Racing a 100 mile time trial

First off, good luck! I've only done 50's up to now and I find the last 20mins of them rock hard. A lot of pain over a lot of time. I won't be considering 100's for a couple of years yet.

Don't know about eating strategies, but i think I can help with the target power......

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer
I am starting to think of goals for next season. One of my goals would be to do a good ride in a 100 mile time trial. 'Good ride' sounds vague, so lets say under 4hours 40minutes for the first one. That would require just over 21mph for the duration. If 260W gets me 25mph, any idea what I need for 21mph?

Most of the resistance when cycling on relatively flat terrain is due to air resistance, which increases with speed squared. The rest is lost to mechanical drag / tyre deformation etc. and is far less dependant on speed.

As a rough stab we can assume that at 25mph, 200W's is lost to air resistance, and 60W to the rest.

The speed difference is: 25/21 = 1.19, square this: 1.19^2 = 1.42

So air resistance at 21mph is: 200W / 1.42 = 141W

If we assume the other resistances are unchanged (which I've heard is a fair approximation), then:

Watts for 21mph = 141 + 60 = 201W

I've also worked out what I think are minimum and maximum cases:

Assume 220W to air resistance, 40W to 'other', and assume that 'other' reduces proportionally to speed = 189W

Assume 180W to air resistance, 80W to 'other', and 'other' remains constant with speed = 207W

I don't think you'll be far off with 200W, as long as you use the same equipment and position (+ a couple of bottles of course)

Good luck

m.

Savage!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Aztec
Savage!

😄 The only savage part is that most start at 6AM or 7AM at the latest :eek:. I suppose that does mean I can be back in bed by 11AM for the following 2 days I'll need to recover 😄

The power numbers quoted by Markster are well within my reach. I've done a few 75 mile rides in the summer of 4hours duration at ~195W averages on lumpy courses. On a good course, on the time trial bike, 200-210W for over 4 hours sounds achievable. Maybe I could do a little better than 4hrs 40mins, though daring to shoot any higher in my first 100 does worry me.

Markster is correct that the air resistance (drag force) varies with the square of the speed, but the power in Watts varies with the cube of the speed, since power is force * velocity.

So, as you increase speed from 21-25 mph, you not only have to overcome the greater drag force, but you have to do it while covering more feet/sec. The power calculator I've found says that only 165 W is needed at 21 mph on aerobars. Actually, this seems a bit low to me. Of course, a lot of assumptions go into the equation.

Fun to play with at: http://w3.iac.net/~curta/bp/BikeSheet.html

Dan

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer
I am starting to think of goals for next season. One of my goals would be to do a good ride in a 100 mile time trial. 'Good ride' sounds vague, so lets say under 4hours 40minutes for the first one. That would require just over 21mph for the duration. If 260W gets me 25mph, any idea what I need for 21mph?

What training is necessary to ride such an event? I would expect that from racing at 25mph for one hour, the ability to ride at 21mph for the duration of the event would feel quite 'easy'. I guess I would need to work up to completing 60-70miles in training at this pace before the race.

Pacing during the event would be important. In such an event is it better to start off at goal pace (e.g. 21mph), then see how you feel after 2 hours and adjust the pace up to 22mph then if possible? Or is it better to ride at 22mph from the start giving some leeway for fading to 21mph by the end of the event?

I know one of the most important aspects of a 100 will be feeding. How many calories would you need to take on in such an event? I expect I would use 6-700calories per hour on the bike, and would need to consume about 200-300calories of carbs to stave off 'the bonk'. Eating something solid might also be important as consuming lots of carbo drink for 4hours doesn't sound too palatable.

Finally comfort on the bike will be an issue, so raising the aero-bars a little might, or dropping the saddle by 3-5mm, might aid comfort for such a duration?

I feel very qualified to comment on many aspects of your post. I have recently been doing a series of rides between 80 and 100 miles in length to build my aerobic fitness. I also have a powermeter (PowerTap) and can give you some good estimates of the power you will need. I used my regular road bike with no aero gear.

The 85 mi ride averaged 240 w and 20.7 mph at a very steady pace by myself. I did start to bonk at the end and figured out that I only ate 900 calories TOTAL on the ride. According to the PT I burned about 4000 ! (so eat more !!!)

The 100 mi ride had a 217w avg but was a highly variable effort with half the ride done in two fast group ride/training races. It too averaged 20.7 mph but the 217 w is deceiving. There is something called normalized power that accounts for variable efforts and tries to estimate the power you would have produced in a steady state effort. My NP for that ride was 249w.

I would also go out a bit slower than you think is prudent and build from there. I averaged 20.2 the first hour and then over 21.3 or so the next 2 hours.

Finally, in judging the wattage you will need, I can tell you that I am a big guy 6'3" or 190 cm and 194 lb or 88 kg. Obviously if you are smaller (very likely) you won't need nearly that power output to maintain the same 21 mph average.

As for training, I would do lots of intervals designed to raise my LT. I ride lots of 2 x 20s at 1 hr TT pace.

Best of luck

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dhk
Markster is correct that the air resistance (drag force) varies with the square of the speed, but the power in Watts varies with the cube of the speed, since power is force * velocity.

