Racing bike vs tourer?

John Burns [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

I do about 20 miles most lunchtimes (more at weekends) and
as a result of this I'm reasonably fit now. I'm using an
Edinburgh Country tourer and I'm very happy with it. I
generally do the shopping on the way back so pannier space
is very handy. Plus I often get rained on so proper
mudgaurds are nice.

But I'm thinking about a racing bike for weekend use.
Never really spent much time on one. Two questions:

1) What's the difference in comfort like with racing vs
tourer tyres. Roads aren't great up here. How easily do
racing tyres puncture (I've never had a puncture on my
tourer)?

A modern alumium frame with unraked sprint forks and high
pressure tyres will rattle you. The only time I've had
tyres puncture was when I left them too long before
replacing them. The initial tyres on my Giant OCR were
Hutchinson Carbon Comps. They were very nice and stuck
well to the road, but did so by being soft compound and
wore out quickly.

I don't find the Giant too comfortable over long distances
(50miles+) but that's probably as much to do with the fact
that I've never really set up the riding position properly.
<Hmmm.... must do that at some point!>

Quoted message said:

2) How much will going from a 14-15ish kg bike to a 10kg
bike improve my average speed. Right now I'm averaging
about 18+ around a route with lots of hills.

I would probably expect to see you push that up by a few mph
at least. What will really make you grin is the acceleration
(Assuming reasonably light wheels).

I think the geometry will also make it easier to tuck in for
downhills. I reached a point long ago where my limiting
factor on long downhills was fear.

Jon

John Burns said:

I do about 20 miles most lunchtimes (more at weekends) and
as a result of this I'm reasonably fit now. I'm using an
Edinburgh Country tourer and I'm very happy with it. I
generally do the shopping on the way back so pannier space
is very handy. Plus I often get rained on so proper
mudgaurds are nice.

But I'm thinking about a racing bike for weekend use.
Never really spent much time on one. Two questions:

1) What's the difference in comfort like with racing vs
tourer tyres. Roads aren't great up here. How easily do
racing tyres puncture (I've never had a puncture on my
tourer)?

2) How much will going from a 14-15ish kg bike to a 10kg
bike improve my average speed. Right now I'm averaging
about 18+ around a route with lots of hills.

I continually have this debate myself - I ride a Dawes
Sonoran, with the supplied 40mm tyres, which can't do much
for the rolling performance of the bike.

And yet, I've done 170km of road riding in a day; taken it
on all but the Black Route in Thetford Forest Park, ridden
the Peddars Way, and (today) the Marriot way; so for
general, all round on and off road performance - a
treking/touring solution is excellent. Just don't try and
do it in a time frame - I'm probably "reasonably" fit now
(done 2800km so far this year) and still can't better a
23kph average.

--
Chris

John Burns said:

I do about 20 miles most lunchtimes (more at weekends) and
as a result of this I'm reasonably fit now. I'm using an
Edinburgh Country tourer and I'm very happy with it. I
generally do the shopping on the way back so pannier space
is very handy. Plus I often get rained on so proper
mudgaurds are nice.

But I'm thinking about a racing bike for weekend use.
Never really spent much time on one. Two questions:

Quoted message said:

1) What's the difference in comfort like with racing vs
tourer tyres. Roads aren't great up here. How easily do
racing tyres puncture (I've never had a puncture on my
tourer)?

Both my racers and tourer have hard tyres but the frames
are different geometry so react differently to the bumps.
The tourer is more comfortable . All my bikes are steel so
they will be more comfortable over bumps than many
aluminium bikes.

Quoted message said:

2) How much will going from a 14-15ish kg bike to a 10kg
bike improve my average speed. Right now I'm averaging
about 18+ around a route with lots of hills.

Dunno, my average is about the same on all bikes, I don't
really care much for speed, use my car for that.

John, I take it you want the truth and not cycling myth??

1.The frame material makes NO difference to the ride.
"Experts" cannot tell what they are riding if the frame is
covered up.

2. The geometry of the frame affects stability and comfort
to some extent, the tyre pressure etc. do have an effect.

3. 18mph plus is fast cycling. I used to do it years ago but
wouldn't try now as it is a recipe for getting fed up.
Just enjoy yourself.

4. The weight will make almost NO difference on the flat.
It will on hills but not a lot. At touring pace 1lb
extra will delay you 30 seconds climbing 2000 ft at the
same effort. Not a lot, though it would lose you the
tour de France.

5. Don't believe any bumpf about "responsive" etc. It's all
in the mind.

If you don't believe this read Jobst Brandt's cycling FAQs
on the net.

Quoted message said:

Dunno, my average is about the same on all bikes, I don't
really care much for speed, use my car for that.

