General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Questions: death, testicles, and sex determination

Started by Peter Webb · · Last activity · 8 posts · 525 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
13 March 2004
Last activity
17 March 2004
Original author
Peter Webb
Posts
8
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
525
Views / 30 days
2
Topics

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–8 of 8
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Dawkin's books had a profound effect on my world view; his
    arguments are completely convincing.

    However, there are a couple of questions that are not
    adequately addressed (for me) in his books and have worried
    me for a long time. I am hoping for some insight; my
    apologies if these are regular topics in this ng.

    In at least the first two cases (and possibly all three),
    they relate to characteristics which appear to be bad for
    the individual but good for the species. They also appear to
    have elaborate mechanisms which prevent individuals from
    mutating to the benefit of their offspring but detriment of
    the species. This doesn't line up very well with a narrow
    view of the selfish gene. Allow me to explain ....

    1. Why are men's testes on the outside, where they are prone
    to accidents, instead right in the middle of our bodies
    (like ovaries), where they are far safer?

    The standard biological arguemnt is that sperm production
    cannot occur at internal body temperature. While this is
    true, it doesn't sound like the underlying reason. Of all
    body processes, in all animals (many of which have different
    body temperature), why is it that the only one which needs
    to be a few degrees cooler is sperm production? With such a
    substantial evolutionary pressure on keeping the testes in
    working condition, why there is no biological mechanism
    which allows sperm production (like egg production) to occur
    at normal body temperature?

    My alternate premise is that our testes are on the outside
    to expose them more to radiation and hence increase the
    mutation rate. This is good for the species but bad for the
    individual. This would explain why they need to be kept
    cooler. Moving the testes inside the body would require two
    independent changes, changing their location and allowing
    them to function at body temperature. A mutation which
    caused the first but not the second would render the
    individual sterile. A mutation which caused the second but
    not the first would provide no evolutionary advantage.
    Accordingly, the requirement to keep the testes cool
    effectively prevents a change (moving the testes inside the
    body) which benefits the individual but disadvantages the
    species as a whole.

    2. Why do we die, indeed, why do we age at all?

    may as well die, so we can re-phrase the question to say
    "why does menopause occur in animals" if desired.

    Maybe there is just no way of building a biological machine
    which doesn't wear away. However, this answer doesn't really
    explain the wide range of life expectancies in different
    animals, and the fact some organisms (eg bacteria) don't die
    of old age as such.

    Death (or menopause) is clearly not in the interest of the
    individual, but is clearly in the interest of the species,
    as it frees up resources for subsequent (possibly fitter)
    generations. Maybe all the complicated things that happen
    when you age are actually adaptations actually "designed" to
    make you die and age. There are multiple mechanisms
    involved, to eliminate the chance of an individual having a
    benign mutation which makes them live far longer or not age
    at all, an adaptation to the massive benefit of the
    individual but huge disadvantage of the species. In this
    model, cancer and heart disease are actually positive
    adaptions which help make room for future, possibly fitter,
    descendents. Again, the irony is that these mutations are
    specifically not to the individual's benefit, or indeed the
    gene (or gene combination) that causes them. Its hard to see
    how a gene which causes the organism to die could be a
    "selfish" gene.

    3. How come I produce X and Y chromosome sperm in
    equal numbers?

    Assuming each couple produces 2 children, with a mix of X
    and Y sperm each couple will have equal numbers of male and
    female children at each generation - 1 boy 1 girl at
    generation 1, 2 boys 2 girls at generation 2, 4 boys 4 girls
    at generation 3, etc.

    An individual who produced only Y chromosome sperm would
    produce only boy children. Assuming this is an inheritable
    characteristic, so would his 2 male children. So instead of
    equal numbers of boys and girls at each generation, this
    mutation leads to an exponential increase in males - 2 at
    the first generation, 4 at the second, 8 at the third etc.