So, as you increase speed from 21-25 mph, you not only have to overcome the greater drag force, but you have to do it while covering more feet/sec. The power calculator I've found says that only 165 W is needed at 21 mph on aerobars. Actually, this seems a bit low to me. Of course, a lot of assumptions go into the equation.

Fun to play with at: http://w3.iac.net/~curta/bp/BikeSheet.html

Dan

Doh! Sorry about my flawed physics! However, as you say, using V^3 gives very low answers. Needs some experimentation.

m.

Yes, the V-cubed factor explains why so many old guys like me can ride 16-18 for several hours, but only a few can ride 21-25.

Believe the calculator uses pretty low values for the aerobar position ...it's quite a bit lower than "drops" or "hoods".

Dan

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dhk
Yes, the V-cubed factor explains why so many old guys like me can ride 16-18 for several hours, but only a few can ride 21-25.

Believe the calculator uses pretty low values for the aerobar position ...it's quite a bit lower than "drops" or "hoods".

Dan

More scary is trying to get from 48 to 50kph! I think I'm going to shave my eyebrows off next season!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Markster
More scary is trying to get from 48 to 50kph! I think I'm going to shave my eyebrows off next season!

Now that is scary Mark! Sheesh. Is this your target for next year? Over what distance? What is your training plan to reach this goal if you don't mind me enquiring (I'm nosey, always looking for new ideas 😄).

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer
Now that is scary Mark! Sheesh. Is this your target for next year? Over what distance? What is your training plan to reach this goal if you don't mind me enquiring (I'm nosey, always looking for new ideas 😄).

I've done 10miles in 19:53. A guy who I beat everytime I raced him this year has done 19:30 on the same course, so if I get to the same condition as I was this year and get a good day on that course then 50kph is definitely achievable. It isn't a goal though, I was really just saying it to highlight how hard it is to get a little bit of extra speed when you are already going quick.

I don't like setting goals on achieving speeds (although I have done it before), as it is totally dependant on weather. If its windy you might as well stay in bed.

My goal for next year is top 10 in the national 10 and 25mile champs, and the circuit TT champs. based on my performances in the nationals this year I know what sort of power I need to be putting out to achieve this. So my aim is to hit those levels of power at the right time.

I don't really want to give away all my training, but I will tell you a session that really brings me on (although I won't be doing it before 5 weeks to go): 3 * 5mins at the highest constant power I can sustain for the length of the interval (usually 115% of the max power I can maintain for 30mins), with 10mins easy spinning in between. I do these absolutely flat out, in TT position on the turbo, and no more than once a week. I've tried doing 4 or 5 intervals but I've found it no better, and it takes longer to recover and is mentally a lot harder. 3 is perfect for me.

m.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Markster
I don't really want to give away all my training, but I will tell you a session that really brings me on (although I won't be doing it before 5 weeks to go): 3 * 5mins at the highest constant power I can sustain for the length of the interval (usually 115% of the max power I can maintain for 30mins), with 10mins easy spinning in between. I do these absolutely flat out, in TT position on the turbo, and no more than once a week. I've tried doing 4 or 5 intervals but I've found it no better, and it takes longer to recover and is mentally a lot harder. 3 is perfect for me.

Evidence that the standard sessions work!!!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Markster
I don't really want to give away all my training, but I will tell you a session that really brings me on (although I won't be doing it before 5 weeks to go): 3 * 5mins at the highest constant power I can sustain for the length of the interval (usually 115% of the max power I can maintain for 30mins), with 10mins easy spinning in between. I do these absolutely flat out, in TT position on the turbo, and no more than once a week. I've tried doing 4 or 5 intervals but I've found it no better, and it takes longer to recover and is mentally a lot harder. 3 is perfect for me.

Thanks for sharing Markster. Even if you did share your entire programme I don't think it would make us all as good as you 😄.

As for the intervals, I did something similar last year, 4-5 x 6mins at 310W, but did it way too early (March). I'm suprised 3 is enough, but if the power is high enough I think could be equivalent to ~12mins VO2max work (assuming 1 minute to reach VO2max) which is considered a good workout? (I read more than 8 minutes at VO2max is considered a good workout?).

Anyway I subsequently raised my 20min power so I could do 2x20mins at 295W and was hoping for some fast 10s and 25s(for me anyway 🙂). Unfortunately I was at my best in April and by May on the downhill past my peak. I think timing these efforts and moderating the number of intervals is necessary to control when the peak occurs. That's one thing I learnt from last year, if nothing else 🙂

Have you tried the 30 seconds on, 30 off approach Mark? That seems effective for spending a lot of time at VO2max but mentally breaks the work into manageable intervals. 1 minute on, 1 minute off can also be used. The first few intervals are relatively easy but when you get past number 5 you start reaching VO2max early in the interval and for part of the recovery and by the time you get to 15 you are really sucking air. The 30 seconds on interval keeps you going for a long time though. Any experience with these efforts?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer
As for the intervals, I did something similar last year, 4-5 x 6mins at 310W, but did it way too early (March).

