Race wheels

Lou Holtman said:

Wow, it was a question Sandy not a demand. A simple 'for the complete
data you have to buy the magazine' would be enough and I would agree
with you.

It's not that easy to get hold of a copy of Le Cycle outside France. I don't
think a small list is a copyright violation.

Maybe Google will start scanning in cycling magazines soon ;-)

Gr, Derk

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 10 Mar 2007 18:54:28 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I've always wondered if at least some tubulars
might be better if hard glue was used

If you mean shellac, the answer is probably yes.

Worked for me, many, many Sundays ago when the cycle shop was closed
and the last tube in the basement had dried up.

On 10 Mar 2007 18:54:28 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I've always wondered if at least some tubulars
might be better if hard glue was used

If you mean shellac, the answer is probably yes.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Derk <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Lou Holtman said:

Wow, it was a question Sandy not a demand. A simple 'for the complete
data you have to buy the magazine' would be enough and I would agree
with you.

It's not that easy to get hold of a copy of Le Cycle outside France.

For those who pretend to an actual expertise, research and source materials
are necessary to remain current and informed. Any self-proclaimed expert
would not hesitate to acquire it. Some legal subscriptions cost over 3000
dollars, annually, and they are often useful for only brief periods.

Quoted message said:

I don't think a small list is a copyright violation.

Your thinking does not square with the laws in force in virtually all
nations. But don't fret - most violations of most laws of most nations are
not systematically prosecuted.

Quoted message said:

Maybe Google will start scanning in cycling magazines soon ;-)

I am sure that for the right price, any material can get scanned and
distributed. Perhaps they'll do that right after they scan and distribute a
certain book about wheel building. Surely, that would not be objectionable.

Quoted message said:

Gr, Derk

--
Gruss !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

Ron Ruff said:

jim beam said:

what are you - some kind of heretic?

I wouldn't mind seeing a good test that shows tubulars are better...
the two I referenced are modern and do not have anything to do with
Jobst... and they both show that clinchers are better.

According to these tests, the very best clinchers would be slightly
better than the very best tubulars on a perfect surface. I referenced
in this ng a while back some testing done with automobile tires
comparing tire performance on different road surfaces that showed that
smooth drums significantly _exaggerate_ differences among tires.

Quoted message said:

Both were
performed on rollers. I've always wondered if at least some tubulars
might be better if hard glue was used...

Even Brandt's testing showed that tubulars were at least as good as
clicnchers if hard glue was used. If I were still racing, I would
build race wheels with hard glued tubulars if I really thought that
contemporary road glues cause increased rr. In a race you replace the
wheel, not the tire.

Quoted message said:

or maybe there is some
"magical" vibration absorbtion that the gooey glue provides on real
pavement that compensates for the hysteresis losses.

That's an interesting idea that should be tested, but be careful-
thinking like this will get you in trouble.

Quoted message said:

Most pros are
still using them, and I presume that some (like Lance) might have
tested these and found them to be faster.

Lance tested _everything_ looking for the tiniest advantage in every
piece of equipment, but he rode handmade silk tubulars because of
mythology? Nonsense!

Sandy said:

Dans le message denews:[email hidden],
Sandy <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Dans le message denews:[email hidden],
Antti Salonen <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis
a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

But please, share the data?

Quoted message said:

Lazy - 100 tires.

Actually, not just lazy. You have the reference. It is not a web
reference. It is not free of charge. It carries copyright conditions. I
am not going to steal from another person's pocket. These comments are
intended (which will have no real effect) to cut short demands for data, to
discourage others from violating copyright law, and to bring to focus the
lack of critical thinking that is all too common in this newsgroup.

Data is not copyrighted, only the writing itself is. Regardless, I
understand your point.

Quoted message said:

On Mar 11, 8:29 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Mar 9, 5:47 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am in the market for a new set of race wheels.
My old set are Bontrager race x lite with conti sprinters and D/A 10
spd.
I race mainly in the midwest. Lots of fast flat crits. The road races
are rolling hills with some short steep climbs. Often the wind is a
big factor.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks

Quoted message said:

What do you want the 'new' wheels to do that your 'old' wheels aren't
doing??

I like my old set of race wheels.
It seems that the current trend is to a deeper V rim type.
I want to stay with tubulars. I have much more confidence in them.
I've seen to many clincher blow outs in races which always results in
a crash!