    Again, this mutation would be for the benefit of the gene
    that expresses it - as it spreads exponentially through the
    population - but to the detriment of the species. I accept
    that eventually an equilibrium would be reached where
    females have more reproductive choices, and so this gene
    confers no advantage. This would occur when there are twice
    as many males as females, because at this point the double
    probability of having a boy (ie absolute certainty) is
    offset by the halved chance of reproducing at all (shortage
    of females). But there is no sign of humans having a
    mutation which significantly increases the percentage of Y
    sperm that are produced, despite the fact that such a
    mutation would rapidly spread through the population.

    Could this be another example where there are mutations
    which are beneficial to the individual but detrimental to
    the species, and so there are multiple mechanisms to prevent
    individuals from having adaptations to their benefit?

    And if this is so, doesn't this move us in the opposite
    direction from Dawkins? He essentially took survival of the
    fittest (individual) and made it survival of the fittest
    (gene). These arguments are essentially survival of the
    fittest (species)? A gross simplification, but I am sure you
    get the idea.

    Thanks for reading this post. These things have bugged me
    for a long time. The ideas of Dawkins are as close to a
    religion as I have (as in "why are we here" and "where did
    we come from"😉; its a bit sad if your personal religion
    can't also answer the question of "why do we die" ....

    Peter Webb

  2. Peter Webb <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:

    In at least the first two cases (and possibly all three),
    they relate to characteristics which appear to be bad for
    the individual but good for the species. They also appear
    to have elaborate mechanisms which prevent individuals
    from mutating to the benefit of their offspring but
    detriment of the species. This doesn't line up very well
    with a narrow view of the selfish gene. Allow me to
    explain ....

    1. Why are men's testes on the outside, where they are
    prone to accidents, instead right in the middle of our
    bodies (like ovaries), where they are far safer?

    The standard biological arguemnt is that sperm production
    cannot occur at internal body temperature. While this is
    true, it doesn't sound like the underlying reason. Of all
    body processes, in all animals (many of which have
    different body temperature), why is it that the only one
    which needs to be a few degrees cooler is sperm
    production? With such a substantial evolutionary pressure
    on keeping the testes in working condition, why there is
    no biological mechanism which allows sperm production
    (like egg production) to occur at normal body temperature?

    My alternate premise is that our testes are on the outside
    to expose them more to radiation and hence increase the
    mutation rate. This is good for the species but bad for
    the individual. [...]

    The body can *easily* increase the rate of mutation -
    regardless of where in the body a tissue lies. Mutations
    can come from chemicals within cells just as easily as
    anywhere else.

    You are correct that colder temperatures are the
    conventional explanation.

    Possibly mechanical stimulation during intercourse has
    something to do with it. Possibly the testes are accessible
    since they benefit from mild mechanical stimulation - and
    this explains why you see men massaging and prodding them
    from time to time. I don't know if the full answer is known.

    Quoted message said:

    2. Why do we die, indeed, why do we age at all?

    Quoted message said:

    may as well die, so we can re-phrase the question to say
    "why does menopause occur in animals" if desired.

    Maybe there is just no way of building a biological
    machine which doesn't wear away. However, this answer
    doesn't really explain the wide range of life expectancies
    in different animals, and the fact some organisms (eg
    bacteria) don't die of old age as such.

    Death (or menopause) is clearly not in the interest of the
    individual, but is clearly in the interest of the species,
    as it frees up resources for subsequent (possibly fitter)
    generations. Maybe all the complicated things that happen
    when you age are actually adaptations actually "designed"
    to make you die and age. There are multiple mechanisms
    involved, to eliminate the chance of an individual having
    a benign mutation which makes them live far longer or not
    age at all, an adaptation to the massive benefit of the
    individual but huge disadvantage of the species. In this
    model, cancer and heart disease are actually positive
    adaptions which help make room for future, possibly
    fitter, descendents. Again, the irony is that these
    mutations are specifically not to the individual's
    benefit, or indeed the gene (or gene combination) that
    causes them. Its hard to see how a gene which causes the
    organism to die could be a "selfish" gene.