I made the same timing mistake, started training above TT power in March and peaked about 6 weeks later. I'm leaving it later next year.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer
I'm suprised 3 is enough, but if the power is high enough I think could be equivalent to ~12mins VO2max work (assuming 1 minute to reach VO2max) which is considered a good workout? (I read more than 8 minutes at VO2max is considered a good workout?).

I was surprised too. Usually did 5 (though very slightly easier), but one day the power I'd scheduled was too hard and I only managed 3. I raced a couple of days later and felt absolutely ace. Since then I've had the confidence to just do 3 and it's always spot on (for me).

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer
Anyway I subsequently raised my 20min power so I could do 2x20mins at 295W and was hoping for some fast 10s and 25s(for me anyway 🙂). Unfortunately I was at my best in April and by May on the downhill past my peak. I think timing these efforts and moderating the number of intervals is necessary to control when the peak occurs. That's one thing I learnt from last year, if nothing else 🙂

Same thing for me. It's especially hard if you're going well, you need to have the confidence to sit on your form and sometimes back off when you're feeling good.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TTer
Have you tried the 30 seconds on, 30 off approach Mark? That seems effective for spending a lot of time at VO2max but mentally breaks the work into manageable intervals. 1 minute on, 1 minute off can also be used. The first few intervals are relatively easy but when you get past number 5 you start reaching VO2max early in the interval and for part of the recovery and by the time you get to 15 you are really sucking air. The 30 seconds on interval keeps you going for a long time thou

Whoops! I'll try and finish off my post properly......

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer
Have you tried the 30 seconds on, 30 off approach Mark? That seems effective for spending a lot of time at VO2max but mentally breaks the work into manageable intervals. 1 minute on, 1 minute off can also be used. The first few intervals are relatively easy but when you get past number 5 you start reaching VO2max early in the interval and for part of the recovery and by the time you get to 15 you are really sucking air. The 30 seconds on interval keeps you going for a long time though. Any experience with these efforts?

I haven't tried that approach properly. I might try it at some point, though I'm a bit scared of messing around with high end stuff at the moment as its so easy to do too much.

One of the reasons I do them as 5min intervals is that you mentally suffer really bad. The 4th minute is extreme, and during the last minute 5 seconds feels like 20 minutes. Its horrible. Thats one of the reasons I can only cope with 3 of them, 3 is enough to condition myself for the mental trauma of racing, but 4 or 5 is too much mental stress and I pay for that when I race.

I'm not currently too concerned with training at V02max as I'm still seeing big gains at lower intensities. Especially at the moment (post CTS ;-)), I want to stick to what has worked in the past for a while. It's definitely something I'll look at in the future though.

m.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Markster
I haven't tried that approach properly. I might try it at some point, though I'm a bit scared of messing around with high end stuff at the moment as its so easy to do too much.

m.

A good coach will be able to help you and guide you to meet and exceed your goals and objectives.

Ric

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Markster
One of the reasons I do them as 5min intervals is that you mentally suffer really bad. The 4th minute is extreme, and during the last minute 5 seconds feels like 20 minutes. Its horrible. Thats one of the reasons I can only cope with 3 of them, 3 is enough to condition myself for the mental trauma of racing, but 4 or 5 is too much mental stress and I pay for that when I race.

I'm in a cold sweat reading this 🙂. I know exactly what you mean: eyes closed (except for peeking to check time/power), concentrating on form, legs searing in pain, and barely able to breathe. If I'm not on the aero-bars for the intervals they're always handy to collapse onto during the rest interval (like having a lay down 🙂).

I will try fewer intervals. I know what you mean about the mental side of them. I've mentioned this before about psychologically kidding yourself that you're only doing say 3-4 intervals when you're really doing 5. If I don't play mind games then it's tough when you're suffering in interval 1 of 5. If you think it's 1 of 3 or 4, then it seems easier. In the TT intervals I've been doing recently I've extended the time of each interval and kept the number the same (3 or 4max, going to 5 or 6 is too mentally tough even for short intervals like 8mins). So from 3x12mins I have gone to 3x15 rather than 4x11 or 4x12.

Good stuff Markster, cheers.

Talk of mind games has dragged my thinking back to the actual subject of this thread....

I remember asking a very successful long distance TT rider who rides lives round here how he copes with efforts like that. He said that he sets himself little targets along the way and only aims for them, and doesn't think about the whole ride, in much the same way that you've been tricking yourself with numbers of intervals. Although I think it's something more like 'I'm riding 25miles, and want to get to the end of them fresh', and only when he gets there does he think about the next 25miles. I don't think it's 'I'm going to batter 25miles and then hang on for the rest'.

My old UK coach said that a lot of his (the long distance TT'ers) training involved a long ride at very low intensity, say 4-5hrs+, and then on his way home he did the last 30mins at time trial pace. My coach did point out that this wasn't necessarily the best way to train though - maybe the guy in question could be quicker following a different plan (if he follows a specific plan). He certainly loves riding his bike, a lot.

I'm just recounting second hand information and stuff here - just a vague attempt to be on subject for once!

m.

doing a 30-min TT at the end of a 'long' (whatever long might be for you) is a great way of training (but don't do it too frequently)

Ric