Racing and Training Cadence

ackgot said:

Is Cadence for racing usually faster than when you are training?
Generally where would you like the Cadence for these 2 to be around?

training cadence = racing cadence
on the flat between 85 and 95, avg 88-90
climbing between 70 and 82, avg 72-75 (I am a bad climber)
next year climbing I aim at increasing climbing cadence

I drill at higher cadence while training on a regular basis
on the flat between 100 and 110
I also sprint all out on the flat up to 140 (L7 and short L6), and up to 90-100 off the saddle (bad sprinter too).
climbing up to 100 (when doing WarrenG's uphill sprinting drill).

ackgot said:

Is Cadence for racing usually faster than when you are training?
Generally where would you like the Cadence for these 2 to be around?

Many top level sprinters have a maximum cadence of over 200!! Now that is fast.
To find your own optimal cadence for various situations, you can conduct a field test to compare different speeds and styles.

bikecoach said:

To find your own optimal cadence for various situations, you can conduct a field test to compare different speeds and styles.

How could you do that?

ric

ackgot said:

Is Cadence for racing usually faster than when you are training?

No - any cadence i can hit in a race i can hit just as easily in training. What does differ between the 2 is the % time spent at various cadences between racing and training. Depending on the type of race (ie crit Vs flat RR Vs hilly RR), cadence can be all over the place - eg in crits you can see a large % of time spent coasting, unless you're in a breakaway. Training is a different story since you can be a lot more prescriptive. In general, my approach is to ride within my optimal cadence range* (ie the one i know i'm most efficient at) - obviously, terrain can impact ability to do this (eg 10% grades, etc). I basically choose the gear to match my preferred cadence.

* Unless i'm doing some specific high cadence drills or sprints, in which case i go into 'egg beater' mode.

ackgot said:

Generally where would you like the Cadence for these 2 to be around?

There's no hard and fast answer. You need to work out what your preferred (self selected) cadence range. Forget about what cadence other people ride at and comments about "Lance rides at xx rpm" - i think the point here is to ride within a range that you are most efficient in (ie a balance between power/sustainability/technique)

I do not believe you can simply say train and race at the cadence that suits you. I have no doubt in my mind that spinning is an essential ingredient to winning. Spinning will feel unusual but it definitely helps. I recently won an A-grade club race using only my 39-13 or lower! They all thought I was crazy and wondered why I was spinning so quickly until a breakaway formed in the last few km's. I was able to jump across the gap with relative ease while the others physically couldn't push any more because they had used to big a gear during the race. I still managed to spin away and win the sprint with my 39-13 while the othes in the breakaway couldn't accelerate from there big ring.

There have been many races where I have tried using bigger gears but I just sap my strength for when it matters and lose power.

In training you should practice staying in the same gear you ride uphill as you ride downhill so you will be climbing at 60-80rpm and spinning 120-150 down the other side. I have also heard of a local pro who races in Italy in a Div 1 team (Tenax Salmilano) who does 30-40km TT's in his 39-21. There team uses track bikes so they cant cheat and they have to get back within a certain time limit so they can't bludge.

I recently did a 10km TT in my 39-23 on a slight downhill slope, the effort really hurt and I could only avg 35-40km/h but they don't leave your legs fatigued like SE does. Sessions like this really help when you see your competitors chugging away in there big ring in a headwind, you know you can spin instead and conserve your energy while the others blow themselves apart.

dm69 said:

I do not believe you can simply say train and race at the cadence that suits you. I have no doubt in my mind that spinning is an essential ingredient to winning. Spinning will feel unusual but it definitely helps.

I never disputed any of this, but the original post had nothing to do with what is necessary to win a race. I am an advocate of spinning and do use high-cadence drills in my training program, but it's not spinning that's an essential ingredient to winning - it's about utilising your power most effectively and efficiently and tactics.

dm69 said:

I recently won an A-grade club race using only my 39-13 or lower! They all thought I was crazy and wondered why I was spinning so quickly until a breakaway formed in the last few km's.

Hence my comment about forgetting what other people ride at or say with respect to what cadence you "should" be riding at.

dm69 said:

I was able to jump across the gap with relative ease while the others physically couldn't push any more because they had used to big a gear during the race. I still managed to spin away and win the sprint with my 39-13 while the othes in the breakaway couldn't accelerate from there big ring.

Hence my point about riding within a range that you are most efficient in (ie a balance between power/sustainability/technique)

dm69 said:

There have been many races where I have tried using bigger gears but I just sap my strength for when it matters and lose power.

See my point above

dm69 said:

In training you should practice staying in the same gear you ride uphill as you ride downhill so you will be climbing at 60-80rpm and spinning 120-150 down the other side. .

Why should you do this? Why should i climb at 60-80rpm?

dm69 said:

I have also heard of a local pro who races in Italy in a Div 1 team (Tenax Salmilano) who does 30-40km TT's in his 39-21. There team uses track bikes so they cant cheat and they have to get back within a certain time limit so they can't bludge.

What's the relevance of this to the OP?

dm69 said:

I recently did a 10km TT in my 39-23 on a slight downhill slope, the effort really hurt and I could only avg 35-40km/h but they don't leave your legs fatigued like SE does. Sessions like this really help when you see your competitors chugging away in there big ring in a headwind, you know you can spin instead and conserve your energy while the others blow themselves apart.

Hence, choosing a cadence that you are most efficient in (ie a balance between power/sustainability/technique)

I'm curious of the distance of these races. Have you done any VO2 testing at various cadences?

This would probably greatly help you determine the best cadence and if you are actually going to be able to maintain them over the long hall. I, as well as others, have been surprised by how much sugar was being burned at a relatively high cadence (90-100), when we've thought we were burning more efficiently.

Just curious.

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usasportstrain said:

I'm curious of the distance of these races.

Race distances are dependant on the type of racing - eg crit races (20km - 40km), mass start road races (50km - 200km+), stage racing, etc.

usasportstrain said:

Have you done any VO2 testing at various cadences?This would probably greatly help you determine the best cadence and if you are actually going to be able to maintain them over the long hall. I, as well as others, have been surprised by how much sugar was being burned at a relatively high cadence (90-100), when we've thought we were burning more efficiently.

Just curious.

Our site: usasportstraining.comusasportstraining.comOpen ↗
As always, SWIM, BIKE, RUN!

How have you measured how much sugar is being burned? Are you talking about V02max/blood lactate testing? In which case, i have done them, but have not used them to test cadences.

You can get high blood lactate levels irrespective of cadence since the mechanism via which lactate accumulates is a function of which energy systems are being utilised predominantly and how well your body is trained to clear/process lactate - in proxy, it's the power as a function of your threshold power which becomes relevant, not the cadences at VO2max. You and others could have seen higher lactate levels when at 90-100rpm simply because the power at which it occured was a higher proportion of your threshold power. I'm not an exercise physiologist so might be off Andy/Ric could give a more definitive answer.

You're right in the need to test across a range of cadences to find an optimal cadence and you can do just that using a power meter. You can ride specific durations and try a range of cadences to see which produces the highest Ave Power with the lowest level of muscle fatigue. I can control energy expenditure by consuming adequate foods/drinks in races.

In the absence of a power meter, you could do the same using a wind trainer (or other controlled environment) and use ave speed as a proxy against a range of cadences.