There is only one way to have light and also deep-ish aero rims and
that's with a carbon rim. Many choices out there but many share the
characteristics of poor hubs and big $. Reynolds is going to use DT
hubs this year and if there is an aftermarket wheel I like, it's
these. Boras are 'nice' too but lots of $$. Reynolds aren't cheap
either.

On Mar 12, 7:22 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Mar 11, 8:29 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Mar 9, 5:47 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I am in the market for a new set of race wheels.
> My old set are Bontrager race x lite with conti sprinters and D/A 10
> spd.
> I race mainly in the midwest. Lots of fast flat crits. The road races
> are rolling hills with some short steep climbs. Often the wind is a
> big factor.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Thanks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What do you want the 'new' wheels to do that your 'old' wheels aren't
doing??

Quoted message said:

I like my old set of race wheels.
It seems that the current trend is to a deeper V rim type.
I want to stay with tubulars. I have much more confidence in them.
I've seen to many clincher blow outs in races which always results in
a crash!

There is only one way to have light and also deep-ish aero rims and
that's with a carbon rim. Many choices out there but many share the
characteristics of poor hubs and big $. Reynolds is going to use DT
hubs this year and if there is an aftermarket wheel I like, it's
these. Boras are 'nice' too but lots of $$. Reynolds aren't cheap
either.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The original question asker could also consider buying the deep carbon
tubular rims and building them up with quality hubs. Zipp, for
instance, sells its carbon rims by themselves. You could then buy
2006 Record hubs in 28 hole drilling and have light wheels with the
best quality hubs for hundreds cheaper than Zipp sells its built up
wheels. 404 rims are about $450 each I think. Record hubs would be
$250. Aero, bladed, oval spokes at $1 each, $56 total. Around $1200
total. Other aftermarket wheel companies may also sell their rims
individually like Zipp does.

email hidden said:

On Mar 12, 7:22 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Mar 11, 8:29 am, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Mar 11, 8:29 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Mar 9, 5:47 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > I am in the market for a new set of race wheels.
> > My old set are Bontrager race x lite with conti sprinters and D/A 10
> > spd.
> > I race mainly in the midwest. Lots of fast flat crits. The road races
> > are rolling hills with some short steep climbs. Often the wind is a
> > big factor.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Thanks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> What do you want the 'new' wheels to do that your 'old' wheels aren't
> doing??

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I like my old set of race wheels.
It seems that the current trend is to a deeper V rim type.
I want to stay with tubulars. I have much more confidence in them.
I've seen to many clincher blow outs in races which always results in
a crash!

Quoted message said:

There is only one way to have light and also deep-ish aero rims and
that's with a carbon rim. Many choices out there but many share the
characteristics of poor hubs and big $. Reynolds is going to use DT
hubs this year and if there is an aftermarket wheel I like, it's
these. Boras are 'nice' too but lots of $$. Reynolds aren't cheap
either.- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

The original question asker could also consider buying the deep carbon
tubular rims and building them up with quality hubs. Zipp, for
instance, sells its carbon rims by themselves. You could then buy
2006 Record hubs in 28 hole drilling and have light wheels with the
best quality hubs for hundreds cheaper than Zipp sells its built up
wheels. 404 rims are about $450 each I think. Record hubs would be
$250. Aero, bladed, oval spokes at $1 each, $56 total. Around $1200
total. Other aftermarket wheel companies may also sell their rims
individually like Zipp does.

After seeing ANOTHER spoke pull thru a Zipp rim, not something I would
suggest or build. Too bad they are the only manufacturer selling
carbon rims alone.

I guess the gent could build the wheels but we charge $75 per for deep
rims, plus $2 each for DT ovals and a bit more for the hubs, if ya can
find 2006 ones.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

After seeing ANOTHER spoke pull thru a Zipp rim, not something I would
suggest or build. Too bad they are the only manufacturer selling
carbon rims alone.

Corima also sells carbon fibre rims alone, but I'm not sure what their
availability is like in the US - www.corima.com . They're not as light
as Zipp but I haven't heard bad things about them.

The problem I see with using high-quality hubs like Campagnolo Record
with deep-dish carbon fibre rims is the fact that Record hubs are only
available in 32 and 36 hole versions. Deep-dish carbon fibre rims are
so stiff that you can and SHOULD use a lot less spokes (especially in
the front) to get all of the performance benefit. Dura-ace hubs are
available in drillings like 18, 20, 24 and 28 though.

