Quit knocking Zabel.

zabel will never win the green jersey again!!!!

i think 😕

musette said:

Finally, having been among the early proponents of removal of Zabel from Tour team a few years ago, I am thrilled to announce: ...

"Zabel to Stay Home in July

In a stunning and unexpected turn of events, T-Mobile's Erik Zabel today announced that he would not be riding the Tour of France this year. "I realize how important it is to have everyone on the Tour team riding 100% for Jan Ullrich," he said. "Who am I to stand in the way? Besides, Jan needs all the help he can get. I think I will just train."" From Daily Peloton

Now, JU has to muster his "friend" Kloden to work for him 100%. He has to "eliminate" Zabel from the position of TM potential team leader, and make sure Kloden becomes his domestique 100% starting from now. He must get rid of the TM management's opportunity to "wait and see". JU must do this now, go in for the kill in terms of his control of the team, since the media is focused on JU/Tour.

First, Kloden was the most vocal, in the press, about removal of Zabel from Tour team. Kloden is now between a rock and a hard place, because, after Zabel said that everybody should work for JU, Zabel would be hard-placed to say that everybody should ride for whoever is in the best form (including himself, as applicable). Second, if Kloden were indirectly viewed as campaigning to rid Zabel from the team for his OWN ADVANTAGE, that would be disastrous for Kloden in the public's mind, given how much they like Zabel and how hard-working Zabel is. So Zabel is in a tough spot. This is perfect, in that not only Zabel is removed, but Kloden is compromised in his ability to challenge JU. JU is too nice to do all of this, but this is the evident path. This is the time for JU to seize the day and address Kloden's infidelities last year for year. Go and talk to the media. Tell them, after Zabel has so honorably done this for yourself, you will not fail people. Get people to embrace JU as the only hope to beat LA before LA retires -- get the German media whipped up into a frenzy so much that Kloden will be scared to try something for his own GC chances. Seize the day!

But removal of Zabel is definitely positive.

ummm, look at the date that article was published 😄 .

Erik Zabel is not Jan Ullrich's problem ...... Lance is.. Erik may be past his prime , but he deserves to be at the TDF... He has not abandoned his TM teamates as Ullrich has , he hasn't tested positive as Ullrich has , and he is very popular with the German press...... As Ullrich is. Ullrich may be past his prime too ..... Ullrich has lost the TDF , not his team-mates.

Zabel is a great rider. Maybe T-mobile should consider backing Zabel for the green...... Jan does not seem to be able to bring it home.....

Yes, the earlier report from Daily Peloton was probably an April Fool's situation from Daily Peloton. That's too bad.

Here's part of what I'm talking about, in terms of DC doing better in recruiting domestiques who are happy in that role and who are not super-ambitious. Trek, a close sponsor of USPS, wrote about Ace's role in 2004. In it, one can see part of what is DC's recruiting philosophy. DC has domestiques who see it as a professional challenge to assist their leader, LA.

"Of course Azevedo wouldn’t mind standing on the podium on the Champs Elysees. The Portuguese has already proven, that he has the ability for such an accomplishment, when he finished sixth in 2002. But Azevedo certainly will not aim for such a feat.

“Jose rides 100% for the team," Chechu Rubiera praises Azevedo. Just like he did at Plateau de Beille. He gave his maximum until five kilometers before the finish – the place where Lance attacked. For the rest of the climb he just struggled to make it up, with whatever strength he could still dig up. Had he ridden for his own success he probably would have dropped back earlier, maintained a steadier speed and finished third or fourth instead of seventh.

But Azevedo knows his place in professional cycling. He has made the choice to be a helper for a champion instead of collecting second or third places for himself. That is his role now and it was his role for his previous team ONCE. At ONCE, he helped Joseba Beloki, the 2002 Tour runner-up, to try to win the Tour. Now he is helping Lance. “First I helped the second best rider in the world, now I am helping the best”, he says. For a top notch helper, that is the best job there is. And Azevedo sees it as a professional challenge.
In professional cycling there is pride in being a good helper – a good helper such as Azevedo finds acknowledgement and admiration among his peers. At this Tour Azevedo is the best helper of them all. And rides the for the best leader. And after the Pyrenee stages it seems as if they are invincible together."

http://www.trekbikes.com/tour_de_france/news/daily_updates/daily_article.jsp?articleId=8984&category=tdfdailynews04

More on Ace, from a lengthy Cyclingnews interview:

"CN: You were an ace in this year's Tour de France; I think you exceeded everyone's expectations by being the key teammate for Lance Armstrong in his sixth Tour de France win. How do you look back on your Tour?

JA: I'm happy with my work. And happy that my work was positive for Lance. Before I came to the team, Johan told me, 'If you come, your job is to help Lance win the Tour.' After I signed my contract, I kept that thought in my mind every day and wanted to be sure of that when the Tour started, that I was ready for the job.

I felt good in the Tour and I worked for Lance and I think that not only me, but the rest of the [USPS] team was in a good moment then. So the Ace wasn't just me, it was the whole team, all the teammates.... To be part of the team this year was special; for me, it's the first time I've been on a winning Tour de France team.

CN: Can you remember your thoughts during the final parade on the Champs Elysées this year?

JA: It was a very special moment; in my mind, the other years when I was on O.N.C.E., I finished the Tour but on the final day, when I would see Lance and the USPS team celebrating, I would think, 'I'd like to do that one day'... to enter into the Champs Elysées with the yellow jersey.

This year, when I woke up that Sunday morning, the last day of the Tour, I thought that before it was a dream and now it's for real. The last week was really hard and you can't think you have it won - every moment, there can be a crash or something can happen. But the last day, OK, we could enjoy it! It was a very special moment; for me, the best moment of my career."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2004/interviews/?id=jose_azevedo04

Chechu on Jose, July 15:

"Q: Jose Azevedo has taken Robertos place in the team this year. What difference does that make?
A: t will be better. Jose is really a team rider, he gives 100% for the team. Roberto was great but he also had his own ambitions, so I think Jose will make us stronger."

http://www.trekbikes.com/tour_de_france/news/daily_updates/daily_article.jsp?articleId=8684&category=tdfdailynews04

Johan on the team, 2004:

"Q: The entire team was extremly dominant this year. How do you explain that?

This team exists exclusively for the Tour – everything is subjected to our one goal. All of our riders are top notch professionals.Take Jose Azevedo – he could easily make the podium of the Tour. But he has decided to work for a strong leader instead. We aren't nine guys who are selected in June to ride the Tour in July. We start thinking about the Tour in December, we start building the team eight months ahead. I’m not interested in a selection of good riders who aren’t willing to give their best. My guys have to put their entire ambition into our common goal. If they don’t do that, we don’t need them on the team. Of course we’re also lucky to have a leader who has proven that it pays off to suffer for him.

Q: So it’s mostly psychological?

Of course not. We also have to work hard. Real hard. We suffer together in training and we suffer together in the race. We did all the climbs of the Tour together. One day we did seven climbs, we rode for eight hours and it was thirty degees up there. You don’t do that because it’s fun. I don’t think a lot of other teams work that hard. But those are the days that build a team. Lance talks to every rider, he knows how to motivate each one. To work for someone is to suffer for someone."

You need domestiques who, when they finish fifth after having assisted their leader to win the GC, they say it was the best moment of their career to see their leader in yellow. You do not need domestiques who fret when they have to chase down LA after he joined Simeoni towards the end of the Tour.

you do have a lot of time on your hands 😉 .

Well, I still don't think Zabel is a problem for T-mobile. The way USPS/DC do it is the way that they do it. Ullrich's still been able to finish second/win the tour with Zabel in the team. Of course, those second places would be firsts if Armstrong wasn't there.

Zabel is a class rider with so much experience - Look at the recent Tour of Flanders. He knew that if he (or his team) didn't keep attacking he was never going to shake off enough of the contendors. In the end he got it down to a group of six - in which two were T-Mobile.

As Zabel kept attacking Sean Kelly called it and that was exactly the way it worked. To be fair he didn't really have the legs in the end but you can't fault his tactics.

T-Mobile however - pretty easy to fault their tactics. Their problem is they lack focus as a team. USPS (now discovery) have always had a very clear strategy that the whole team understands, that's great if you have someone of Armstrong's callibre. Other teams might not have that but still know what they're about as a team and what their aims are. You get the impression with T-Mobile they can't decide. Zabel has always been their banker for stage victories and it's interesting that with such a poor start to the season they actually need him more than ever. It is hard however to think that they can accommodate three potential TDF contendors and Zabel in their TDF team.

james

[font=Comic Sans MS]Zabel past his prime ?????? Didn't he just finish in the top 6 last weekend ?????? He may not be the fsatest sprinter today , and maybe he has never been the fastest over-all , but he is still one of the best riders all year around .......
Leave him off the TDF team .??????????........ Would you want to be the ds of TM and have to go back to Germany and explain that to the fans ?????
Us American fans are obsessesed with the TDF....... And Lance has every right to concentrate on that . But professional cycling is more then that....... And hasn't Zabel been a rider that has competed all year , every year with the best????

[/font]

If European fans are not obsessed solely with the Tour, then leave Zabel off the Tour team and have him focus on the Giro/Vuelta for the green jersey-equivalent, and on the Classics and other non-Tour races. Nobody is saying that Zabel should not be on the Vuelta team for TM, for instance.

And, frankly, sixth or fourth doesn't say much about whether Zabel is past his prime. Obviously, Zabel is past his prime. That's an obvious point.

Saying Zabel shouldn't be on the Tour team is not saying Zabel is not (or was not) a very good sprinter. It just says that he is not helpful to JU's winning the GC at the Tour.

[font=Comic Sans MS]TM should leave Ullrich off the team and they should have signed a few more men to help Zabel win another green jersey...... I do not know what German fans think but I have an idea that they appreciate Erik's dedication to the sport and are growing tired of Jan's annual speech about winning the tour.... The German fans can be proud of one of the finest cyclists in the professional peloton ......
I don't believe Erik is past his prime but I do believe that other sprinters have increased their power......
Erik still has a big win in him yet ......... [/font]

Velonews discusses the Zabel question:

"But Klöden had wanted to make a point, a point that he made more explicit in October after re-signing with T-Mobile. "A team that wants to challenge Lance Armstrong," Klöden repeated on various occasions, "needs one captain and eight helpers." Not one captain, seven helpers and a sprinter. And to emphasize that T-Mobile was about the GC and not the green jersey, Klöden had sprinted for the bonus seconds in St. Flour instead of leaving the points to Zabel. Even though Klöden's outspokenness adds a new dimension to it, the debate about his status in the team is not new to Zabel. "I am the only one in the team who never subordinated his career to that of Jan Ullrich," he says. "I was always independent of Jan." And maybe this independence is what is most vexing to some of his teammates, especially for Klöden. When re-signing with T-Mobile, the Tour runner-up had to concede that Ullrich, still the most popular German cyclist, will remain the team's leader. Zabel, on the other hand, has the standing within the team to demand a spot on the Tour roster for his own sake. "It doesn't make sense for me to go to the Tour unless I can win a stage or compete for the green jersey," Zabel says. And as of now, Walter Godefroot, Mario Kummer and the prospective new team director, Olaf Ludwig, seem to be ignoring Klöden's complaints and have listed Zabel as one of the 14 candidates for the Tour. "Thank God we are not a democratic debating club, where everyone can give his opinion, but a professional organization with a hierarchy," said Zabel, in reference to Klöden's remarks. The fact that Lance Armstrong has announced he will race in the Tour 2005, for Zabel, is an argument for putting him on the team, not against it: "If Armstrong races, all teams should be prepared for the same outcome as in the past six years, no matter what they try to do," Zabel said in an interview with the German cycling magazine TOUR. If he is correct, the potential for stage victories and a green-jersey win by Zabel is as attractive or perhaps more so for T-Mobile than yet another overall second place - whether by Klöden or by Ullrich. Zabel, like many people in Germany, has become weary and skeptical of Ullrich's announcements, made annually since 1997, that he will repeat his victory in the Tour. Zabel has had to step in more than once when Ullrich found himself unable to keep his promise. He was always a guarantor for success at T-Mobile, insurance against the uncertainties of a fickle Ullrich. His role as the reliable backup for Ullrich gives him a degree of confidence as well as leverage within the team. "I'm the one with the least to lose in this situation," he says about the coming Tour. "If I don't go to the Tour there is much more pressure for the others to win. There won't be a scapegoat for them to blame it on, if it doesn't work out." Ullrich himself seems to understand this better than anyone - in 2004, it was Ullrich himself who supported Zabel's nomination for the Tour de France squad.... Zabel has accepted defeat and misfortune as part of athletic life. And he is prepared for it, if it comes in the power struggle within T-Mobile. "If the call comes that I'm not going to the Tour, it wouldn't be easy to handle. But I would manage," he says. After all, Zabel has accomplished everything he can at the Tour, winning the green jersey six times and taking 11 stages. Ullrich and Klöden are the ones who have something to prove in France."

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/7820.0.html

wolfix said:

[font=Comic Sans MS]
Erik still has a big win in him yet ......... [/font]

he sure does, Paris-Roubaix this sunday! (i'm hoping anyway 😄 ).

And I really dunno why Klöden stayed at T-Mobile. For him, I think it may have been more ideal to have gone to Gerolsteiner, where he'd have Totschnig/Leipheimer/Wegmann etc to support? (I'm looking at it from that point of view, as Klöden was runner-up last year).

Kloden would not have gotten Totschig (sp) and Leipheimer to support him. At best, he would have been their equal, as one of three.

And Kloden's words, while helpful to the overall goal of removing Zabel from the Tour team, could be viewed as hypocritical. Where was Kloden when JU most needed him, as one of those "eight helpers" to the single leader? Give me a break. 😕 Sadly, JU has the problem of Zabel and also the problem of undevoted domestiques.

Select Kloden quotes:

"Q: At night when you think about the 2005 Tour, do you dream about winning it? Klöden: Well, I don't want to talk about winning it. I dream that my preparations for the Tour can go as well as they did this year, and that I can put the training program, that I have devised with Thomas Schediwie, into action. Then everything is possible at the Tour. In the last few years I have had a lot of setbacks with back problems, knee problems and other health problems.... If Jan arrives at the Tour, like he did in 1997, then he is a bigger contender than Alex or I. But with the three of us at the top of our game, we can make life bloody hard for Lance. When Lance accelerates on the climbs, then one of us has always got to stay on his wheel."

"Q: You are only the third German, after Kurt Stöpel and Jan Ullrich, to finish runner-up in the Tour, but this performance seems to have been somewhat overlooked soon after the Tour... Klöden: Yeah, and that annoyed me. And also the fact that Jan's little quarrel with Walter ended up attracting more publicity than my second-place, or our win in the team classification. At the team get-together in Holland we sat down to discuss how to avoid this kind of publicity in future and resolved that from now on all issues should be cleared up internally first. Mistakes were also made by the team management. Anyway, the media sort of skewed the whole Tour de France story until it was just about Jan und Walter, and yet straight after the HEW-Cyclassics in Hamburg the whole thing had blown over. That did anger me. Back when Udo Bölts came in ninth in the Tour (1994 ed.), the press spent weeks focusing on it. Oh well, Jan has raised the bar in terms of public expectations."

http://www.t-mobile-team.com/cms/tmoteam/en/archive/news/templateId=renderInternalPage/yearID=2004/monthID=11/itemID=43392/id=13740.html

Tell me that is not a domestique with expectations of high placement himself.

Can anybody imagine Ace saying, "everything is possible at the Tour". Of course not!! Or Ace saying his fifth placee was never mentioned, and was not given sufficient emphasis? There is an argument Kloden is a sleeping time bomb for JU, someone ready to stab him in the back.

Clearly, any LA domestique would never have left LA's side, had he been lower in the mountains and needing their help. They would have killed themselves to help him, and he would have demanded nothing less. JU should, but does not, demand the same of his domestiques and that is part of why he does not get the type of support LA does.

As for Paris-Roubaix, that is not as well suited to Zabel's skills as, say, next year's Milan San Remo. Also, I think Zabel has some good chances at the Vuelta, even if he were not to make the Tour team. Unfortunately for JU, my personal views are that JU is going to be silly enough to ask for Zabel's inclusion, as Zabel indicated JU did in 2004.

however many quotes you may come up with, i remain a fan of Zabel and always will be 😄

It is one thing to profess, as you do, to be a fan of Zabel. It is another thing to say that Zabel should be on a TdF team whose leader is trying to win the GC overall.

Nobody is saying Zabel is not an accomplished cyslist. The question is whether he is a good fit for the TM TdF team that is competing against a completely dedicated, and tailored-for-LA DC team.

-- Somebody can lack fit with a team because the team already has somebody occupying their role. So, even though, taking an extreme case, Zabel would be nice to have on a team, Zabel has no role on Fassa Bort. because Ali-Jet is already there. Same if Cipo has joined TM instead of Liquigas.

-- Similarly, if there is no role on a team for a given event, then the person who occupies the role on the team should not attend that event. So, would the Classics specialists (leaving aside Hincapie and certain others) who aren't good climbers, nor good TTTists, argue they should have a role on a TdF team (except at TM)? They probably shouldn't be arguing that, for a team that is realistically trying to win the GC and that is smart.

I should indicate that Zabel is not the only problem on the TM Tour team. Look at the 8th and 9th picks, in terms of strength, on the team, and it's obvious they could be recruiting better.

Meanwhile, here is obviously what is happening at DC, for TdF:

Minus Floyd Landis (on podium in zero Grand Tours)
Minus maybe Pavel Padrnos or Benjamin Noval

Plus Popovych (better climber than Landis, on podium at Giro)
Plus maybe Salvodelli (better climber than Landis, won and on podium at Giro)

True, JU has Vino back, and that is at least mostly a good thing.

indeed, I'm hoping Vino's back and repeats his very good 2003 (although he'll be a domestique, which I only just remembered, my apologies).

Anyway, end of the day this is T-mobile we're talking about. The team who didn't pick Cadel Evans last year as he had 'no experience' 🙄 .

No -- they said they were saving Cadel from injury. 😄 They were doing it for Evans' own good,... really. 😄 And of course they added Sergei Ivanov as their replacement choice. 😕

This would never had happened at USPS/DC because, even if Bruyneel chose to forego someone like Evans (which he would never have chosen to forego, to begin with), LA would have spoken out about getting Evans on the team. So you see, at TM, it's as much a question of JU's acquiescence as Godefroot's stupidity and Zabel's position. :p The problems are multiple-fold, and one of the large problems is Godefroot/Olaf's lack of sufficient involvement in JU's training. When Bruyneel saw problems with LA's form at Paris-Nice, you bet he immediately talked to LA about it, and you bet that LA immediately recognized the problem.

JU has so many problems for the Tour:
-- Lack of great form at the ideal time
-- Lack of some completely dedicated domestiques
-- Zabel wasting one spot
-- Weight or rapid weight loss which then reduces power
-- Kloden's personal ambitions and readiness to stab him in the pack
-- Kummer, who is not 100% in communication with and on good terms with JU
-- Olaf, who is inexperienced
-- Godefroot, who this year may have mixed ambitions about fully assisting JU to win (since it would show that part of the problem in past years was his mismanagement of JU, which was actually part of the problem of course)
-- Lots of pressure, because this is the last year likely that JU could beat LA, since LA will likely no longer be riding the Tour
-- Lots of pressure, because of the lack of wins by his team in the Classics (in fact, no wins so far)
-- A stronger DC team than last year, populated by people who totally believe in the DC philosophy (incl. Popo) and who see LA as their undisputed team leader for htis event
-- An even more experienced DC team whose core has not changed and whose TTT capabilities can only have improved
-- Lack of clarity about how effective Sevilla and Lara will be, esp. given Sevilla's lack-lustre performance at Phonak
-- Not too many good marginal people to choose from, whereas the DC TdF Squad is very difficult to get onto. In fact, Barry, Joachim, Padrnos, Danielson will probalby not make. LA's unchosen domestiques -- each of those four could perform better than the last two chosen TM domestiques.

I give up. If I write anything else, I'll get an essay as a response :p .

Zabel is getting desperate, and is bringing the issue of his TdF inclusion on the TM team to the public's eye more. Cyclingnews reports:

"Erik Zabel (T-Mobile) is still unsure about his inclusion in the Tour de France roster of his team...The T-Mobile management will announce its final Tour de France selection on June 22. "There are valid reasons to include me in the team and valid reasons not to," the 34 year-old said. "One of these is that the team is focused on Jan Ullrich, who's appearing to be in a very good condition." Zabel, who has ridden the Tour de Suisse in the past to prepare for the three weeks in France in July, skipped the event this year to participate in the Vuelta Ciclista Asturias from June 17-21. Some German observers see this as an indication that he will not be nominated for the Tour de France roster. "It would be great if I was included," Zabel continued. "The Tour is a wonderful race and even more so, as it passes through Germany again this year." The man from Berlin, who will celebrate his 35th birthday one day before the stage to Karlsruhe, is surely hoping for a win if he participates. "But it will be very hard. There are so many fast guys like McEwen, Boonen, O'Grady and Cooke. What's more, they have all the support from their teams as they have nothing at stake on GC." Unlike T-Mobile..."

musette said:

Zabel is getting desperate, and is bringing the issue of his TdF inclusion on the TM team to the public's eye more. Cyclingnews reports:

"Erik Zabel (T-Mobile) is still unsure about his inclusion in the Tour de France roster of his team...The T-Mobile management will announce its final Tour de France selection on June 22. "There are valid reasons to include me in the team and valid reasons not to," the 34 year-old said. "One of these is that the team is focused on Jan Ullrich, who's appearing to be in a very good condition." Zabel, who has ridden the Tour de Suisse in the past to prepare for the three weeks in France in July, skipped the event this year to participate in the Vuelta Ciclista Asturias from June 17-21. Some German observers see this as an indication that he will not be nominated for the Tour de France roster. "It would be great if I was included," Zabel continued. "The Tour is a wonderful race and even more so, as it passes through Germany again this year." The man from Berlin, who will celebrate his 35th birthday one day before the stage to Karlsruhe, is surely hoping for a win if he participates. "But it will be very hard. There are so many fast guys like McEwen, Boonen, O'Grady and Cooke. What's more, they have all the support from their teams as they have nothing at stake on GC." Unlike T-Mobile..."

Maybe they should put Zabel in and Ullrich out. 🙄

It might save Ullrich from injury and allow the team to concentrate on some stage wins with Zabel. Its the sort of thinking that Godefoote is capable of.

mitosis said:

Maybe they should put Zabel in and Ullrich out. 🙄

It might save Ullrich from injury and allow the team to concentrate on some stage wins with Zabel. Its the sort of thinking that Godefoote is capable of.

The key word here is team and you don't have that at all with Zabel.