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race report: Queens Half Marathon

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
17 May 2004
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25 May 2004
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Donovan Rebbech
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  1. The race: Queens Half
    Conditions: 65-70, hazy, humid
    Time: 1:22:41 (slow)
    Place: 34th overall, 15th age group (best on a team points race)

    The queens half marathon wraps up a sequence of 4 races in
    the peak part of my program. The other three were a 4 mile,
    a mile, and a 5k all of which went quite well. But I'm
    finding that it's no fun to report on races that go as
    smoothly as these. This half marathon on the other hand was
    more interesting.

    Went to bed early the night before, had to get up at 3:30.
    Left home at 4:00 to get to the place where the "race bus"
    departed at 6. The buses were chaotic, but they got me to
    the race in good time. Though the weather warned of morning
    thunderstorms, it was thankfully cool and clear when I got
    to the race. Did some jogging and a couple of strides before
    the race -- my running legs felt great having rested two
    days, I felt 100%. The good weather short-lived, it was
    already warming up at race time, and my team mates and I
    quickly realised this could make for a slow race. But I
    really wanted a PR and a sub 1:20.

    I had recently run a 5 mile tempo at a 6:20 pace under
    similarly tough conditions -- warm though not hot, and the
    pace had felt right. I should have taken this as a warning,
    but I didn't.

    The horn went off. I plodded the first mile. Jogged it at
    snails pace. So I was surprised to see the 1 mile mark at
    just over 6 minutes. Next mile settled in to a stable pace:
    6:09. I was joined by another runner. The field was very
    sparse, it was just me and this other guy. Some of my faster
    teammates were up ahead. I made a point of keeping a good
    distance behind them. Cat and mouse game with this runner
    for the next few miles: mile 3 in 6:08, mile 4 in
    6:08, mile 5 in 6:17, mile 6 in 6:20, halfway in 40:30. I
    wasn't feeling worn out at the half way mark, but I knew
    that I was more exhausted than I should be at this stage
    and I needed to adjust my goals.

    Somewhere along the way my coach yells out that I'm the 5th
    team scorer. This seems odd since one of the "tier 2" guys
    on my team is ahead of me and 4 of the really fast guys are
    in the race -- but I had only seen 3 of these fast guys
    ahead of me, so I figured the coach was right. While I was
    on pace at halfway to beat my 1:21:49 from last race, I was
    slower than sub 1:20 and my momentum was gone (that is, on
    the last two splits I was not going to get a good time) so I
    figured I should just hang on and try not to let every man
    and his dog overtake me. This race wasn't going to be about
    time anymore, it was going to be all about guts and
    prevailing under tough conditions. The heat and humidity
    worked in a subtle way -- I didn't feel hot so much as I
    simply felt weak.

    7th mile split came in 6:11. 8 in 6:13. This was good, back
    on pace. But then 9 and 10 came in 6:33 and 6:38. I was
    starting to wonder if I could hold on -- and I realised that
    I was a sitting duck for anyone who was able to surge from
    behind. Fortunately, it seems that for the most part they
    were either too far back or they were dropping too. Some
    were able to overtake me, I didn't try to fight back -- they
    were going too fast. Giving it everything, I managed two
    miles in 6:31 and 6:24, and the last 1.1 in 7:01 (6:22 pace)
    -- not all that fast but good enough to hold back those who
    held right back in the first half. Outkicked one of the guys
    who overtook me earlier for a 34th place. Finishing time
    1:22:41 with splits 40:30/42:11. More positive that I would
    have liked (I like to run negative) but not lopsided enough
    to really hurt.