LOL!...that's a classic line, really is.....I might just
remember that one, especially now I'm well past 40 :-)

Garry

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Burns [email hidden] opined the
following...

Quoted message said:

I do about 20 miles most lunchtimes (more at weekends)
and as a result of this I'm reasonably fit now. I'm
using an Edinburgh Country tourer and I'm very happy
with it. I generally do the shopping on the way back so
pannier space is very handy. Plus I often get rained on
so proper mudgaurds are nice.

But I'm thinking about a racing bike for weekend use.
Never really spent much time on one. Two questions:

1) What's the difference in comfort like with racing vs
tourer tyres. Roads aren't great up here. How easily
do racing tyres puncture (I've never had a puncture
on my tourer)?

A modern alumium frame with unraked sprint forks and high
pressure tyres will rattle you. The only time I've had
tyres puncture was when I left them too long before
replacing them. The initial tyres on my Giant OCR were
Hutchinson Carbon Comps. They were very nice and stuck
well to the road, but did so by being soft compound and
wore out quickly.

I don't find the Giant too comfortable over long distances
(50miles+) but that's probably as much to do with the fact
that I've never really set up the riding position
properly. <Hmmm.... must do that at some point!>

Quoted message said:

2) How much will going from a 14-15ish kg bike to a 10kg
bike improve my average speed. Right now I'm
averaging about 18+ around a route with lots of
hills.

I would probably expect to see you push that up by a few
mph at least. What will really make you grin is the
acceleration (Assuming reasonably light wheels).

I think the geometry will also make it easier to tuck in
for downhills. I reached a point long ago where my
limiting factor on long downhills was fear.

Jon

Your average is very good if you ask me.

Graham

"MSeries" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Burns said:

I do about 20 miles most lunchtimes (more at weekends)
and as a result of this I'm reasonably fit now. I'm
using an Edinburgh Country tourer and I'm very happy
with it. I generally do the shopping on the way back so
pannier space is very handy. Plus I often get rained on
so proper mudgaurds are nice.

But I'm thinking about a racing bike for weekend use.
Never really spent much time on one. Two questions:

Quoted message said:

1) What's the difference in comfort like with racing vs
tourer tyres. Roads aren't great up here. How easily
do racing tyres puncture (I've never had a puncture
on my tourer)?

Both my racers and tourer have hard tyres but the frames
are different geometry so react differently to the bumps.
The tourer is more comfortable

.

Quoted message said:

All my bikes are steel so they will be more comfortable
over bumps than

many

Quoted message said:

aluminium bikes.

Bit of a bold statement is it not ?

Graham

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2) How much will going from a 14-15ish kg bike to a 10kg
bike improve my average speed. Right now I'm
averaging about 18+ around a route with lots of
hills.

Dunno, my average is about the same on all bikes, I don't
really care much for speed, use my car for that.

garryb59 said:

Quoted message said:

Dunno, my average is about the same on all bikes, I don't
really care much for speed, use my car for that.

LOL!...that's a classic line, really is.....I might just
remember that one, especially now I'm well past 40 :-)

Garry

I surfed into some American guys site where he had several
short articles about his cycling. One was ranting on about
those cyclists who are obcessed with going faster, he
likened them to motorists in the morning commute, getting
irate as they wait at lights then charge as fast as possible
to the next one. Cycling is my stress reliever I certainly
will not worry about going faster or failing to.

Quoted message said:

I do about 20 miles most lunchtimes (more at weekends)

an Edinburgh Country tourer (I've

Quoted message said:

never had a puncture on my tourer)?

2) How much will going from a 14-15ish kg bike to a 10kg
bike improve my average speed. Right now I'm averaging
about 18+ around a route with lots of hills.

I need to know what kind of job allows time and energy for
over an hour of pretty fast cycling and cooling off time and
do you have lunch at all, every day?Your commuting miles are
on top, and you do it on a clunker (like mine-a perfectly
good choice)with tyres of Chobham armour. Do you use a cycle
computer? You don't need a lighter bike, you need an ejector
seat. Having said that I would comment that you would find a
racer less adaptable less comfortable, harder on the hills
unless you get a triple, wet in rain, probably twitchier at
the front, more expensive for a light one, and slightly
faster up the hills, but who's watching?It could be that you
might look more attractive on an expensive racer, but you
might lose the satisfaction of burning off lance look-alikes
on your shopping bike. TerryJ

Quoted message said:

I need to know what kind of job allows time and energy for
over an hour of pretty fast cycling and cooling off time
and do you have lunch at all, every day?Your commuting
miles are on top, and you do it on a clunker (like mine-a
perfectly good choice)with tyres of Chobham armour.

Self employed, sell unix workstations, binoculars and BMW
parts on the internet. Live in Aviemore :-) Work from home.

Quoted message said:

Do you use a cycle computer?

