Cycling Training · Public discussion

racing and climbing

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Cycling Training
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31 March 2004
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jodes
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  1. Hi,

    I have been cycling for just over a year. I've done a fair bit of training in this time, and have been racing since last year in a few club races, criteriums, and tours.

    I have a coach who is very good, and train various elements of riding, including strength, endurance, hills, sprinting, intervals etc etc. My earlier riding was mostly building up fitness and endurance, with lots of long rides. Now I'm doing more specific, high intensity, shorter training.

    Racing has been going really well, and I'm definitely holding my own. I do notice one element that I seem to struggle with, compared to other girls I race with.

    At the start of the race, I'm usually easily holding my own on the hills, and my legs feel fresh. In races where I am not lapping through (because the other girls/guys are stronger), I seem to feel similar when I get to the hills, right through the race. However, if I'm in a situation where I'm lapping through, so I'm taking turns on the front, I seem to really struggle later in the race when I get to the hills. My legs feel very heavy, and I feel like I stop at the start of the hill, and my legs just won't go.

    Is this because my lactate threshold is being exceeded in these situations, or would there be another reason? Whatever it is, does anyone have any suggestions of what training I could do to improve my racing in this area?

    Thanks

  2. I think you're correct. When you start hitting your LT early in the tough events, the fatigue is showing up later. Any racer doing endurance events or TT's has the same problem of budgeting energy throughout so that they don't blow up late in the event.

    Your coach will probably tell you that more endurance training will raise your aerobic capacity so that you're not hitting your LT as much early in the race. Also, more training at and above LT will allow you to increase the time you can spend there. If you're doing it right, every season you train and compete will make you stronger.

  3. Just to follow-up on dhk's previous post, lots of hill training assures you, you are AT or ABOVE LT.

  4. Thanks for your feedback, I think I'm still learning about the budgeting energy thing and racing. I started out in the race I just did (89km) feeling really good, so was taking strong, hard laps, thinking I'd be getting rid of the less stronger girls. I think that, plus maybe not eating quite enough, meant by the time I got to about 65km I had used up most of my energy. In saying that, I still managed to finish 4th, but was a minute behind the two first girls.

    I'm still trying to find out about LT and where exactly mine is. I haven't had any tests done, and can't really afford it, and I'm not totally sure what my max is, but would guess it would be around 195-197. I've got it up to 193 before. The first half of the race my heart rate averaged 172 (we averaged 36.5km/hr), the last half was lower, around 165. I think my LT must be around 170ish. Although in saying that, in the criteriums I do, which are around 35-40 minutes, my heart rate has averaged over 180 sometimes. Also, with hill climbing, I can often keep my heart rate around 175-180 for a hill 3-4 km's long.

    Is anyone able to help me out with determining my LT? I know if I did a time trial for 20 minutes, my average HR might be my LT, but I am confused about the variations in my heart rate depending on what type of racing etc I'm doing.

  5. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by tanggoman
    Just to follow-up on dhk's previous post, lots of hill training assures you, you are AT or ABOVE LT.

    No dought, has made me now i can say very strong i ride 80% hills and 80% alone i have not been out climbed yet. there is a 9 mile mountain time trial here state winners time is 34 min, i do 5 miles of it in 20 min and thats after riding 30 miles to the mountain and climbing steep up in downs to get there. i will know what my time will be race day when im fresh with only 9 miles to go, look out ALVEREZ!

  6. [QUOTE]Originally posted by jodes
    [B]Thanks for your feedback, I think I'm still learning about the budgeting energy thing and racing. I started out in the race I just did (89km) feeling really good, so was taking strong, hard laps, thinking I'd be getting rid of the less stronger girls. I think that, plus maybe not eating quite enough, meant by the time I got to about 65km I had used up most of my energy. In saying that, I still managed to finish 4th, but was a minute behind the two first girls.
    [/quote]

    during training and racing it's important to take on energy - this is generally best in the form of a carbohydrate-electrolyte drink as a ~ 6% solution. Generally, it's easier to drink than eat and as you *must* take on fluids, drinks are the way to go. The drink/powder should just be carbohydrates with electrolytes in, other stuff, isn't much use.

