Racing bike vs tourer?

John Burns [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

I do about 20 miles most lunchtimes (more at weekends) and as a result
of this I'm reasonably fit now. I'm using an Edinburgh Country tourer
and I'm very happy with it. I generally do the shopping on the way back
so pannier space is very handy. Plus I often get rained on so proper
mudgaurds are nice.

But I'm thinking about a racing bike for weekend use. Never really spent
much time on one. Two questions:

1) What's the difference in comfort like with racing vs tourer tyres.
Roads aren't great up here. How easily do racing tyres puncture (I've
never had a puncture on my tourer)?

A modern alumium frame with unraked sprint forks and high pressure tyres
will rattle you. The only time I've had tyres puncture was when I left
them too long before replacing them. The initial tyres on my Giant OCR
were Hutchinson Carbon Comps. They were very nice and stuck well to the
road, but did so by being soft compound and wore out quickly.

I don't find the Giant too comfortable over long distances (50miles+)
but that's probably as much to do with the fact that I've never really
set up the riding position properly. <Hmmm.... must do that at some
point!>

Quoted message said:

2) How much will going from a 14-15ish kg bike to a 10kg bike improve my
average speed. Right now I'm averaging about 18+ around a route with
lots of hills.

I would probably expect to see you push that up by a few mph at least.
What will really make you grin is the acceleration (Assuming reasonably
light wheels).

I think the geometry will also make it easier to tuck in for downhills.
I reached a point long ago where my limiting factor on long downhills
was fear.

Jon

in message <[email hidden]>, John Burns

(') said:

I do about 20 miles most lunchtimes (more at weekends) and as a result
of this I'm reasonably fit now. I'm using an Edinburgh Country tourer
and I'm very happy with it. I generally do the shopping on the way
back so pannier space is very handy. Plus I often get rained on so
proper mudgaurds are nice.

But I'm thinking about a racing bike for weekend use. Never really
spent much time on one. Two questions:

1) What's the difference in comfort like with racing vs tourer tyres.
Roads aren't great up here. How easily do racing tyres puncture (I've
never had a puncture on my tourer)?

You've slightly more weight on your hands; the tyres are somewhat less
forgiving, so you really feel bad road surfaces particularly in your
hands; very very hard tyres rarely puncture, but when they do it's more
of a hassle because where you might ride a fatter tyre with a slot leak
for a mile or two between pumpings up, with a little skinny racing tyre
you really can't do that and you *have* to change it. And if you don't
have a racing tyre very very hard it will puncture, because there's a
lot less structure there than with a touring type tyre.

Quoted message said:

2) How much will going from a 14-15ish kg bike to a 10kg bike improve
my average speed. Right now I'm averaging about 18+ around a route
with lots of hills.

Several things will improve your speed. Weight is only one of them.
Balance is another and stiffness is a third. A racing bike with steeper
angles and a stiffer frame really is much more responsive than a more
relaxed, more forgiving geometry.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Ring of great evil
Small one casts it into flame
Bringing rise of Men ;; gonzoron

John Burns said:

I do about 20 miles most lunchtimes (more at weekends) and as a result
of this I'm reasonably fit now. I'm using an Edinburgh Country tourer
and I'm very happy with it. I generally do the shopping on the way back
so pannier space is very handy. Plus I often get rained on so proper
mudgaurds are nice.

But I'm thinking about a racing bike for weekend use. Never really spent
much time on one. Two questions:

1) What's the difference in comfort like with racing vs tourer tyres.
Roads aren't great up here. How easily do racing tyres puncture (I've
never had a puncture on my tourer)?

2) How much will going from a 14-15ish kg bike to a 10kg bike improve my
average speed. Right now I'm averaging about 18+ around a route with
lots of hills.

I continually have this debate myself - I ride a Dawes Sonoran, with the
supplied 40mm tyres, which can't do much for the rolling performance of
the bike.

And yet, I've done 170km of road riding in a day; taken it on all but
the Black Route in Thetford Forest Park, ridden the Peddars Way, and
(today) the Marriot way; so for general, all round on and off road
performance - a treking/touring solution is excellent. Just don't try
and do it in a time frame - I'm probably "reasonably" fit now (done
2800km so far this year) and still can't better a 23kph average.

--
Chris

John Burns said:

I do about 20 miles most lunchtimes (more at weekends) and as a result
of this I'm reasonably fit now. I'm using an Edinburgh Country tourer
and I'm very happy with it. I generally do the shopping on the way
back so pannier space is very handy. Plus I often get rained on so
proper mudgaurds are nice.