    The interesting thing about this race was the way the heat
    worked -- it was not hot enough to really beat down upon
    you, but still hot enough to divert blood from oxygen
    transport to cooling. The end result of this is that one
    feels very weak. Times were very slow for this race compared
    to my previous half, with the more experienced runners at
    least 2:30 slower than the previous race. The course wasn't
    hilly. Lots of turns which may have made distance longer
    (USATF measures the shortest possible route which no-one can
    match) but it seemed like a good course for a PR under
    better conditions. My place, 34th overall was a big jump
    from my previous half (64th). Bob Glover's 1 second per mile
    per degree (above 60) rule of thumb doesn't seem that far
    off after all.

    Anyway, that's enough racing for me for now. Time to just
    enjoy the summer, do some easy jogging and bring out my
    water bottle.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflord

  2. Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    The race: Queens Half Conditions: 65-70, hazy, humid Time:
    1:22:41 (slow)

    Slow relative to what you had hoped. But so was everyone
    else. So don't be too hard on yourself.

    Quoted message said:

    The interesting thing about this race was the way the heat
    worked -- it was not hot enough to really beat down upon
    you, but still hot enough to divert blood from oxygen
    transport to cooling. The end result of this is that one
    feels very weak.

    Are your training runs done during similar temps?

    Quoted message said:

    Bob Glover's 1 second per mile per degree (above 60) rule
    of thumb doesn't seem that far off after all.

    I've never heard of that. It seems to simple.

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, that's enough racing for me for now. Time to just
    enjoy the summer

    Yes. You've earned it. Nice rice. Enjoyed the report.

    Phil M.

    --
    "Get outta here. You're killin' me"

  3. "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    The race: Queens Half Conditions: 65-70, hazy, humid Time:
    1:22:41 (slow) Place: 34th overall, 15th age group (best
    on a team points race)

    Quoted message said:

    I had recently run a 5 mile tempo at a 6:20 pace under
    similarly tough conditions -- warm though not hot, and the
    pace had felt right. I should


    have

    Quoted message said:

    taken this as a warning, but I didn't.

    65F with about 40 - 50% humidity and a dewpoint of 56 isn't
    that bad (Queens weather at 9 this morning)! Maybe you just
    had an off day, or your are highly affected by warmer
    weather. I do know what you mean about the sun being hot in
    the spring even when the temps aren't really that bad. It
    can be really deceiving, for sure.

    Quoted message said:

    The interesting thing about this race was the way the heat
    worked -- it


    was not

    Quoted message said:

    hot enough to really beat down upon you, but still hot
    enough to divert


    blood

    Quoted message said:

    from oxygen transport to cooling. The end result of this
    is that one feels


    very

    Quoted message said:

    weak.

    That sucks that this happened to you. 🙁

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, that's enough racing for me for now. Time to just
    enjoy the


    summer,

    Quoted message said:

    do some easy jogging and bring out my water bottle.

    I can see why you don't race in the summer - I like summer
    racing. I find my times start to suffer at about 30C (86F),
    but if it's below 50% humidity I can take higher without too
    much discomfort. I know that Cam (onemarathon) is like this
    too, and we are both from Canada. hmmm..... maybe we are so
    warmth-starved that we'll happily run in sauna-like
    conditions. 🙂

    Better luck next race - hope the summer training brings
    great fall times.

    cheers,
    --
    David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
    insecure people are the ones you see putting other people
    down constantly."

  4. In article said:

    Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    The race: Queens Half Conditions: 65-70, hazy, humid
    Time: 1:22:41 (slow)

    Slow relative to what you had hoped. But so was everyone
    else. So don't be too hard on yourself.

    Yep, I'll take it -- this was a race that was about guts,
    not about times. I'm just glad I was able to hang in there
    and slug it ouT.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The interesting thing about this race was the way the
    heat worked -- it was not hot enough to really beat down
    upon you, but still hot enough to divert blood from
    oxygen transport to cooling. The end result of this is
    that one feels very weak.

    Are your training runs done during similar temps?

    Nope. Well not prior to this race. I suppose I'll be getting
    some heat training this summer, but not much racing.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Bob Glover's 1 second per mile per degree (above 60) rule
    of thumb doesn't seem that far off after all.

