin W. Smith said:

Brian D said:

On 22 Jul, Mark P <[email hidden]> wrote:

>
> Both fly and breast require a two-hand touch at the wall which precludes a flip turn.
>
It's /possible/ to do a legal flip turn, but you have to touch with both hands first, and
leave the wall on your front, hardly likely to give a competitive advantage.

I often see butterflyers do it during workout, though. It avoids the stress on the shoulders at
the wall.

Trouble with that is it can become the norm, and be done when racing, so I try to instill into my
swimmers to always practice the correct turns.

Good point, but I would specifically allow the butterfly flip turn in conditioning sets, because I
think doing too many of them, especially when fatigued, can put too much stress on shoulder muscles
and tendons, and the result can be shoulder pain of the kind experienced by the triathlete doing
open turns in freestyle with his left arm all the time. As long as the coach makes it abundantly
clear which sets swimmers are allowed to do butterfly flip turns in and which sets they are not,
then I don't think there is a problem. Plus, when a swimmer makes a mistake like that in a race and
gets DQ'd, he won't do it again.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:40:42 +0200, Martin W. Smith wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Both fly and breast require a two-hand touch at the wall which precludes a flip turn.

It's /possible/ to do a legal flip turn, but you have to touch with both hands first, and leave
the wall on your front, hardly likely to give a competitive advantage.

I often see butterflyers do it during workout, though. It avoids the stress on the shoulders at
the wall.

martin

I fooled around with doing flip turns for a while and found them, when they were good, to be faster.
They're just so much more finnicky then an open turn, much smaller tolerance on the timing. It's
been a while, though, and I wear contacts now so maybe it wouldn't be as bad.

--Mike

[email hidden] (Chris) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I noticed in one of the womens' events at Barcelona the other day (was it the womens 200-meter
medley?) a Chinese swimmer (I think the winner), didn't do a flip turn in the backstroke. She just
touched the wall with her hand and sort of swivelled around while facing up. The Japanese swimmer
did a very serious flip turn, touching the wall only with her feet and shooting out underwater
doing a dolphin kick. I would think that at that level of competition the flip turn would be
standard. Is the scoot-around turn fast enough?--it seemed to be adequate for the Chinese swimmer.

Some of the young kids at my swimming center can do a sort of flip turn in the backstroke where
they don't turn face down first. I think an adult would break his neck doing it.

Reading Maglischo (older version) I see now that the flip turn is illegal in the IM. In addition to
the "open turn" (that the Chinese swimmer used), he gives three more possible turns that are faster,
but which he says are rarely used due to lack of practice (somersault turn, modified Naber turn, and
modifiled roll turn--similar to the flip turn).