But I'm thinking about a racing bike for weekend use. Never really
spent much time on one. Two questions:

Quoted message said:

1) What's the difference in comfort like with racing vs tourer tyres.
Roads aren't great up here. How easily do racing tyres puncture (I've
never had a puncture on my tourer)?

Both my racers and tourer have hard tyres but the frames are different
geometry so react differently to the bumps. The tourer is more comfortable .
All my bikes are steel so they will be more comfortable over bumps than many
aluminium bikes.

Quoted message said:

2) How much will going from a 14-15ish kg bike to a 10kg bike improve
my average speed. Right now I'm averaging about 18+ around a route
with lots of hills.

Dunno, my average is about the same on all bikes, I don't really care much
for speed, use my car for that.

John,
I take it you want the truth and not cycling myth??

1.The frame material makes NO difference to the ride. "Experts" cannot tell
what they are riding if the frame is covered up.

2. The geometry of the frame affects stability and comfort to some extent,
the tyre pressure etc. do have an effect.

3. 18mph plus is fast cycling. I used to do it years ago but wouldn't try
now as it is a recipe for getting fed up. Just enjoy yourself.

4. The weight will make almost NO difference on the flat. It will on hills
but not a lot.
At touring pace 1lb extra will delay you 30 seconds climbing 2000 ft at the
same effort. Not a lot, though it would lose you the tour de France.

5. Don't believe any bumpf about "responsive" etc. It's all in the mind.

If you don't believe this read Jobst Brandt's cycling FAQs on the net.

Quoted message said:

Dunno, my average is about the same on all bikes, I don't really care much
for speed, use my car for that.

LOL!...that's a classic line, really is.....I might just remember that
one, especially now I'm well past 40 :-)

Garry

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Burns [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

I do about 20 miles most lunchtimes (more at weekends) and as a result
of this I'm reasonably fit now. I'm using an Edinburgh Country tourer
and I'm very happy with it. I generally do the shopping on the way back
so pannier space is very handy. Plus I often get rained on so proper
mudgaurds are nice.

But I'm thinking about a racing bike for weekend use. Never really spent
much time on one. Two questions:

1) What's the difference in comfort like with racing vs tourer tyres.
Roads aren't great up here. How easily do racing tyres puncture (I've
never had a puncture on my tourer)?

A modern alumium frame with unraked sprint forks and high pressure tyres
will rattle you. The only time I've had tyres puncture was when I left
them too long before replacing them. The initial tyres on my Giant OCR
were Hutchinson Carbon Comps. They were very nice and stuck well to the
road, but did so by being soft compound and wore out quickly.

I don't find the Giant too comfortable over long distances (50miles+)
but that's probably as much to do with the fact that I've never really
set up the riding position properly. <Hmmm.... must do that at some
point!>

Quoted message said:

2) How much will going from a 14-15ish kg bike to a 10kg bike improve my
average speed. Right now I'm averaging about 18+ around a route with
lots of hills.

I would probably expect to see you push that up by a few mph at least.
What will really make you grin is the acceleration (Assuming reasonably
light wheels).

I think the geometry will also make it easier to tuck in for downhills.
I reached a point long ago where my limiting factor on long downhills
was fear.

Jon

Your average is very good if you ask me.

Graham

"MSeries" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Burns said:

I do about 20 miles most lunchtimes (more at weekends) and as a result
of this I'm reasonably fit now. I'm using an Edinburgh Country tourer
and I'm very happy with it. I generally do the shopping on the way
back so pannier space is very handy. Plus I often get rained on so
proper mudgaurds are nice.

But I'm thinking about a racing bike for weekend use. Never really
spent much time on one. Two questions:

Quoted message said:

1) What's the difference in comfort like with racing vs tourer tyres.
Roads aren't great up here. How easily do racing tyres puncture (I've
never had a puncture on my tourer)?

Both my racers and tourer have hard tyres but the frames are different
geometry so react differently to the bumps. The tourer is more comfortable

..

Quoted message said:

All my bikes are steel so they will be more comfortable over bumps than

many

Quoted message said:

aluminium bikes.

Bit of a bold statement is it not ?

Graham

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2) How much will going from a 14-15ish kg bike to a 10kg bike improve
my average speed. Right now I'm averaging about 18+ around a route
with lots of hills.