    I've never heard of that. It seems to simple.

    You know, Bob's rules of thumb are so simple that I
    sometimes wonder if he's got a few screws loose. Then when
    my own experience prove him right (as it always does), I
    think he's a genius in disguise. There's something to be
    said for keeping it simple, especially when you're a coach
    who is trying to communicate training ideas to other people.

    Like most of Bob's rules of thumb, it's simple, but it also
    seems to work quite well. For example, most runners were
    about 10 minutes off in Boston ( 85 degrees). I had
    teammates who were good for 2:50s in NY who were slower than
    3 hours in Boston. Andy Hass ran a "slow" 2:38 in Boston,
    and yet placed well.

    Once the heat kicks in, you've got to go out slow and stop
    thinking about time: the hot weather turns it into a
    survivors race, not a time trial. All about patience,
    conserving energy and outlasting the other guys.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflord

  5. In article said:

    "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    The race: Queens Half Conditions: 65-70, hazy, humid
    Time: 1:22:41 (slow) Place: 34th overall, 15th age group
    (best on a team points race)

    Quoted message said:

    I had recently run a 5 mile tempo at a 6:20 pace under
    similarly tough conditions -- warm though not hot, and
    the pace had felt right. I should


    have

    Quoted message said:

    taken this as a warning, but I didn't.

    65F with about 40 - 50% humidity and a dewpoint of 56
    isn't that bad (Queens weather at 9 this morning)!

    Wrong morning -- race was Saturday, and it was warmer than
    65F.

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe you just had an off day,

    Yes, me and over a thousand runners -- maybe we all had
    an off day.

    Quoted message said:

    or your are highly affected by warmer weather.

    But that's just fine with me, as long as everyone else is
    even more highly affected (-;

    Quoted message said:

    That sucks that this happened to you. 🙁

    Yeah, I know. Hopefully, we'll get to run a real race
    together one of these days as opposed to these virtual
    online matchups (-; That or I'll enter a time trialers race.

    Quoted message said:

    Better luck next race - hope the summer training brings
    great fall times.

    There are a couple of good time-trialers races in Sept. Who
    knows, I might even make it to Boston 05. Lookout (-;

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflord

  6. You managed to tough it out in warm conditions - no PR, but
    still a good result as your overall placing shows.

    I know how much difference the heat makes. I've run
    identical sessions at the track, spaced a week apart with my
    HRM - the difference between a "cool" day and a "warm" day
    was iirc 130 and 145 average.

    Enjoy the break from racing - you should be ready for some
    new PRs and maybe a crack at the marathon when the cooler
    weather returns...

    Anthony.

  7. You managed to tough it out in warm conditions - no PR, but
    still a good result as your overall placing shows.

    I know how much difference the heat makes. I've run
    identical sessions at the track, spaced a week apart with my
    HRM - the difference between a "cool" day and a "warm" day
    was iirc 130 and 145 average.

    Enjoy the break from racing - you should be ready for some
    new PRs and maybe a crack at the marathon when the cooler
    weather returns...

    Anthony.

  8. "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    SwStudio said:

    "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    I had recently run a 5 mile tempo at a 6:20 pace under
    similarly tough conditions -- warm though not hot, and
    the pace had felt right. I


    should

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    have taken this as a warning, but I didn't.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    65F with about 40 - 50% humidity and a dewpoint of 56
    isn't that bad (Queens weather at 9 this morning)!

    Wrong morning -- race was Saturday, and it was warmer
    than 65F.

    Oooops, my bad! Sorry. 🙂

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Maybe you just had an off day,

    Yes, me and over a thousand runners -- maybe we all had an
    off day.