    The conventional theories of aging look a lot like this:

    * Disposable soma

    This states that reproductive and maintenance processes
    compete for resources. Reproducing early clearly has many
    advantages - and is consequently somatic tissue
    maintenance programs do not receive sufficient investment
    to support indefinite survival.

    * Antagonistic pleiotropy

    This theory proposes that genes that delay the expression
    of deleterious genes are favoured. More generally, it
    suggests that alleles may be favoured if they have
    beneficial early effects but deleterious later effects.

    These are both short-term "selfish" theories - and
    complement each other.

    Search on their titles for more information about them.

    Invoking species-level benefit is a /possible/ form of
    explanation - but I would not describe it as conventional.

    The best high-level selection arguments for aging I have
    encountered both involve parasites:

    ``Older individuals tend to have more parasites - and at
    some stage they become a hazzard to other members of the
    species - as walking reservoirs of infectious agents. It
    would benefit the species to have such individuals die -
    taking their load of parasites out of circulation.

    rapidly evolving parasites. To work, this mechanism needs
    a constant influx of new individuals - and thus the
    removal of elderly ones.''

    These mechanisms could (in principle) both work to some
    extent in viscous populations using group selection. The
    extent to which they explain anything remains to be seen.

    Quoted message said:

    3. How come I produce X and Y chromosome sperm in equal
    numbers?

    Assuming each couple produces 2 children, with a mix of X
    and Y sperm each couple will have equal numbers of male
    and female children at each generation - 1 boy 1 girl at
    generation 1, 2 boys 2 girls at generation 2, 4 boys 4
    girls at generation 3, etc.

    An individual who produced only Y chromosome sperm would
    produce only boy children. Assuming this is an
    inheritable characteristic, so would his 2 male children.
    So instead of equal numbers of boys and girls at each
    generation, this mutation leads to an exponential
    increase in males - 2 at the first generation, 4 at the
    second, 8 at the third etc.

    Again, this mutation would be for the benefit of the gene
    that expresses it - as it spreads exponentially through
    the population - but to the detriment of the species. I
    accept that eventually an equilibrium would be reached
    where females have more reproductive choices, and so this
    gene confers no advantage. This would occur when there are
    twice as many males as females, because at this point the
    double probability of having a boy (ie absolute certainty)
    is offset by the halved chance of reproducing at all
    (shortage of females). But there is no sign of humans
    having a mutation which significantly increases the
    percentage of Y sperm that are produced, despite the fact
    that such a mutation would rapidly spread through the
    population.

    Most genes on the Y chromosome have their expression
    suppressed by the rest of the nuclear DNA - precisely to
    prevent this sort of thing happening.

    Look at the theory of "segregation distorters" and
    "driving genes",
    e.g. in the "Outlaws and Modifiers" section of "The Extended
    Phenotype".

    Quoted message said:

    Could this be another example where there are mutations
    which are beneficial to the individual [...]

    In this case Y-chromosome genes for making more than their
    fair share of sons would disadvantage *all the rest of the
    nuclear DNA* of their

    towards males.

    Quoted message said:

    And if this is so, doesn't this move us in the opposite
    direction from Dawkins? He essentially took survival of
    the fittest (individual) and made it survival of the
    fittest (gene). These arguments are essentially survival
    of the fittest (species)? A gross simplification, but I am
    sure you get the idea.

    Survival of the fittest species may well happen (rather
    contra-Dawkins).

    However your examples are all likely to be highly amenable
    to gene level selection explanations.
    --
    __________
    |im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.org [email hidden] Remove
    lock to reply.

  3. Thankyou for your reply, particularly as you clearly know what you are
    talking about.
    At the risk of pushing my luck, I have snipped out my original bits (except
    to provide context) and added a couple of questions/comments:

    "> > 1. Why are men's testes on the outside, where they are
    prone to accidents,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    instead right in the middle of our bodies (like
    ovaries), where they are


    far

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    safer?

    The body can *easily* increase the rate of mutation -
    regardless of where in the body a tissue lies. Mutations
    can come from chemicals within cells just as easily as
    anywhere else.

    Damn!

    Quoted message said:

    You are correct that colder temperatures are the
    conventional explanation.

    Possibly mechanical stimulation during intercourse has
    something to do with it. Possibly the testes are
    accessible since they benefit from mild mechanical
    stimulation - and this explains why you see men massaging
    and prodding them from time to time. I don't know if the
    full answer is known.

    Still unconvinced. My wide doesn't seem to miss playing with
    her ovaries. The only reason we have bodies at all is to
    provide an environment for testes and ovaries to do their
    thing - there has to be some underlying reason for the most
    valuable part of the male body (in an evolutionary sense)
    occupying the most exposed real estate ...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    2. Why do we die, indeed, why do we age at all?


    The conventional theories of aging look a lot like this:

    * Disposable soma

    This states that reproductive and maintenance processes
    compete for resources. Reproducing early clearly has
    many advantages - and is consequently somatic tissue
    maintenance programs do not receive sufficient
    investment to support indefinite survival.

    Interesting, but in animals which don't nurture their
    young, maintenance programs have no point unless they can
    sustain reproductive processes. I still see no advantage to
    the individual in menopause or death, but a considerable
    advantage to the species. Do you believe that death occurs
    because biological machines with indefinite lifetimes
    cannot in principle be built, or because of some
    evolutionary advantage to death? If the latter, is this an
    advantage to the species or the individual? These are not
    rhetoric questions; I am genuinely trying to reconcile
    death with Dawkins.

    Quoted message said:


    * Antagonistic pleiotropy

    This theory proposes that genes that delay the
    expression of deleterious genes are favoured. More
    generally, it suggests that alleles may be favoured if
    they have beneficial early effects but deleterious
    later effects.

    I understand that that genes are favoured if they have short
    term beneficial results, and there is less pressure to
    select against long term deleterious effects. But this is a
    circular argument. If we lived for 1,000 years (and were
    fertile for the whole period) there would be considerable
    pressure to select against genes that (for example) caused
    cancer in your 50s and 60s.

    Quoted message said:

    These are both short-term "selfish" theories - and
    complement each other.

    Quoted message said:


    Search on their titles for more information about them.

    Invoking species-level benefit is a /possible/ form of
    explanation - but I would not describe it as conventional.

    The best high-level selection arguments for aging I have
    encountered both involve parasites:

    ``Older individuals tend to have more parasites - and at
    some stage they become a hazzard to other members of the
    species - as walking reservoirs of infectious agents. It
    would benefit the species to have such individuals die -
    taking their load of parasites out of circulation.

    This argument is clearly a "species selection" argument. You
    identify that the death of a diseased individual benefits
    the species; its hard to see how in general it benefits the
    individual.

    Perhaps in social annimals the death of an individual could
    produce kin benefits. I am not aware that the life
    expectancy of social animals (or those that live in close
    proximity to their kin) is less than those of solitary
    animals. Indeed, this argument falls down completely unless
    their is a risk of passing parasites to kin that would
    otherwise survive.

    Quoted message said:

    rapidly evolving parasites. To work, this mechanism
    needs a constant influx of new individuals - and thus
    the removal of elderly ones.''

    These mechanisms could (in principle) both work to some
    extent in viscous populations using group selection. The
    extent to which they explain anything remains to be seen.

    Yes, but again they are species (or group) selection; they
    do not confer an advantage to an individual.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    3. How come I produce X and Y chromosome sperm in equal
    numbers?

