Racing flats for marathons

This is probably a better strategy than racing the uphills.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

steve common said:

According to Pfitzinger & Douglas, you're a top candidate for wearing
flats for a marathon if the following hold :
- capable of 2:55 (females) or 2:40 (males)
- weigh less than 140lbs (females) or 160lbs (males)
- relatively injury-free history
- good biomechanics

Any thoughts?

(1) I'd think in terms of BMI, not height.
(2) Why different times for men and women ?

These rules of thumb are always problematic. I think if you can comfortably
get through a long run or a half-marathon with flats, and you do a reasonable
amount of training in flats (e.g. 2 speed workouts a week including
warmup/cooldown) you're a serious candidate for wearing them in the marathon.

If you're wearing a mid weight flat (say 8oz) with a lowered heel for a
half marathon, I don't see why you couldn't wear a beefier flat with a
little more heel for a marathon.

Most of the more competitive runners I know of who wear flats at all also
wear them in the marathon.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

steve common said:

According to Pfitzinger & Douglas, you're a top candidate for wearing
flats for a marathon if the following hold :
- capable of 2:55 (females) or 2:40 (males)
- weigh less than 140lbs (females) or 160lbs (males)
- relatively injury-free history
- good biomechanics

Any thoughts?

(1) I'd think in terms of BMI, not height.
(2) Why different times for men and women ?

These rules of thumb are always problematic. I think if you can comfortably
get through a long run or a half-marathon with flats, and you do a reasonable
amount of training in flats (e.g. 2 speed workouts a week including
warmup/cooldown) you're a serious candidate for wearing them in the marathon.

If you're wearing a mid weight flat (say 8oz) with a lowered heel for a
half marathon, I don't see why you couldn't wear a beefier flat with a
little more heel for a marathon.

Most of the more competitive runners I know of who wear flats at all also
wear them in the marathon.

Check. Although in my case "competitive" doesn't equate to
particularly fast...

I'm 6"2 and 11 stone (154lb) thus BMI exactly 20 - I'm around the
three hour mark in the three marathons I've done so far. I wore flats
(Tiger Paws and then Fila Racers) for the second and third with no ill
effects - indeed I wore flats for all my long runs in preparation
(generally two or three 20+ milers per month).

I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone with a higher BMI to try it - my
own first try at wearing flats, several years ago when I was about a
stone (14lb) heavier, was a painful mistake, even for shorter
distances.

Philip Brown said:

I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone with a higher BMI to try it - my
own first try at wearing flats, several years ago when I was about a
stone (14lb) heavier, was a painful mistake, even for shorter
distances.

My BMI is quite a bit higher (I'm a few inches shorter and a little
heavier). In fact, some world class athlets have higher BMI than you.
But I'm comfortable running in flats -- use them for all races, speedwork,
all training runs on treadmill, and some training runs on softer tracks.
I'm in light trainers for most other things.

There are a lot of factors that make it good or bad to wear flats,
but generally, if they feel comfortable, then why not ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

My BM

You people have a fascination with your BM's. I don't understand it.

"steve common" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

According to Pfitzinger & Douglas, you're a top candidate for wearing
flats for a marathon if the following hold :
- capable of 2:55 (females) or 2:40 (males)
- weigh less than 140lbs (females) or 160lbs (males)
- relatively injury-free history
- good biomechanics

If you wear them in shorter races, and can run your long 20+ milers in them
comfortably, then give it a go. Regardless of BMI or speed. You may get
minute or two out of it.

Heck, I've raced a trail 50 miler in Nike Mariah's (an ancient racing flat).

-- Dan

"steve common" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

According to Pfitzinger & Douglas, you're a top candidate for wearing
flats for a marathon if the following hold :
- capable of 2:55 (females) or 2:40 (males)
- weigh less than 140lbs (females) or 160lbs (males)
- relatively injury-free history
- good biomechanics

Any thoughts?

I think the finishing time requirements are too fast. I would
put it more at about BQ time or faster, provided you had
good form and weren't too heavy.

I don't want to sound a little macelroy-ish, but I am suprised
at what seems to be a pretty relaxed weight 'standard' for flats
as opposed to the (my opinion) stringent times. I would have
guessed 145 - 150lbs to be the upper limit for average height
males (under 6'😉 for a marathon distance.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON)
www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I don't want to sound a little macelroy-ish, but I am suprised
at what seems to be a pretty relaxed weight 'standard' for flats
as opposed to the (my opinion) stringent times. I would have
guessed 145 - 150lbs to be the upper limit for average height
males (under 6'😉 for a marathon distance.

That's because you're so damn skinny! :-)
FWIW, I was about 140# when I was racing in flats....

You should wear flats whenever you can. Todays shoes suck and cause
most problems you see runners with.

http://www.nwfootankle.com/New_Folder/Mar99%20p050-076%20Ropdf.pdf

steve common said:

According to Pfitzinger & Douglas, you're a top candidate for wearing
flats for a marathon if the following hold :
- capable of 2:55 (females) or 2:40 (males)
- weigh less than 140lbs (females) or 160lbs (males)
- relatively injury-free history
- good biomechanics

Any thoughts?

Good stuff! I often thought that was true.

Dan Stumpus said:

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I don't want to sound a little macelroy-ish, but I am suprised
at what seems to be a pretty relaxed weight 'standard' for flats
as opposed to the (my opinion) stringent times. I would have
guessed 145 - 150lbs to be the upper limit for average height
males (under 6'😉 for a marathon distance.

That's because you're so damn skinny! :-)
FWIW, I was about 140# when I was racing in flats....

Jeeezus, the last time I weighed #140 I was 12 years old.
I think my bare bones weigh more than that. You guys must comb your feathers rather than hair.