    Now how on earth did you find out over a thousand runners in
    your race had an off day? Surely you don't know what
    everyone expected or what their regular times were! ;-)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That sucks that this happened to you. 🙁

    Yeah, I know. Hopefully, we'll get to run a real race
    together one of


    these

    Quoted message said:

    days as opposed to these virtual online matchups (-;

    LOL, when did these online matchups start? I had no idea you
    had picked me as someone to virtually race against. ;-)
    What's the score, anyway?

    cheers,
    --
    David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
    insecure people are the ones you see putting other people
    down constantly."

  9. In article said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yes, me and over a thousand runners -- maybe we all had
    an off day.

    Now how on earth did you find out over a thousand runners
    in your race had an off day? Surely you don't know what
    everyone expected or what their regular times were! ;-)

    The field were uniformly slower -- my team, other teams,
    etc. Many people placed well with slow performances.

    Quoted message said:

    LOL, when did these online matchups start?

    Just found it amusing that we both had a HM at the same
    time, and it also coincided with your earlier killfile joke.
    I actually meant it in jest, I don't really care what my r.r
    "ranking" is (as long as I beat Roger ;-)

    Quoted message said:

    I had no idea you had picked me as someone to virtually
    race against. ;-) What's the score, anyway?

    I think you have a lead of about 1-2 minutes in the half.
    Look out for that bright yellow singlet behind you (-;

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflord

  10. Quoted message said:

    "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    SwStudio wrote: I had no idea you had picked me as
    someone to virtually race against.


    ;-)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What's the score, anyway?

    I think you have a lead of about 1-2 minutes in the half.
    Look out for that bright yellow singlet behind you (-;

    1 - 2 minutes in a half?!? Holy [censored], I didn't realize you
    were that fast - that's awesome! What is your half
    marathon PR?

    cheers,
    --
    David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
    insecure people are the ones you see putting other people
    down constantly."

  11. In article said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    SwStudio wrote: I had no idea you had picked me as
    someone to virtually race against.


    ;-)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What's the score, anyway?

    I think you have a lead of about 1-2 minutes in the half.
    Look out for that bright yellow singlet behind you (-;

    1 - 2 minutes in a half?!? Holy [censored], I didn't realize you
    were that fast - that's awesome! What is your half
    marathon PR?

    I've only run two half-marathons, one was back in March
    (1:21:49) and the other was slow (1:22:46). So to some
    extent, I have to extrapolate from my 4 mile performance
    (22:38 -> 1:19:24) or "heat-adjust" my recent half-marathon
    performance (based on my teammates performances, I'd
    consider a 2 minute bonus to be conservative). My mile time
    "doesn't count" for predicting anything besides mile times.

    Of course you could respond by saying that this is all a
    load of hot air until I actually run a fast half marathon,
    and I wouldn't disagree with you (but I promise you I will
    run that fast half-marathon! Probably some time in Sept.)

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflord

  12. "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    I've only run two half-marathons, one was back in March
    (1:21:49) and the other was slow (1:22:46). So to some
    extent, I have to extrapolate from my 4 mile performance
    (22:38 -> 1:19:24) or "heat-adjust" my recent


    half-marathon

    Quoted message said:

    performance (based on my teammates performances, I'd
    consider a 2 minute


    bonus

    Quoted message said:

    to be conservative). My mile time "doesn't count" for
    predicting anything besides mile times.

    Of course you could respond by saying that this is all a
    load of hot air


    until

    Quoted message said:

    I actually run a fast half marathon, and I wouldn't
    disagree with you (but


    I

    Quoted message said:

    promise you I will run that fast half-marathon! Probably
    some time in


    Sept.)

    I wouldn't call it a 'load of hot air' (I believe you have
    the talent and the drive), but certainly where I come from
    you generally can't 'heat adjust' (or whatever) a race time
    - you can complain, you can say "I know I could have run
    faster!!!"... but until you do, you didn't, and it's nothing
    but musing.

    I know damn well I can run a marathon at least 20 minutes
    faster than my current PR of 3:10:54... but until I do, it's
    all talk!!

    Best of luck with your training over the summer. You're a
    good runner and person and I hope you achieve your goals.

    cheers,
    --
    David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
    insecure people are the ones you see putting other people
    down constantly."

  13. "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    SwStudio


    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    > In article
    > <[email hidden]>,


    SwStudio said:

    I've only run two half-marathons, one was back in March
    (1:21:49)


    and the

    Quoted message said:

    other was slow (1:22:46). So to some extent, I have to
    extrapolate


    from my

    Quoted message said:

    4 mile performance (22:38 -> 1:19:24) or "heat-adjust"
    my recent


    half-marathon

    Quoted message said:

    performance (based on my teammates performances, I'd
    consider a 2


    minute bonus

    Quoted message said:

    to be conservative). My mile time "doesn't count" for
    predicting


    anything

    Quoted message said:

    besides mile times.

    Extraopolating 4 miles to 13? Talk about using mathematical
    tea leaves. 😉

    -DougF

  14. "SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    I've only run two half-marathons, one was back in March


    (1:21:49) and the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    other was slow (1:22:46). So to some extent, I have to


    extrapolate from my

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    4 mile performance (22:38 -> 1:19:24) or "heat-adjust"
    my recent


    half-marathon I wouldn't call it a 'load of hot air' (I
    believe you have the


    talent and

    Quoted message said:

    the drive), but certainly where I come from you
    generally can't


    'heat

    Quoted message said:

    adjust' (or whatever) a race time - you can complain,
    you can say


    "I

    Quoted message said:

    know I could have run faster!!!"... but until you do,
    you didn't,


    and

    Quoted message said:

    it's nothing but musing.

    I know damn well I can run a marathon at least 20 minutes
    faster than my current PR of 3:10:54... but until I do,
    it's all talk!!

    I don't want to appear like I'm piling on but you raise a
    good point. I'm not anti-math, I be one of dem, but using
    those dumb **cking myopic tables to predict is Russian
    Roulette. There are times knowing numbers can cause more
    harm than good and the marathon is one. Even with
    experience it's still a [censored] shoot, albeit you can trim the
    variables slightly.

    Quoted message said:


    Best of luck with your training over the summer. You're a
    good runner and person and I hope you achieve your goals.

    I agree.

    -DougF

  15. In article said:

    Extraopolating 4 miles to 13? Talk about using
    mathematical tea leaves. 😉

    I've run pretty consistent WAVA scores from 5k-HM at any
    given time. Note that Dan has reported similar observations
    (consistent WAVA numbers from 5k to marathon) I'd hardly
    call it "tea leaves".

    Sure if the 5k is on a track in cool weather and the
    marathon is on some hilly trail with 20% inclines and
    descents it doesn't work so well. But I am not using road
    races to predict trail-hill-race times. I'm using road races
    to predict road races *at the same venue under the same
    conditions*. Hilly trail ultras might well be your "typical
    race", but as far as I'm concerned it's an irrelevant corner
    case. I know that prediction formulas are useless for such
    races but frankly I don't care.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflord

  16. In article said:

    "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    I've only run two half-marathons, one was back in March
    (1:21:49) and the other was slow (1:22:46). So to some
    extent, I have to extrapolate from my 4 mile performance
    (22:38 -> 1:19:24) or "heat-adjust" my recent half-
    marathon performance (based on my teammates performances,
    I'd consider a 2 minute bonus to be conservative). My
    mile time "doesn't count" for predicting anything besides
    mile times.

    Of course you could respond by saying that this is all a
    load of hot air until I actually run a fast half
    marathon, and I wouldn't disagree with you (but I promise
    you I will run that fast half-marathon! Probably some
    time in Sept.)

    I wouldn't call it a 'load of hot air' (I believe you
    have the talent and the drive), but certainly where I
    come from you generally can't 'heat adjust' (or whatever)
    a race time -

    Yes, but everyone runs the same race in a "real world"
    matchup. So I can say, "hey Jeremy, you ran 1:20 but my
    1:22 is actually 1:19 heat adjusted -- so I beat you" to
    which he could say "then my heat adjusted time is 1:18. So
    I still win".