    Assuming each couple produces 2 children, with a mix of
    X and Y sperm


    each

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    couple will have equal numbers of male and female
    children at each generation - 1 boy 1 girl at generation
    1, 2 boys 2 girls at generation


    2, 4

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    boys 4 girls at generation 3, etc.

    An individual who produced only Y chromosome sperm would
    produce only


    boy

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    children. Assuming this is an inheritable
    characteristic, so would his 2 male children. So
    instead of equal numbers of boys and girls at each
    generation, this mutation leads to an exponential
    increase in males - 2


    at

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the first generation, 4 at the second, 8 at the
    third etc.

    Again, this mutation would be for the benefit of the
    gene that expresses it - as it spreads exponentially
    through the population - but to the detriment of the
    species. I accept that eventually an equilibrium would


    be

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    reached where females have more reproductive choices,
    and so this gene confers no advantage. This would occur
    when there are twice as many


    males as

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    females, because at this point the double probability of
    having a boy


    (ie

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    absolute certainty) is offset by the halved chance of
    reproducing at all (shortage of females). But there is
    no sign of humans having a mutation which significantly
    increases the percentage of Y sperm that are


    produced,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    despite the fact that such a mutation would rapidly
    spread through the population.

    Most genes on the Y chromosome have their expression
    suppressed by the rest of the nuclear DNA - precisely to
    prevent this sort of thing happening.

    Look at the theory of "segregation distorters" and
    "driving genes",
    e.g. in the "Outlaws and Modifiers" section of "The
    Extended Phenotype".

    Quoted message said:

    Could this be another example where there are mutations
    which are


    beneficial

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to the individual [...]

    In this case Y-chromosome genes for making more than their
    fair share of sons would disadvantage *all the rest of the
    nuclear DNA* of their

    Quoted message said:

    towards males.

    Yes, but I don't dispute this. I am providing an example of
    a gene which could selfishly benefit itself to the
    detriment of the species, and observing that this gene
    doesn't appear to occur.

    that it wouldn't be a good thing are rather moot (and not
    disputed).

    You provide a practical reason for this not occuring - the Y
    chromosome genes are suppressed by other genes on other
    chromosomes. However, I could provide other similar
    examples. The egg could have mutation which prevented
    fertilisation by Y sperm (or spontaneously aborted male
    foetuses), this would similarly cause an exponential growth
    in females. My point is that there are sufficiently
    elaborate mechanisms in place to stop any of these ever
    happening, and that these must somehow have evolved.
    However, these

    offspring, even if they are to the obvious advantage of
    the species.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    And if this is so, doesn't this move us in the opposite
    direction from Dawkins? He essentially took survival of
    the fittest (individual) and


    made

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it survival of the fittest (gene). These arguments are
    essentially


    survival

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of the fittest (species)? A gross simplification, but I
    am sure you get


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    idea.

    Survival of the fittest species may well happen (rather
    contra-Dawkins).

    I really don't want that to be the case. I am not a crank
    who believes he has the evidence to destroy evolution. The
    Dawkins model has simplicity and beauty; I would far prefer
    simple explanantions rather than introducing species level
    selection which would clearly be something of a kludge.

    Quoted message said:


    However your examples are all likely to be highly amenable
    to gene level selection explanations.
    --

    Again, thankyou for the time you have taken for a
    thougtful reply.

    Peter Webb

  4. Tim Tyler <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:

    You are correct that colder temperatures are the
    conventional explanation.

    2002/DC51ECC3-54BD-4B30-98CD-
    C73C0FC11113/0/ln1bhms_4629_physofmale.pdf ...goes into the
    science behind this in some depth.

    It *does* appear that temperature is critically important to
    mammal sperm
    - and that many features of the male mammal's reproductive
    system are likely to be best seen as thermoregulatory
    adaptations.
    --
    __________
    |im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.org [email hidden] Remove
    lock to reply.

  5. Peter Webb <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    2. Why do we die, indeed, why do we age at all?


    The conventional theories of aging look a lot like this:

    * Disposable soma

    This states that reproductive and maintenance
    processes compete for resources. Reproducing early
    clearly has many advantages - and is consequently
    somatic tissue maintenance programs do not receive
    sufficient investment to support indefinite survival.

    Interesting, but in animals which don't nurture their
    young, maintenance programs have no point unless they can
    sustain reproductive processes.

    I don't see why that's a "but".

    Even if animals did not have to do some maintenance to last
    at least long enough to reproduce, zero investment in
    maintenance would be quite compatible with the idea above -
    that investment in reproduction gets favoured over
    maintenance programs.

    Quoted message said:

    I still see no advantage to the individual in menopause or
    death, but a considerable advantage to the species.

    Read more about the disposable soma theory, then. It clearly
    offers individual level advantage.

    The basic idea is that expenditure on maintenace programs
    (that would produce longevity) is expensive - and that
    organisms tend to put their energetic and nutritional
    resources into reproduction instead - leading to the natural
    accumulation of errors and problems culminating in
    malfunction and death.

    You could construct organisms that aged more slowly - but
    after a point they would not be competitive with senescing
    ones - since the latter would be better able to take
    advantage of strategies involving reproduction - and such
    strategies are very powerful.

    Quoted message said:

    Do you believe that death occurs because biological
    machines with indefinite lifetimes cannot in principle be
    built, or because of some evolutionary advantage to death?

    Some organisms exhibit "negligible senescence" - so it is
    not a matter of engineering difficulty.

    Death is, among other things:

    * the result of selection favouring genes that are
    advantageous early in life - but have deleterious later
    consequences;

    * The result of a lack of investment in repair and
    maintenance programs caused by a preferential
    investment of the same resources in reproductive
    programs at young ages;

    * a side effect of slow clearance of deleterious mutations
    from the population;

    The *main* reason there's a benefit to senescence is because
    defending against damage and decay takes resources - and
    those can be more profitably devoted to other things.

    Quoted message said:

    If the latter, is this an advantage to the species or the
    individual?

    Not spending resources on maintenance programs unnecessarily
    has substantial individual-level advantages.

    Death may well also have species-level advantages - but the
    significance of these relative to the individual-level
    benefits has yet to be clearly established.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    * Antagonistic pleiotropy

    This theory proposes that genes that delay the
    expression of deleterious genes are favoured. More
    generally, it suggests that alleles may be favoured
    if they have beneficial early effects but deleterious
    later effects.

    I understand that that genes are favoured if they have
    short term beneficial results, and there is less pressure
    to select against long term deleterious effects. But this
    is a circular argument. If we lived for 1,000 years (and
    were fertile for the whole period) there would be
    considerable pressure to select against genes that (for
    example) caused cancer in your 50s and 60s.

    Antagonistic pleiotropy is not a circular theory of
    senescence. Perhaps read more about it if you want to
    understand it better.

    There really is a selection pressure that delays the
    expression of deleterious genes.

    If a gene can cause another deleterious mutation to kill you
    at 50 rather than 30, then it will be favoured. Iterate this
    process and you wind up with many deleterious genes that
    have not been removed from the population
    - but have had their expression pushed forward in time to a
    point in the organism's development after most will have
    reproduced.

    The pressure to remove the deleterious genes is by then much
    reduced. They can hang around in the population for long
    periods of time in a "nearly neutral" state - and may even
    reach fixation.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Search on their titles for more information about them.

    Invoking species-level benefit is a /possible/ form of
    explanation - but I would not describe it as
    conventional.

    The best high-level selection arguments for aging I have
    encountered both involve parasites:

    ``Older individuals tend to have more parasites - and at
    some stage they become a hazzard to other members of the
    species - as walking reservoirs of infectious agents. It
    would benefit the species to have such individuals die -
    taking their load of parasites out of circulation.

    This argument is clearly a "species selection"
    argument. [...]

    Yes - I presented it as such - "the best high-level
    selection arguments for aging I have encountered"...

    Quoted message said:

    death of a diseased individual benefits the species; its
    hard to see how in general it benefits the individual.

    Only if you ignore the "disposable soma" theory. The
    organism gets a direct, selfish benefit for using those
    resources - which would be needed to prevent aging and
    susceptability to disease using maintenance programs and a
    more powerful immune system - for early reproduction.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    rapidly evolving parasites. To work, this mechanism
    needs a constant influx of new individuals - and thus
    the removal of elderly ones.''

    These mechanisms could (in principle) both work to
    some extent in viscous populations using group
    selection. The extent to which they explain anything
    remains to be seen.

    Yes, but again they are species (or group) selection; they
    do not confer an advantage to an individual.

    Yes - I did present them as such, though.

    ["Driving" Y-chromosome genes]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Most genes on the Y chromosome have their expression
    suppressed by the rest of the nuclear DNA - precisely to
    prevent this sort of thing happening.

    Look at the theory of "segregation distorters" and
    "driving genes",
    e.g. in the "Outlaws and Modifiers" section of "The
    Extended Phenotype".

    [...]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In this case Y-chromosome genes for making more than
    their fair share of sons would disadvantage *all the
    rest of the nuclear DNA* of their

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    towards males.

    Yes, but I don't dispute this. I am providing an example
    of a gene which could selfishly benefit itself to the
    detriment of the species, and observing that this gene
    doesn't appear to occur.

    "Segregation distorters" - along the lines you describe -
    certainly do occur - though they don't often get the upper
    hand for very long.

    when they start to do that, the strength of the selection
    against them increases.

    Quoted message said:

    You provide a practical reason for this not occuring - the
    Y chromosome genes are suppressed by other genes on other
    chromosomes. However, I could provide other similar
    examples. The egg could have mutation which prevented
    fertilisation by Y sperm (or spontaneously aborted male
    foetuses), this would similarly cause an exponential
    growth in females. My point is that there are sufficiently
    elaborate mechanisms in place to stop any of these ever
    happening, and that these must somehow have evolved.
    However, these

    Quoted message said:

    offspring, even if they are to the obvious advantage of
    the species.

    Keeping the distorting genes down also tends to benefit the
    individuals, though.

    Typically, all the genes on other chromosomes suffer when a
    segregation distorter arises. Usually they work by killing
    (or damaging) half the gametes that bear the "wrong"
    chromosome. Reducing the number of your gamates by a factor
    of two is not good for most of the individual's genes - and
    they protest.

    That's how the "SD" gene in the fruit fly works - for
    example:

    ``A segregation distorter gene in a fruit fly can kill all
    sperm containing the other copy of the chromosome, so that
    all sperm produced that survives contains the segregation
    distorter gene.''

    Other ways around a fair meiosis tend to be equally
    destructive.

    Also, I had best not try too hard to explain the absensce of
    such genes. They do exist - and have significant effects in
    some populations.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Survival of the fittest species may well happen (rather
    contra-Dawkins).

    I really don't want that to be the case. I am not a crank
    who believes he has the evidence to destroy evolution. The
    Dawkins model has simplicity and beauty; I would far
    prefer simple explanantions rather than introducing
    species level selection which would clearly be something
    of a kludge.

    I see nothing wrong with species level selection - except
    perhaps for the lack of clear evidence that it has much
    effect or explains very much.

    It /does/ make things more complicated - but I don't see a
    way around that.

    You can't dismiss something because it isn't easy to
    understand - or else Occam's razor would have dismissed
    quantum physics long ago ;-)
    --
    __________
    |im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.org [email hidden] Remove
    lock to reply.

  6. Tim Tyler <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    [colder temperatures are the conventional explanation]

    Quoted message said:

    2002/DC51ECC3-54BD-4B30-98CD-
    C73C0FC11113/0/ln1bhms_4629_physofmale.pdf ...goes into
    the science behind this in some depth.

    My long URL has been mangled - an old s.b.e. problem - IIRC.

    google.comsearch

    ...should lead to the document in question.
    --
    __________
    |im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.org [email hidden] Remove
    lock to reply.

  7. "Peter Webb" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Still unconvinced. My wide doesn't seem to miss playing
    with her ovaries. The only reason we have bodies at all
    is to provide an environment for testes and ovaries to do
    their thing - there has to be some underlying reason for
    the most valuable part of the male body (in an
    evolutionary sense) occupying the most exposed real
    estate ...

    1. It isn't the most valuable. Devore noted that baboons
    care most about

    part of the male body - yet it is also the most exposed. The
    testicles are in fact located in a position that is
    generally well protected in quadrupeds.

    2. Tim has cited a website discussing thermal concerns,
    which is probably the best general explanation. Ovaries
    might benefit by being external in terms of potential
    mutation rate, but too many of their other functions
    require them to be internal. Reptiles - which are cold
    blooded - do not have external testicles. The question
    then is why birds - which are warm blooded - also do not.
    The answer may be because they need to be streamlined.
    Many birds lower their body temperature at night, and I
    have seen the suggestion that they produce sperm at night
    - I haven't seen any studies on this. Bats - which also
    need to be streamlined - keep their testicles inside
    except during breeding season. AFAIK dolphins and whales
    have internal testicles. Seals do also, but apparently
    sea lions do not. There is also an element of chance -
    the "frozen accident" - involved.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    2. Why do we die, indeed, why do we age at all?

    Quoted message said:

    Interesting, but in animals which don't nurture their
    young, maintenance programs have no point unless they can
    sustain reproductive processes. I still see no advantage
    to the individual in menopause or death, but a
    considerable advantage to the species. Do you believe that
    death occurs because biological machines with indefinite
    lifetimes cannot in principle be built, or because of some
    evolutionary advantage to death? If the latter, is this an
    advantage to the species or the individual? These are not
    rhetoric questions; I am genuinely trying to reconcile
    death with Dawkins.

    Again Tim has given a more detailed response, and you
    would do well to follow up his leads. I can add the
    following, if it helps:

    Menopause is different from senescence - it occurs a
    considerable time before senescence, among females, and only
    in a few social species. The general explanation is that at
    a certain age a female will improve her overall reproductive
    success more by helping grandchildren, especially by making
    accumulated knowledge available, than by risking death in
    having more children.

    Most of the theories about senescence do not ultimately rely
    on benefit to the species, nor on the inability to create
    long lifetimes, but only on simple statistics. An animal has
    a certain chance each year of dying (due to disease,
    predation, starvation, sever storm, or accident). The chance
    varies depending on the animal's niche, but after enough
    years the odds of an individual surviving become close to
    nil ( a quick check on my calculator indicates that a 5%
    chance of dying per year translates to only a 2.75% chance
    of surviving to age 70). So genes which prolong the age past
    that "nil" point have no possible selective advantage - the
    individuals which carry them will no longer be alive to have
    children. Meanwhile all the other mechanisms which Tim
    outlined continue to act. We tend to think that we die
    because we age.That is only true of humans in very recent
    (from an evolutionary standpoint) history In fact we age
    because we die.

    Yours,

    Bill Morse

  8. Thankyou very much, both Tim and William.

    You have managed to move me from a position of "this doesn't
    reconcile with Dawkins" to "this is compatible with Dawkins,
    but its messy". I can live with that.

    <SNIP>

    Quoted message said:

    AFAIK dolphins and whales have internal testicles. Seals do
    also, but apparently sea lions do not. There is also an
    element of chance - the "frozen accident" - involved.


    <end SNIP>

    Even if I wasn't convinced, after that line I just can't
    continue ...

    Thanks again,

    Peter Webb

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.