Yes. I have a Shimano Flightdeck. Love the way I can tell
which gear I'm in without looking between my legs :-)

Quoted message said:

Having said that I would comment that you would find a
racer less adaptable less comfortable, harder on the hills
unless you get a triple, wet in rain, probably twitchier
at the front, more expensive for a light one, and slightly
faster up the hills, but who's watching?It could be that
you might look more attractive on an expensive racer, but
you might lose the satisfaction of burning off lance look-
alikes on your shopping bike.

If only :-)

--
Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :-) Email:
[email hidden], John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny
Scotland Web : unixnerd.demon.co.ukunixnerd.demon.co.ukOpen ↗ - The
Ultimate BMW Homepage! Need Sun or HP Unix kit?
unixnerd.demon.co.ukunix.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Your average is very good if you ask me.

They why do folk on racing bikes keep overtaking me? :-)

Twice in the last fortnight I've been blown away big time
by other riders. Both looked a big more professional /
fitter than me. My small 5'6" build is maybe what I need to
upgrade most!

--
Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :-) Email:
[email hidden], John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny
Scotland Web : unixnerd.demon.co.ukunixnerd.demon.co.ukOpen ↗ - The
Ultimate BMW Homepage! Need Sun or HP Unix kit?
unixnerd.demon.co.ukunix.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I surfed into some American guys site where he had several
short articles about his cycling. One was ranting on about
those cyclists who are obcessed with going faster, he
likened them to motorists in the morning commute, getting
irate as they wait at lights then charge as fast as
possible to the next one. Cycling is my stress reliever I
certainly will not worry about going faster or failing to.

I suppose it's my inexperience. One always wonders if the
grass is greener on the other side (i.e. racing bikes) :-)

--
Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :-) Email:
[email hidden], John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny
Scotland Web : unixnerd.demon.co.ukunixnerd.demon.co.ukOpen ↗ - The
Ultimate BMW Homepage! Need Sun or HP Unix kit?
unixnerd.demon.co.ukunix.htmlOpen ↗

John Burns [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your average is very good if you ask me.

They why do folk on racing bikes keep overtaking me? :-)

Twice in the last fortnight I've been blown away big time
by other riders. Both looked a big more professional /
fitter than me. My small 5'6" build is maybe what I need
to upgrade most!

Find an old, cheap racer. Replace the rear cassette with a
single fixed gear at a ratio slightly higher than you
normally ride. Ride. After a few months, up the ratio. Then
get a lightweight racer and burn them up!

Jon

Gear=F3id =D3 Laoi/Garry Lee [email hidden] opined the
following...

Quoted message said:

John, I take it you want the truth and not cycling myth??
=20
1.The frame material makes NO difference to the ride.
"Experts" cannot te=

ll

Quoted message said:

what they are riding if the frame is covered up.

I used to maintain this line until I bought the Giant. I
admit that=20 there are more than a few differences so no
side by side comparisons=20 with my old racer are
possible, but the steel framed fixer with similar=20
pressure in the tyres does feel less painful over cobbles
/ other rough=20 surfaces.

A more important consideration is frame life. A steel one
_will_ survive=20 a greater pounding before fracture.

Quoted message said:

2. The geometry of the frame affects stability and comfort
to some extent=

,

Quoted message said:

the tyre pressure etc. do have an effect.

True.

Quoted message said:

3. 18mph plus is fast cycling. I used to do it years ago
but wouldn't try now as it is a recipe for getting fed
up. Just enjoy yourself.

It could be that the original poster enjoys himself at
18mph+. I'm=20 getting into the gentle touring thing on the
bent, but there is much=20 pleasure to be had from the
sprint up the hill from work on the fixer.

Quoted message said:

5. Don't believe any bumpf about "responsive" etc. It's
all in the mind.

Surely this comes down to frame geometry and weight. The
biggest=20 difference will probably be the wheels.
Accelerating a lightweight wheel=20 takes less effort than
accelerating a heavy one. Most reasonably specced=20 racers
come with semi-decent wheels.
=20

Quoted message said:

If you don't believe this read Jobst Brandt's cycling FAQs
on the net.

Or ask around. Or more importantly, try one. What one
person=20 (knowledgeable or otherwise) has to say on the
matter has no bearing on=20 personal experience. If you
find that the =A35000 Cannondale Six13 makes=20 you faster
then so be it.

Jon

"Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote:

: 3. 18mph plus is fast cycling. I used to do it years ago
: but wouldn't try now as it is a recipe for getting fed
: up. Just enjoy yourself.

Actually, that's a warm down/easy ride pace on the flat 🙂
People are different, and cycle tourists idea of what is
"fast" is very different indeed from racing cyclists.