    IMO the only fair way to do an online "race" (if we may
    momentarily excuse the silliness of such an idea) is to
    allow everyone to take their best race over any distance in
    the range of 5k-marathon. That way, everyone gets to pick a
    race that was run under best case (for them) conditions. So
    I'd pick my 4 mile PR (22:38). You'd probably pick your 5k
    PR. Some may pick their best marathon.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflord

  17. In article said:


    "SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    I've only run two half-marathons, one was back in March


    (1:21:49) and the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    other was slow (1:22:46). So to some extent, I have to


    extrapolate from my

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    4 mile performance (22:38 -> 1:19:24) or "heat-adjust"
    my recent


    half-marathon I wouldn't call it a 'load of hot air' (I
    believe you have the


    talent and

    Quoted message said:

    the drive), but certainly where I come from you
    generally can't


    'heat

    Quoted message said:

    adjust' (or whatever) a race time - you can complain, you
    can say


    "I

    Quoted message said:

    know I could have run faster!!!"... but until you do, you
    didn't,


    and

    Quoted message said:

    it's nothing but musing.

    I know damn well I can run a marathon at least 20 minutes
    faster than my current PR of 3:10:54... but until I do,
    it's all talk!!

    I don't want to appear like I'm piling on but you raise a
    good point. I'm not anti-math, I be one of dem, but using
    those dumb **cking myopic tables to predict is Russian
    Roulette.

    Depends on how you use them. I think if you have an over-
    distance race and an under-distance race, taking the lesser
    of the two performances is reasonably conservative (assuming
    similar course and weather). For example, I could take my
    best 4 mile time, and my best HM time and predict 10k times
    from both of those. The time based on the HM performance is
    slower, so I can use that as a conservative 10k goal (or if
    I was a risk-taker, I could reach for the prediction off the
    4 mile time)

    Also, I have prior data that the tables work well *for me*,
    so I'm comfortable using them.

    Quoted message said:

    There are times knowing numbers can cause more harm than
    good and the marathon is one.

    The marathon is an unpredictable race. I disagree about
    "knowing numbers" doing harm -- for example, a lot of people
    I know would have done well to understand the effect of heat
    *before* they ran Boston, instead of discovering it in the
    last 6 miles of the race.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflord

  18. "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>, Doug


    Freese said:

    I've run pretty consistent WAVA scores from 5k-HM at
    any given


    time. Note that

    Quoted message said:

    Dan has reported similar observations (consistent
    WAVA numbers


    from 5k to

    Quoted message said:

    marathon) I'd hardly call it "tea leaves".

    But both of you are experienced runners and with your level
    of training extrapolating to the HM is in fact your wheel
    house. It's moistly the inexperienced, under trained that
    tend to use these tables. My point is using these tables to
    go from the 10k or even HM to the marathon is the leap of
    faith and where people discover that time and age are just
    two of the bzillion variables that come into the equation
    for 26.2. For every positive use of the table there are ten
    failures that you don't hear about.

    Quoted message said:

    Sure if the 5k is on a track in cool weather and the
    marathon is


    on some hilly

    Quoted message said:

    trail with 20% inclines and descents it doesn't work so
    well. But


    I am not

    Quoted message said:

    using road races to predict trail-hill-race times. I'm
    using road


    races to

    Quoted message said:

    predict road races *at the same venue under the same
    conditions*.


    Hilly trail

    Quoted message said:

    ultras might well be your "typical race", but as far as
    I'm


    concerned it's an

    Quoted message said:

    irrelevant corner case. I know that prediction
    formulas are


    useless for such

    Quoted message said:

    races but frankly I don't care.