Malcontent

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 02:44:56 GMT, "Dan Stumpus" >

Quoted message said:

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I don't want to sound a little macelroy-ish, but I am suprised
at what seems to be a pretty relaxed weight 'standard' for flats
as opposed to the (my opinion) stringent times. I would have
guessed 145 - 150lbs to be the upper limit for average height
males (under 6'😉 for a marathon distance.

That's because you're so damn skinny! :-)
FWIW, I was about 140# when I was racing in flats....

Jeeezus, the last time I weighed #140 I was 12 years old.
I think my bare bones weigh more than that. You guys must comb your
feathers rather than hair.

No feathers, but hair? That stuff has weight, Mal! It had
to go a while ago. ;-)

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON)
www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

SwStudio said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 02:44:56 GMT, "Dan Stumpus" >

Quoted message said:

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote

> I don't want to sound a little macelroy-ish, but I am suprised
> at what seems to be a pretty relaxed weight 'standard' for flats
> as opposed to the (my opinion) stringent times. I would have
> guessed 145 - 150lbs to be the upper limit for average height
> males (under 6'😉 for a marathon distance.

That's because you're so damn skinny! :-)
FWIW, I was about 140# when I was racing in flats....

Jeeezus, the last time I weighed #140 I was 12 years old.
I think my bare bones weigh more than that. You guys must comb your
feathers rather than hair.

No feathers, but hair? That stuff has weight, Mal! It had
to go a while ago. ;-)

cheers,

Hehehe,

That reminds me of our speed group leader. He shaves his whole body before a marathon.
Does it really make you go faster?

Malcontent

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

That reminds me of our speed group leader. He shaves his whole body before a
marathon.
Does it really make you go faster?

It doesn't even make a significant difference for cycling--I've hear 1/4
of a second per mile for cycling. Cyclists do it so it's easier to clean
up road rash.

But it might help because it makes him *think* he's faster. Or maybe he
just likes to do it and this gives him an excuse. :-)

Oh, and if he shaves his WHOLE body, he's definitely doing it because he
likes to, although I don't want to know how you know he shaves his unit
and ass. . . .

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That reminds me of our speed group leader. He shaves his whole body before

a

Quoted message said:

marathon.

He's a pervert.

I think that if you want to switch to a faster shoe for a marathon then
just move only one level in terms of weight, stability and cushioning.
For example: If you normally use a heavy duty motion control shoe then
switch to a Stability shoe, if you use a stability shoe then switch to
a performance trainer with some stability features, if you run in
cushioned shoes then switch to a performance trainer that has a little
more cushioning and less stabilty. If you're used to running in
performance trainers then racing in a flat will be no big deal. Just
don't make too large of a jump in what you're used to.

And be sure to work up to a test run of at least 15-18 miles to avoid a
nasty race day surprise.

steve common said:

According to Pfitzinger & Douglas, you're a top candidate for wearing
flats for a marathon if the following hold :
- capable of 2:55 (females) or 2:40 (males)
- weigh less than 140lbs (females) or 160lbs (males)
- relatively injury-free history
- good biomechanics

Any thoughts?

I think that if you want to switch to a faster shoe for a marathon then
just move only one level in terms of weight, stability and cushioning.
For example: If you normally use a heavy duty motion control shoe then
switch to a Stability shoe, if you use a stability shoe then switch to
a performance trainer with some stability features, if you run in
cushioned shoes then switch to a performance trainer that has a little
more cushioning and less stabilty. If you're used to running in
performance trainers then racing in a flat will be no big deal. Just
don't make too large of a jump in what you're used to.

And be sure to work up to a test run of at least 15-18 miles to avoid a
nasty race day surprise.

steve common said:

According to Pfitzinger & Douglas, you're a top candidate for wearing
flats for a marathon if the following hold :
- capable of 2:55 (females) or 2:40 (males)
- weigh less than 140lbs (females) or 160lbs (males)
- relatively injury-free history
- good biomechanics

Any thoughts?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:53:09 -0500, "SwStudio" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 02:44:56 GMT, "Dan Stumpus" >
>
>"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote
>
>> I don't want to sound a little macelroy-ish, but I am suprised
>> at what seems to be a pretty relaxed weight 'standard' for flats
>> as opposed to the (my opinion) stringent times. I would have
>> guessed 145 - 150lbs to be the upper limit for average height
>> males (under 6'😉 for a marathon distance.
>
>That's because you're so damn skinny! :-)
>FWIW, I was about 140# when I was racing in flats....
>
>
Jeeezus, the last time I weighed #140 I was 12 years old.
I think my bare bones weigh more than that. You guys must comb your
feathers rather than hair.

No feathers, but hair? That stuff has weight, Mal! It had
to go a while ago. ;-)

cheers,

Hehehe,

That reminds me of our speed group leader. He shaves his whole body before
a marathon.
Does it really make you go faster?

I think that stuff comes from the cycling world, and they do it
more to make it easier to cover/treat road rash than for speed
reasons. The only place shaving really counts for time is in the
water. Triathletes certainly have a real reason to remove body
hair.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON)
www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

In article <[email hidden]>,

SwStudio said:

Quoted message said:

That reminds me of our speed group leader. He shaves his whole body before
a marathon.
Does it really make you go faster?

I think that stuff comes from the cycling world, and they do it
more to make it easier to cover/treat road rash than for speed
reasons. The only place shaving really counts for time is in the
water. Triathletes certainly have a real reason to remove body
hair.

Only when the water is too warm to allow wetsuits! And even then, I'm
sure most of them don't shave their WHOLE bodies.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson