Race vs Self-test LTP testing

rob of the og said:

I'm looking at using a 40k timetrial as a repeatable LTP test over the winter and was looking for a little help. I found a study on pubmed that suggested no major differences between ltp achieved on the road vs turbo over the 40k distance, so as I'm not all that keen on the turbo's my intention is to use Maendy track (basically a shallow concrete track open for roadbike training) so that corners etc don't affect a consistant output. My question tho is whether anyone has any comments on differences achieved in self-testing as opposed to actual races - Joe Friel's book suggests dividing ltHR by 0.97 in this scenario, but would you use the same factor for Power?

you must live somewhere near me! i'm in sunny Llantrisant (in the Rhondda, not Newport).

Couple of things, lactate threshold is a low effort and isn't 40-km/25-m TT power (Friel get's it wrong). LT is the workload that elicits a 1 mmol/L increase in exercise baseline level lactate, which would give a lactate of ~ 2.x mmol/L. you'd also need to take blood to measure this...

if you want to know what power you can produce for a 25m TT, then really just ride one. you can also estimate it very closely from 2 x 20-mins at TT power. whatever you average for the 40-mins will be what you can generally average for a 25.

It's also very worthwhile to do a MAP test as well. see http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern this will allow you to see the ratio of TT power to MAP and help establish training goals.

i find i can get within a few watts of actual TT power in training, but it does vary from person to person and their motivation

ric

ric_stern/RST said:

you must live somewhere near me! i'm in sunny Llantrisant (in the Rhondda, not Newport).

Couple of things, lactate threshold is a low effort and isn't 40-km/25-m TT power (Friel get's it wrong). LT is the workload that elicits a 1 mmol/L increase in exercise baseline level lactate, which would give a lactate of ~ 2.x mmol/L. you'd also need to take blood to measure this...

if you want to know what power you can produce for a 25m TT, then really just ride one. you can also estimate it very closely from 2 x 20-mins at TT power. whatever you average for the 40-mins will be what you can generally average for a 25.

It's also very worthwhile to do a MAP test as well. see http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern this will allow you to see the ratio of TT power to MAP and help establish training goals.

i find i can get within a few watts of actual TT power in training, but it does vary from person to person and their motivation

ric

Thanks Ric. I'm living in Cardiff at the moment, but we're moving out to Llanharan next year which is just down the road from Llantrisant.

When you say that Friel has it wrong, do you just mean that he gets the term 'Lactate Threshold' wrong, or that his comparisons to 40k TT time are wrong?

I've read a lot about various protocols similar to the one you've written about and they look very useful - I'm only wary of them because (for cost reasons) I'm using a Polar S720i unit, so I'm not confident of getting much accuracy on a Turbo trainer. For this reason I'm looking at doing more of a field test and the timetrial test looks like an easy one to reproduce (and using a track rather than the road keeps conditions similar each time.) I guess there's no particular reason why a map test couldn't be done in the field tho.

thanks,
Rob

rob of the og said:

Thanks Ric. I'm living in Cardiff at the moment, but we're moving out to Llanharan next year which is just down the road from Llantrisant.

it is. i was down there yesterday having a potter in the lanes! very pretty round there.

Quoted post said:

When you say that Friel has it wrong, do you just mean that he gets the term 'Lactate Threshold' wrong, or that his comparisons to 40k TT time are wrong?

in his use of terminology -- he uses (incorrectly) the term LT to cover a time trial effort. he (and many others as well) also use it to cover a HR reading (which shouldn't be done) and also messes up critical power as well.

Quoted post said:

I've read a lot about various protocols similar to the one you've written about and they look very useful - I'm only wary of them because (for cost reasons) I'm using a Polar S720i unit, so I'm not confident of getting much accuracy on a Turbo trainer. For this reason I'm looking at doing more of a field test and the timetrial test looks like an easy one to reproduce (and using a track rather than the road keeps conditions similar each time.)

i've not been to maendy, so i could be talking rubbish, but isn't it outdoors, and thus, conditions won't be the same. not that, that matters, assuming you stay in relatively similar conditions and don't change dramatically change altitude it doesn't matter -- power is power.