    I was not referencing ultras(most people come from the roads
    and tend to laugh at those tables) or hilly trail races just
    my two dozen road marathons including 10 Boston's and nearly
    20 years of experience to suggest those tables are
    equivalent to tea leaves for all but the top runners. From
    my experience plus a running club to include about 500 with
    many doing marathons, those who used the tables to determine
    pace had very bad results.

    Just one anecdote which proves nothing. A girl that trained
    with me last winter did the Burlington Vermont marathon. She
    had a great strength from my runs through march. We talked
    about pace and she was similar to many and looked up her 10k
    times and the tables suggested she should run about 8's. I
    suggested to her that was too fast and try 8:20 -8:30's and
    finish strong. Like others she is very type A and
    competitive and put the speedometer on 8:0n's. Vermont is an
    easy course.

    As soon as she got back she called. Her opening words, "I
    should has listened." She [censored] the bed about mile 21 and was
    looking for a gun store but it was Sunday and they were
    closed . I'll summarize it this way, if you a rookie,
    inexperienced at the marathon distance(less than two or
    three) and have those tables in your favorite running book,
    use then to start a fire.

    -DougF

  19. "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    Yes, but everyone runs the same race in a "real world"
    matchup. So I can


    say,

    Quoted message said:

    "hey Jeremy, you ran 1:20 but my 1:22 is actually 1:19
    heat adjusted -- so


    I

    Quoted message said:

    beat you" to which he could say "then my heat adjusted
    time is 1:18. So I


    still

    Quoted message said:

    win".

    Okay, I understand. It's just a difference in opinion. Like
    I said - around here you can't 'extrapolate' anything... if
    you want to say you can run X distance in X time, there's
    only one way - you run X distance in X time. Whether it a
    friendly online competition or two neighbours, it's all the
    same to me.

    If I run a 5k in what I perceive to be horrible conditions,
    I may make an 'adjustment' to make myself feel better in my
    own mind, but it would be silly to tell someone who has ran
    the same distance faster than me that I can do it too, as I
    have not. It doesn't really matter how perfect the
    conditions were for him. I have to wait my turn for a race
    is good conditions to prove myself.

    I would be laughed at horribly by my running friends if I
    tried to pull this "adjustment" nonsense to create
    'virtual' PR's. I don't mean that as an insult, it's
    seriously the truth!

    cheers,
    --
    David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
    insecure people are the ones you see putting other people
    down constantly."

  20. SwStudio said:

    "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    Yes, but everyone runs the same race in a "real world"
    matchup. So I can


    say,

    Quoted message said:

    "hey Jeremy, you ran 1:20 but my 1:22 is actually 1:19
    heat adjusted -- so


    I

    Quoted message said:

    beat you" to which he could say "then my heat adjusted
    time is 1:18. So I


    still

    Quoted message said:

    win".

    Okay, I understand. It's just a difference in opinion.
    Like I said - around here you can't 'extrapolate'
    anything... if you

    Fine, but I'm allowed to choose my best time (out of the
    ones I've actually run over any distance), right ?

    I'll leave you to extrapolate it or not.

    Quoted message said:

    I would be laughed at horribly by my running friends if I
    tried to pull this "adjustment" nonsense to create
    'virtual' PR's. I don't

    There is no "virtual" PR. There is a single best performance
    that best reflects my ability, which is my 22:38 4-miler. If
    you don't feel comfortable normalising that performance to
    some more general scale (like vdot, wava ag%, predicted half
    marathon time, etc) that's fine, but this doesn't bode well
    for the future of virtual competition (though I concede that
    this is a loss I can live with ;-)

    Personally, I don't really care much for "soft" PRs. I want
    best all-time performances (I usually use WAVA to measure
    these, since nyrrc reports it, but other performance scales
    like vdot give the same rank-ordering to my middle distance
    performances, so it doesn't matter to me which scale I use)
    Right now I could run a 15k in over an hour and it would be
    a "PR" in the sense that I've never raced a 15k before.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflord

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