: 4. The weight will make almost NO difference on the flat.
: It will on hills but not a lot.

True enough.

: 5. Don't believe any bumpf about "responsive" etc. It's
: all in the mind.

This just isn't true. A good race bike makes you push
harder, go faster. A good touring bike says "sit back,
potter and keep going till you get to China". Neither is
better than the other, but they are different.

So, to answer the OP - sounds like what you are doing is
short, fast burns for fun. Get a pukka race bike, put some
top quality tyres on it, and enjoy.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune clune.orgclune.orgOpen ↗ "Technolibertarians make a
philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

John Burns said:

Quoted message said:

I need to know what kind of job allows time and energy
for over an hour of pretty fast cycling and cooling off
time and do you have lunch at all, every day?Your
commuting miles are on top, and you do it on a clunker
(like mine-a perfectly good choice)with tyres of Chobham
armour.

Self employed, sell unix workstations, binoculars and
BMW parts on the internet. Live in Aviemore :-) Work
from home.

Oooh, envy. I guess you mean second user Unix workstations,
like Sparcstations etc? I always wanted my very own SGI O2,
but I guess I can't justify it.

John Burns said:

Quoted message said:

Your average is very good if you ask me.

They why do folk on racing bikes keep overtaking me? :-)

Twice in the last fortnight I've been blown away big time
by other riders. Both looked a big more professional /
fitter than me. My small 5'6" build is maybe what I need
to upgrade most!

You don't say if your small stature equates to light weight
or not. ;-) Other things being equal, lighter riders have an
advantage over heavier ones when climbing. I think it's
probably true to say that lighter riders also benefit more
from lighter bikes than heavier riders do. I think you'll
ride your hilly routes faster on a lighter bike.

Before committing yourself to the purchase of an (expensive)
racing bike why not try taking the rack and mudguards off
your tourer to see if there's an improvement?

--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He has Van Gogh's ear
for music." - Billy Wilder www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

"Arthur Clune" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

: 5. Don't believe any bumpf about "responsive" etc. It's
: all in the mind.

This just isn't true. A good race bike makes you push
harder, go faster. A good touring bike says "sit back,
potter and keep going till you get to China". Neither is
better than the other, but they are different.

Seconded.

My (no longer entirely) new bike isn't an all-out race bike
(more audax-y), but it's definitely faster than the tourer.
However how much of this is due to it encouraging me to
pedal harder I don't know - there's a bit of positive
feedback, in that it feels good when you pedal hard, so you
do it some more.

(the front wheel is the same as the tourer, and the back
isn't that much lighter, so I don't reckon it's weight of
wheels. I'd go for geometry being the prime difference).

BTW I went for the audax-type compromise rather than
having a separate tourer and racer, so I still have one
bike which fits all my solo riding needs. (two tandems for
other stuff :-) )

cheers, clive

John Burns said:

I do about 20 miles most lunchtimes (more at weekends) and
as a result of this I'm reasonably fit now. I'm using an
Edinburgh Country tourer and I'm very happy with it. I
generally do the shopping on the way back so pannier space
is very handy. Plus I often get rained on so proper
mudgaurds are nice.

But I'm thinking about a racing bike for weekend use.
Never really spent much time on one. Two questions:

1) What's the difference in comfort like with racing vs
tourer tyres.

You'll get a firmer ride with racing tyres, perhaps much
firmer, but you'll quickly forget about that if the bike is
otherwise comfortable. It'll be worth changing the tyres
straight away for more supple and/or wider ones if that's
possible. BTW, bars can be raised up a bit if you like:
ahead stem can be flipped or changed, for a start. Also the
gearing can be lowered by changing cassette or chainrings.
These slight compromises will not negate all the advantages.

Quoted message said:

Roads aren't great up here. How easily do racing tyres
puncture (I've never had a puncture on my tourer)?

Punctures (and cuts) with top racing tyres is particularly a
problem in the wet, I find, otherwise not too bad. Pinch
flats won't be an issue if tyres are well pumped up or if
tyres on the wide side (for racers) are used. But in any
case, yes, you will get some punctures, but fixing them is
easy -- a price well worth paying.

Quoted message said:

2) How much will going from a 14-15ish kg bike to a 10kg
bike improve my average speed. Right now I'm averaging
about 18+ around a route with lots of hills.

Probably less than 2.5 mph (perhaps less than 1.5) but
you'll probably enjoy the rides more and feel like going
even further. You'll also be forced to carry less luggage
so that real weight difference can end up much more than
4 or 5 kg.

You obviously ride hard so why not get a bike that uses more
of your energy? Go for it! :-) I'm so glad I did. Went for
years only riding a tourer before getting a racer: the
amount of cycling and distances then increased dramatically.

Consider one with a triple chainset to deal with those
hills.

~PB