Antti

On Mar 12, 8:39 am, Antti Salonen <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The problem I see with using high-quality hubs like Campagnolo Record
with deep-dish carbon fibre rims is the fact that Record hubs are only
available in 32 and 36 hole versions.

Lace a 32h hub triplet style to a 24h rim (3x and 1x heads in), and
lace a 36h front hub to a 18h rim, 1x heads in.

Peter, do you really sell DT Aerolites for $2 each? That is a very
good price. Where do you get them?

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't mind seeing a good test that shows tubulars are better...
the two I referenced are modern and do not have anything to do with
Jobst... and they both show that clinchers are better. Both were
performed on rollers. I've always wondered if at least some tubulars
might be better if hard glue was used... or maybe there is some
"magical" vibration absorbtion that the gooey glue provides on real
pavement that compensates for the hysteresis losses. Most pros are
still using them, and I presume that some (like Lance) might have
tested these and found them to be faster. But I don't know if Sandy
will give us any info... anyone else?

Lance demanded that virtually everything be tested, and redesigned to do
better in the tests. But when it came to what he actually used, he'd often
throw out the test data and used what he liked. Aerodynamics, for example.
No expense was spared in getting the guy set up in the most-aero-possible
way, both position and equipment. But much of that equipment never made it
to the 'Tour, and of that which did, much got used by others and not Lance.

My point is simply that the pros don't always use something that's been
"proven" to be better. Many may continue to ride tubulars because it's
tradition, some may feel they are less likely to cause a crash in a blowout,
and others ride them because it's what they're given to ride and that's what
they do. Ride, not question what they ride or why.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't mind seeing a good test that shows tubulars are better...
the two I referenced are modern and do not have anything to do with
Jobst... and they both show that clinchers are better. Both were
performed on rollers. I've always wondered if at least some tubulars
might be better if hard glue was used... or maybe there is some
"magical" vibration absorbtion that the gooey glue provides on real
pavement that compensates for the hysteresis losses. Most pros are
still using them, and I presume that some (like Lance) might have
tested these and found them to be faster. But I don't know if Sandy
will give us any info... anyone else?

Lance demanded that virtually everything be tested, and redesigned to do
better in the tests. But when it came to what he actually used, he'd often
throw out the test data and used what he liked. Aerodynamics, for example.
No expense was spared in getting the guy set up in the most-aero-possible
way, both position and equipment. But much of that equipment never made it
to the 'Tour, and of that which did, much got used by others and not Lance.

In some of the most famous cases (I think we're back to the "narrow
bike" here, as famously chronicled in _Lance Armstrong's War_), the bike
was faster but Lance had physiological issues (hip problems) that made
the bike problematic in practice.

Quoted message said:

My point is simply that the pros don't always use something that's been
"proven" to be better. Many may continue to ride tubulars because it's
tradition, some may feel they are less likely to cause a crash in a blowout,
and others ride them because it's what they're given to ride and that's what
they do. Ride, not question what they ride or why.

The pros tend to put a surprising value of the comfort of their
equipment, most notably stuff like saddles. You'll often see the big
pros riding on some large-looking, rather dated saddles, mainly because
they glommed onto it as a comfortable choice early in their career, and
have not wanted to monkey with a marginal issue.

All things being equal, tubular wheels continue to be a bit lighter than
equivalent clincher wheels, and that may be the decisive advantage for a
pro team.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ron Ruff said:

On Mar 11, 6:35 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tubulars are clearly a better tire for high speed
cornering and they are safer. Clincher goes flat, it comes off the rim
in a turn, you crash.

I've had plenty of flat tires but they have *never* caused a crash. If
a clincher goes flat, then you quit riding on it! I don't think you'd
want to be cornering on a flat tubie either. The only time a tire has
caused me to crash was when a tubular rolled off in a turn during a
race. I've never had or seen a clincher "blow off"... not even in
crashes if the rim stays intact.

I've seen people hit their pedal in a turn causing their bike to hop
and a tire blowing off as a result. In one instance a guy blew off his
both his tires!

Ron Ruff said:

On Mar 12, 8:39 am, Antti Salonen <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The problem I see with using high-quality hubs like Campagnolo Record
with deep-dish carbon fibre rims is the fact that Record hubs are only
available in 32 and 36 hole versions.

Lace a 32h hub triplet style to a 24h rim (3x and 1x heads in), and
lace a 36h front hub to a 18h rim, 1x heads in.

Peter, do you really sell DT Aerolites for $2 each? That is a very
good price. Where do you get them?

Paceline.....