Dunno, my average is about the same on all bikes, I don't really care much
for speed, use my car for that.

garryb59 said:

Quoted message said:

Dunno, my average is about the same on all bikes, I don't really
care much for speed, use my car for that.

LOL!...that's a classic line, really is.....I might just remember that
one, especially now I'm well past 40 :-)

Garry

I surfed into some American guys site where he had several short articles
about his cycling. One was ranting on about those cyclists who are obcessed
with going faster, he likened them to motorists in the morning commute,
getting irate as they wait at lights then charge as fast as possible to the
next one. Cycling is my stress reliever I certainly will not worry about
going faster or failing to.

Quoted message said:

I do about 20 miles most lunchtimes (more at weekends)

an Edinburgh Country tourer
(I've

Quoted message said:

never had a puncture on my tourer)?

2) How much will going from a 14-15ish kg bike to a 10kg bike improve my
average speed. Right now I'm averaging about 18+ around a route with
lots of hills.

I need to know what kind of job allows time and energy for over an
hour of pretty fast cycling and cooling off time and do you have lunch
at all, every day?Your commuting miles are on top, and you do it on a
clunker (like mine-a perfectly good choice)with tyres of Chobham
armour.
Do you use a cycle computer?
You don't need a lighter bike, you need an ejector seat.
Having said that I would comment that you would find a racer less
adaptable less comfortable, harder on the hills unless you get a
triple, wet in rain, probably twitchier at the front, more expensive
for a light one, and slightly faster up the hills, but who's
watching?It could be that you might look more attractive on an
expensive racer, but you might lose the satisfaction of burning off
lance look-alikes on your shopping bike.
TerryJ

Quoted message said:

Your average is very good if you ask me.

They why do folk on racing bikes keep overtaking me? :-)

Twice in the last fortnight I've been blown away big time by other
riders. Both looked a big more professional / fitter than me. My small
5'6" build is maybe what I need to upgrade most!

--
Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :-)
Email: [email hidden], John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland
Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage!
Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html

Quoted message said:

I surfed into some American guys site where he had several short articles
about his cycling. One was ranting on about those cyclists who are obcessed
with going faster, he likened them to motorists in the morning commute,
getting irate as they wait at lights then charge as fast as possible to the
next one. Cycling is my stress reliever I certainly will not worry about
going faster or failing to.

I suppose it's my inexperience. One always wonders if the grass is
greener on the other side (i.e. racing bikes) :-)

--
Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :-)
Email: [email hidden], John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland
Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage!
Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html

Quoted message said:

I need to know what kind of job allows time and energy for over an
hour of pretty fast cycling and cooling off time and do you have lunch
at all, every day?Your commuting miles are on top, and you do it on a
clunker (like mine-a perfectly good choice)with tyres of Chobham
armour.

Self employed, sell unix workstations, binoculars and BMW parts on the
internet. Live in Aviemore :-) Work from home.

Quoted message said:

Do you use a cycle computer?

Yes. I have a Shimano Flightdeck. Love the way I can tell which gear I'm
in without looking between my legs :-)

Quoted message said:

Having said that I would comment that you would find a racer less
adaptable less comfortable, harder on the hills unless you get a
triple, wet in rain, probably twitchier at the front, more expensive
for a light one, and slightly faster up the hills, but who's
watching?It could be that you might look more attractive on an
expensive racer, but you might lose the satisfaction of burning off
lance look-alikes on your shopping bike.

If only :-)

--
Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :-)
Email: [email hidden], John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland
Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage!
Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html

John Burns [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your average is very good if you ask me.

They why do folk on racing bikes keep overtaking me? :-)

Twice in the last fortnight I've been blown away big time by other
riders. Both looked a big more professional / fitter than me. My small
5'6" build is maybe what I need to upgrade most!

Find an old, cheap racer. Replace the rear cassette with a single fixed
gear at a ratio slightly higher than you normally ride. Ride. After a
few months, up the ratio. Then get a lightweight racer and burn them up!

Jon

Gear=F3id =D3 Laoi/Garry Lee [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

John,
I take it you want the truth and not cycling myth??
=20
1.The frame material makes NO difference to the ride. "Experts" cannot te=

ll

Quoted message said:

what they are riding if the frame is covered up.

I used to maintain this line until I bought the Giant. I admit that=20
there are more than a few differences so no side by side comparisons=20
with my old racer are possible, but the steel framed fixer with similar=20
pressure in the tyres does feel less painful over cobbles / other rough=20
surfaces.