    Try sipping small amounts every 15 or so mins, and make sure you have had plenty of carbohydrates (and fluids) prior to beginning your race. This will ensure that your muscle and liver glycogen (body's energy stores) are fully topped up. you should aim to consume 1 g of carbohydrate per kg body mass per hour prior to racing. For example, if you weighed 60 kg and ate 2 hrs prior to racing you should consume ~120 g of carbohydrates.

    it's also be worth trying out this amount of food in training to make sure that you are comfortable with the quantity etc. also, do not try anything new prior to a race as something is bound to go wrong!

    Quoted post said:


    I'm still trying to find out about LT and where exactly mine is. I haven't had any tests done, and can't really afford it, and I'm not totally sure what my max is, but would guess it would be around 195-197. I've got it up to 193 before.



    your LT is actually quite a low intensity -- the usual definition of LT is the workload that elicits a 1 mmol/L in lactate of exercise baseline levels (giving about 2.xx mmol/L). another definition, is the workload that elicits a fixed rate of 2.5 mmol/L.

    Thus, LT has *nothing* whatsoever to do with HR. It's a workload, which is measured in power (watts) in cycling or velocity (km/hr, m/s) in running.

    Trained athletes can maintain LT for ~ up to 3+ hours.


    Quoted post said:


    The first half of the race my heart rate averaged 172 (we averaged 36.5km/hr), the last half was lower, around 165. I think my LT must be around 170ish. Although in saying that, in the criteriums I do, which are around 35-40 minutes, my heart rate has averaged over 180 sometimes. Also, with hill climbing, I can often keep my heart rate around 175-180 for a hill 3-4 km's long.



    if you are trying to find what HR you can sustain for say a TT, then the best option is to time trial for an hour and find the average. however, it's imperative to understand that HR can vary at a given workload due to many external conditions, for example, cadence, temperature, altitude, foodstuffs, anxiety, caffiene, fatigue, etc.

    i find that when doing TT training my HR at the same power output can vary by up to 15+ b/min depending on recent training and how over reached i am. Thus, it's important if you don't have a power meter to be able to accurately rely on percieved exertion as well as HR.

    Quoted post said:


    Is anyone able to help me out with determining my LT? I know if I did a time trial for 20 minutes, my average HR might be my LT, but I am confused about the variations in my heart rate depending on what type of racing etc I'm doing. [/B]



    Your LT is (very) unlikely to be the workload associated with a 20-min TT effort.

    ric

  7. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by jodes
    At the start of the race, I'm usually easily holding my own on the hills, and my legs feel fresh. In races where I am not lapping through (because the other girls/guys are stronger), I seem to feel similar when I get to the hills, right through the race. However, if I'm in a situation where I'm lapping through, so I'm taking turns on the front, I seem to really struggle later in the race when I get to the hills. My legs feel very heavy, and I feel like I stop at the start of the hill, and my legs just won't go.

    Is this because my lactate threshold is being exceeded in these situations, or would there be another reason? Whatever it is, does anyone have any suggestions of what training I could do to improve my racing in this area?

    Thanks

    it would be *impossible* to not exceed your LT in a RR unless you were really sandbagging a race very badly (something like Lance Armstrong riding an under 10's race).

    However, the higher your LT and VO2max the better your performance will be and the less fatigued you'll feel. according, you should aim to increase your LT, TT ability and VO2max.

    Your coach should be able to prescribe training to cope with these issues, but, you're looking at quality endurance training (60 to 180 minutes), TT training (15 to 30 min intervals) and hill efforts of say 3 to 5 mins durations. these are just very rough basic guidelines.

    you should be able to discuss these matters with your coach, and if you can't, find one that will!

    ric

  8. Can someone tell me what a typical wattge output required is to ride at 40 km/hr assuming no wind, flat, and 185 pounds weight with bike? Is there a good analytical website that does this kind of stuff?

