Questions about Strength Training

Martha Gallagher said:

My first question is how much muscle I can hope to add.

IMHO gains happen in three stages:

First, you learn to "turn on" more nerve fibers at once. This CNS
(central nervous system) response improvement happens pretty quickly,
and makes it look like you're getting stronger really quickly, but
you're not really gaining much muscle mass yet.

Second, you learn to use more of the available muscle fibers
simultaneously. Normally, you use some fraction of them, and as those
get tired you switch to others, etc. It's a good balance between
strength and endurance, but again, as you learn to use more at once it
will seem like you're getting stronger but you're still not gaining
much mass.

Third, you grow new fibers. This is the slowest rate of strength
gain, but you are really gaining muscle mass here.

Quoted message said:

My second question is - can I really skip the cardio while I'm
working on building mass?

You should still do some cardio, mostly to warm up so you don't hurt
yourself, and as a cool-down afterwards to help get the lactic acid
and stuff out of the muscles. Me, when I was doing that I did about 7
minutes before (just until I could feel the perspiration) and 15-20
minutes after (slow-medium pace).

You can skip the pre-cardio if you do warm-up lifting sets; your
trainer can show you how.

Quoted message said:

Thirdly, I've been eating at maintenance for some time, how do I
know whether or not I need to add calories?

If you're gaining strength, don't add calories. Ask your trainer
about this, but in general, when you stop gaining strength is when you
want to add calories, and only 100-200 cals/day at first. Two
important things: (1) make sure you're getting enough protein. Muscle
is made of protein, and (2) you build muscle *slowly* so you don't
need a lot of extra calories, but you do need some, and they need to
be the right calories (protein and carbs build muscle) and at the
right time (before and after your workouts).

Martha Gallagher wrote:
:: My first question is how much muscle I can hope to add.

Very difficult question to answer really...

We're
:: starting w/ 2 weeks at as full intensity as I can do, but of course
:: I have aspirations to keep this up longer term. I'm a 42 yo female,
:: 5'6", 145. I'm good with the cardio, but frankly I'm not nearly as
:: strong as I should be - even my quads aren't as strong as I thought.
:: Looking on the bright side, that means I should be able to make some
:: early gains comparatively easily, right?

Yes....as long as you don't overdo things and you get plenty of rest...
Keep in mind that it is possible to train for strength and not
size...getting stronger doesn't mean getting bigger.

Do you really wish to bulk up? I'm finding that hard to believe....

::
:: My second question is - can I really skip the cardio while I'm
:: working on building mass?

You probably can do 3 per week sessions of 35 mins to maintain. You can
compensate by eating more to offset the calorie burn, if need be. You can
also incorporate some HIIT into your program. That'll help burn more of the
fat off (referring to the 10 lbs you mention below).

The workouts have gotten my heart pumping
:: by themselves so it's not like I have to worry that I'm setting
:: myself up for a serious cardiac event by skipping cardio for a
:: while, but I don't know, it just seems weird to not have to hit the
:: elliptical most nights.

Plenty of people don't do any cardio and don't have cardiac events, either.

::
:: Thirdly, I've been eating at maintenance for some time (eventually
:: there are maybe 10 lbs I wouldn't mind getting off, but it isn't a
:: high priority and at the moment I'm more interested in building up
:: my strength), how do I know whether or not I need to add calories? I
:: don't mind putting on a *little* fat during this period - I assume
:: I'll alternate between muscle building and fat losing periods until
:: I've got the muscle/fat ratio I want- but I also don't want to make
:: the mistake of thinking that the workouts give me unlimited eating
:: privileges.

I'd suggest you continue to eat at maintenance and forget this
bulking/cutting stuff for now. Go for general fitness and strength. Right
now it's more important to learn about working out and to establish a
consistent pattern of doing so. After you have truly made it a part of your
life, you can think about tragetting muscle mass. The newbie gains you get
during the first 6 months may be all you really need or want.

On gaining muscle---It ALL depends on whethr your body type is
mesomorph, endomorph or ectomorph.
If you're lucky, you're a meso. They gain muscle mass very quickly. If
you're an ecto....you wont do as well.

Mesomorphs are the broad-shouldered, narower-hipped, muscular but not
fat legs types. Even fat mesos (like me) still have strong, relatively
lean legs)

Ectos are the "soft" people---narower shoulders, wide hips, heavy legs.
I doubt you or anyone else in here is an Endo---the natursally slender
but storng, sinewey types.

Mesos make great body builders (yes, Arnold is a classic example) Endos
make great runners, swimmers, bikers. Ecto's....well, they arent
generally athletes. Well, maybe bowling.

The good news is, most people are a combo of two types....so, even if
you're partly ecto, myabe you've got enough meso to swing the balance.
If not...Im sorry to say....dont expect much muscle mass and be prepared
to work your ass off for what you do get.

Also be prepared to LOSE what you do get VERY quickly IF you stop weight
training.

regarding cardio---YES you definitely do still need it. Cardio burns
calories.
If you are an ecto, you will especialy need LOTS of cardio. The sad
truth is, an ecto must work twice as hard to accomplish half as much as
a meso. Sucks, but that's the way it is. however, even an ecto can
still burn plenty of fat by doing aerobic ex.