A more important consideration is frame life. A steel one _will_ survive=20
a greater pounding before fracture.

Quoted message said:

2. The geometry of the frame affects stability and comfort to some extent=

,

Quoted message said:

the tyre pressure etc. do have an effect.

True.

Quoted message said:

3. 18mph plus is fast cycling. I used to do it years ago but wouldn't try
now as it is a recipe for getting fed up. Just enjoy yourself.

It could be that the original poster enjoys himself at 18mph+. I'm=20
getting into the gentle touring thing on the bent, but there is much=20
pleasure to be had from the sprint up the hill from work on the fixer.

Quoted message said:

5. Don't believe any bumpf about "responsive" etc. It's all in the mind.

Surely this comes down to frame geometry and weight. The biggest=20
difference will probably be the wheels. Accelerating a lightweight wheel=20
takes less effort than accelerating a heavy one. Most reasonably specced=20
racers come with semi-decent wheels.
=20

Quoted message said:

If you don't believe this read Jobst Brandt's cycling FAQs on the net.

Or ask around. Or more importantly, try one. What one person=20
(knowledgeable or otherwise) has to say on the matter has no bearing on=20
personal experience. If you find that the =A35000 Cannondale Six13 makes=20
you faster then so be it.

Jon

"Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote:

: 3. 18mph plus is fast cycling. I used to do it years ago but wouldn't try
: now as it is a recipe for getting fed up. Just enjoy yourself.

Actually, that's a warm down/easy ride pace on the flat 🙂 People are
different, and cycle tourists idea of what is "fast" is very different
indeed from racing cyclists.

: 4. The weight will make almost NO difference on the flat. It will on hills
: but not a lot.

True enough.

: 5. Don't believe any bumpf about "responsive" etc. It's all in the mind.

This just isn't true. A good race bike makes you push harder, go faster. A
good touring bike says "sit back, potter and keep going till you get to
China". Neither is better than the other, but they are different.

So, to answer the OP - sounds like what you are doing is short, fast burns
for fun. Get a pukka race bike, put some top quality tyres on it, and enjoy.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

John Burns said:

Quoted message said:

I need to know what kind of job allows time and energy for over an
hour of pretty fast cycling and cooling off time and do you have lunch
at all, every day?Your commuting miles are on top, and you do it on a
clunker (like mine-a perfectly good choice)with tyres of Chobham
armour.

Self employed, sell unix workstations, binoculars and BMW parts on the
internet. Live in Aviemore :-) Work from home.

Oooh, envy.
I guess you mean second user Unix workstations, like Sparcstations etc?
I always wanted my very own SGI O2, but I guess I can't justify it.

John Burns said:

Quoted message said:

Your average is very good if you ask me.

They why do folk on racing bikes keep overtaking me? :-)

Twice in the last fortnight I've been blown away big time by other
riders. Both looked a big more professional / fitter than me. My small
5'6" build is maybe what I need to upgrade most!

You don't say if your small stature equates to light weight or not. ;-)
Other things being equal, lighter riders have an advantage over heavier
ones when climbing. I think it's probably true to say that lighter riders
also benefit more from lighter bikes than heavier riders do. I think
you'll ride your hilly routes faster on a lighter bike.

Before committing yourself to the purchase of an (expensive) racing bike
why not try taking the rack and mudguards off your tourer to see if there's
an improvement?

--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "He has Van Gogh's ear for music." - Billy Wilder
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

"Arthur Clune" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

: 5. Don't believe any bumpf about "responsive" etc. It's all in the mind.

This just isn't true. A good race bike makes you push harder, go faster. A
good touring bike says "sit back, potter and keep going till you get to
China". Neither is better than the other, but they are different.

Seconded.

My (no longer entirely) new bike isn't an all-out race bike (more audax-y),
but it's definitely faster than the tourer. However how much of this is due
to it encouraging me to pedal harder I don't know - there's a bit of
positive feedback, in that it feels good when you pedal hard, so you do it
some more.

(the front wheel is the same as the tourer, and the back isn't that much
lighter, so I don't reckon it's weight of wheels. I'd go for geometry being
the prime difference).

BTW I went for the audax-type compromise rather than having a separate
tourer and racer, so I still have one bike which fits all my solo riding
needs. (two tandems for other stuff :-) )

cheers,
clive