Quoted post said:

I guess there's no particular reason why a map test couldn't be done in the field tho.

to be honest i'm not sure. i've never tried it, being that there's no flat roads round here to try (not withstanding maendy). you'll have to give it a go and let me know.

ric

Ric, again thanks for the info, especially for replying so quickly 🙂

ric_stern/RST said:

it is. i was down there yesterday having a potter in the lanes! very pretty round there.

in his use of terminology -- he uses (incorrectly) the term LT to cover a time trial effort. he (and many others as well) also use it to cover a HR reading (which shouldn't be done) and also messes up critical power as well.

ric

just to be sure then, the recommendations in Friel's book for basing work outs on %'s of 40k TT time are still valid, with the caveat that they'll be more relevant if I compare also to a map test?

ric_stern/RST said:

i've not been to maendy, so i could be talking rubbish, but isn't it outdoors, and thus, conditions won't be the same. not that, that matters, assuming you stay in relatively similar conditions and don't change dramatically change altitude it doesn't matter -- power is power.

ric

yeah Maendy's outside, but I think conditions should be at least be more similar than could be achieved on the road. My plan is to use the same time of day, once a month over the winter, at the end of my rest weeks during Friel's periodisation plan.

ric_stern/RST said:

to be honest i'm not sure. i've never tried it, being that there's no flat roads round here to try (not withstanding maendy). you'll have to give it a go and let me know.

ric

Well I'll give it a crack once my season's over. Not used a power meter on the track before, so I don't know if it will be any steadier than on the road.

thanks
Rob

rob of the og said:

Ric, again thanks for the info, especially for replying so quickly 🙂

just to be sure then, the recommendations in Friel's book for basing work outs on %'s of 40k TT time are still valid, with the caveat that they'll be more relevant if I compare also to a map test?

Friel doesn't base workouts on 40k TT with power, but his version of critical power... i've no idea how his zones workout based on HR, i'd also recommend using power zones. i recommend my zones! additionally, there's andy coggans zones based on 1-hr TT power.

ric

ric_stern/RST said:

Friel doesn't base workouts on 40k TT with power, but his version of critical power... i've no idea how his zones workout based on HR, i'd also recommend using power zones. i recommend my zones! additionally, there's andy coggans zones based on 1-hr TT power.

ric

sorry yeah, I've been trying to combine his HR and Power recommendations and my last post referred more to my hybrid than his original recommendations. Andy Coggan's zones are included in the Cyclepeaks software so those would be easy to use; I'm sure yours are excellent too!

I'm new to power after a long time using hr (I never bothered testing hr, I just worked back from estimated max values.) I'll see how I get on with it for a few months, then I may have to start paying you to figure it out for me!

rob of the og said:

sorry yeah, I've been trying to combine his HR and Power recommendations and my last post referred more to my hybrid than his original recommendations. Andy Coggan's zones are included in the Cyclepeaks software so those would be easy to use; I'm sure yours are excellent too!

i wouldn't combine them, just use either HR or power. If you want to do a MAP test, then let me know and i can arrange one for you, with a Power Tap.

in you're in a club/team, we also do grou p discounts. do i know you by the way?

cheers
ric

ric_stern/RST said:

i wouldn't combine them, just use either HR or power. If you want to do a MAP test, then let me know and i can arrange one for you, with a Power Tap.

in you're in a club/team, we also do grou p discounts. do i know you by the way?

cheers
ric

Most of the workouts in his book are given in heart rate levels, so I was trying to combine to get an idea of the power that was equivalent. As I say, I'm using a polar s720i, so I'd prefer to do tests on that really so that I can directly compare results and get around some of the problems people have talked about wrt the polar results.

I don't think we've met, I'm Rob Powell from Ogmore Valley Wh's. 2 years ago I was at 2nd cat level and improving quite quickly but the last 2 years have been disappointing (1st as I came to the end of my degree and then when I started work, energy for training and racing suddenly got a lot more limited) and I've struggled to place much. The last 2 or 3 months I've been training hard again, have lost a lot of weight and starting to get competitive again - I'm getting better numbers (in terms of times for particular hills, average speeds for the same courses) than ever, and I'm back in the breaks rather than off the back which is nice! Now I'm really motivated to have a proper off-season and see what I can do next year, hence getting the power set-up.

rob of the og said:

Most of the workouts in his book are given in heart rate levels, so I was trying to combine to get an idea of the power that was equivalent. As I say, I'm using a polar s720i, so I'd prefer to do tests on that really so that I can directly compare results and get around some of the problems people have talked about wrt the polar results.

assuming that you've correctly set up your Polar the results should be comparable from the 720 to the PT

Quoted post said:

I don't think we've met, I'm Rob Powell from Ogmore Valley Wh's. 2 years ago I was at 2nd cat level and improving quite quickly but the last 2 years have been disappointing (1st as I came to the end of my degree and then when I started work, energy for training and racing suddenly got a lot more limited) and I've struggled to place much. The last 2 or 3 months I've been training hard again, have lost a lot of weight and starting to get competitive again - I'm getting better numbers (in terms of times for particular hills, average speeds for the same courses) than ever, and I'm back in the breaks rather than off the back which is nice! Now I'm really motivated to have a proper off-season and see what I can do next year, hence getting the power set-up.

sounds good. give me a shout if you want to a training partner

ric