  9. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by Paul DeVries
    Can someone tell me what a typical wattge output required is to ride at 40 km/hr assuming no wind, flat, and 185 pounds weight with bike? Is there a good analytical website that does this kind of stuff?

    depends on your bike, your size, your position, your equipment, road conditions, environmental conditions, altitude, etc.

    your best bet is either using a power meter, or visiting www.analyticcycling.com.

    ric

  10. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by jodes
    Thanks for your feedback, I think I'm still learning about the budgeting energy thing and racing. I started out in the race I just did (89km) feeling really good, so was taking strong, hard laps, thinking I'd be getting rid of the less stronger girls. I think that, plus maybe not eating quite enough, meant by the time I got to about 65km I had used up most of my energy. In saying that, I still managed to finish 4th, but was a minute behind the two first girls.

    I'm still trying to find out about LT and where exactly mine is. I haven't had any tests done, and can't really afford it, and I'm not totally sure what my max is, but would guess it would be around 195-197. I've got it up to 193 before. The first half of the race my heart rate averaged 172 (we averaged 36.5km/hr), the last half was lower, around 165. I think my LT must be around 170ish. Although in saying that, in the criteriums I do, which are around 35-40 minutes, my heart rate has averaged over 180 sometimes. Also, with hill climbing, I can often keep my heart rate around 175-180 for a hill 3-4 km's long.

    Is anyone able to help me out with determining my LT? I know if I did a time trial for 20 minutes, my average HR might be my LT, but I am confused about the variations in my heart rate depending on what type of racing etc I'm doing.

    Ricstern is correct when he states that you do need to take on fuel before you race.
    Regardless of how fit you are - or not matter how well training has been going - you do need to have fuel on board before and during a cycle/race.
    As you race, you are expending energy.
    The energy you expend comes from food.
    Thus, you need to ensure that there is a constant supply of energy.

    The other posters here can give you the technical data about LT/
    Wattage etc.
    As an older rider, I want to tell you that when you are racing eat
    regularly during the race (even if you don;t feel hungry !)
    and drink plenty of liquids.
    Also, only eat when on the flat part of the course you're cycling on.
    Do not eat approaching a climb/or when climbing.
    If you do, you're system will be trying to process the food that you are eating while trying to also let you cycle.
    This is to be avoided all all times.

  11. Thanks everyone for your help,

    I will pay more attention to eating and drinking, although I am usually really good with it, in training and racing. My body does seem to need ALOT to keep going though, particularly if over 100k's. I always seem to eat and drink more than my training buddies, and do always eat a good breakfast before going out if for a long ride. I do use powder sports drinks, and power bars and gels.

    As to the LT advice, thanks also for the comments. I know what you mean about heart rate not always being a good measure. It seems to me that getting that heavy leg feeling relates to pressure on the pedals. When directly in the wind (on the front), pressure because of wind resistance is much higher than if drafting behind someone and being able to soft pedal and not feel much pressure on the legs at all. And when racing, using bigger gears, at higher speeds, the pressure is greater.

    So when I get to a hill after being on the front, where I was having to apply significant pressure on my legs, they feel very heavy, and my climbing really sux.

    I spose it is just a matter of getting used to riding the big chain ring eg having to push a bigger gear for longer periods.

    I also seem to have a bit of trouble keeping my cadence up if doing a TT, going hard. This also seems to relate to applying constant pressure on the pedals, and fighting the wind resistance. My cadence seems to drop to between 90 - 94, whereas I can usually maintain it above this level 95 - 110 if I am able to have a break from being in the wind, or am doing a criterium or something. I feel that if I drop to an easier gear, my speed will drop.

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