LassChance
(aka WIR)

Start LC~5-16-05
202-199-165
(i only weigh on Sunday)

Hey Roger,

Roger Zoul said:

Martha Gallagher wrote:

Quoted message said:

We're
:: starting w/ 2 weeks at as full intensity as I can do, but of course
:: I have aspirations to keep this up longer term. I'm a 42 yo female,
:: 5'6", 145. I'm good with the cardio, but frankly I'm not nearly as
:: strong as I should be - even my quads aren't as strong as I thought.
:: Looking on the bright side, that means I should be able to make some
:: early gains comparatively easily, right?

Yes....as long as you don't overdo things and you get plenty of rest...
Keep in mind that it is possible to train for strength and not
size...getting stronger doesn't mean getting bigger.

Do you really wish to bulk up? I'm finding that hard to believe....

I'm a 42 yo woman with a normal hormonal balance, no intention of taking
steroids or other growth inducing substances (other than protein <g>😉 and
no personal or family history of unusual muscle growth. For practical
purposes, there's no chance that I will bulk up.

But, I would like to be as strong as I can be. One, just by existing,
muscle burns calories. I wouldn't mind kicking the metabolism up a notch
or two. Two, strong is good. Despite the fact that I get more
regular exercise than most people I know, I can't carry my 2 yo nephew
around for more than a few minutes without my arms getting really tired
(in fairness to me I think the kid has lead-plated bones - he's not fat,
but man is he heavy). Three, I've got a few years, but I'm heading towards
menopause. I think the quality of my life will be greatly improved the
more muscle and bone I carry over into it. It's a lot easier to build a
solid foundation now than it will be later.

I'm not going to turn into Ms Olympia - Sr Division, but I certainly
wouldn't mind being able to find my biceps. I don't care or expect to get
ripped abs, but I would like the strength to be able to do crunches.

Quoted message said:

::
:: My second question is - can I really skip the cardio while I'm
:: working on building mass?

You probably can do 3 per week sessions of 35 mins to maintain. You can
compensate by eating more to offset the calorie burn, if need be. You can
also incorporate some HIIT into your program. That'll help burn more of the
fat off (referring to the 10 lbs you mention below).

Thanks, that's a good idea. I'm going to be starting swim season soon, so
I can do that for my cardio.

Quoted message said:

The workouts have gotten my heart pumping
:: by themselves so it's not like I have to worry that I'm setting
:: myself up for a serious cardiac event by skipping cardio for a
:: while, but I don't know, it just seems weird to not have to hit the
:: elliptical most nights.

Plenty of people don't do any cardio and don't have cardiac events, either.

Yes, that was a joke.

Quoted message said:

::
:: Thirdly, I've been eating at maintenance for some time (eventually
:: there are maybe 10 lbs I wouldn't mind getting off, but it isn't a
:: high priority and at the moment I'm more interested in building up
:: my strength), how do I know whether or not I need to add calories? I
:: don't mind putting on a *little* fat during this period - I assume
:: I'll alternate between muscle building and fat losing periods until
:: I've got the muscle/fat ratio I want- but I also don't want to make
:: the mistake of thinking that the workouts give me unlimited eating
:: privileges.

I'd suggest you continue to eat at maintenance and forget this
bulking/cutting stuff for now. Go for general fitness and strength. Right
now it's more important to learn about working out and to establish a
consistent pattern of doing so. After you have truly made it a part of your
life, you can think about tragetting muscle mass. The newbie gains you get
during the first 6 months may be all you really need or want.

Well, I do have a background and a basis wrt the fitness part at least. My
exercise program coming into this has been around 1 hour on the
elliptical, 5 days/week, averaging 6mph or higher. FWIW, my trainer said
my cardio fitness was quite, quite good.

I'm not looking at it in terms of bulking/cutting in the bodybuilding
sense, but simply - I have a goal of building as much muscle as I can from
my workouts (for the reasons I gave above), how can I do that while
limiting my fat gain. If it's not possible to optimize both, then I'd like
to concentrate on building muscle for some period.

I dunno, does that really seem so strange?

Martha

--
Sig pending

DJ Delorie said:

Martha Gallagher said:

My first question is how much muscle I can hope to add.

IMHO gains happen in three stages:

First, you learn to "turn on" more nerve fibers at once. This CNS
(central nervous system) response improvement happens pretty quickly,
and makes it look like you're getting stronger really quickly, but
you're not really gaining much muscle mass yet.

So, this is the "you get better because you learned to do it better
stage".

Quoted message said:

Second, you learn to use more of the available muscle fibers
simultaneously. Normally, you use some fraction of them, and as those
get tired you switch to others, etc. It's a good balance between
strength and endurance, but again, as you learn to use more at once it
will seem like you're getting stronger but you're still not gaining
much mass.

Certainly no complaints about that - as I explained to Roger in my other
post, I really do want to build muscle, but at the end of the day being
stronger is a certainly a good thing in itself.

Quoted message said:

Third, you grow new fibers. This is the slowest rate of strength
gain, but you are really gaining muscle mass here.

Quoted message said:

My second question is - can I really skip the cardio while I'm
working on building mass?

You should still do some cardio, mostly to warm up so you don't hurt
yourself, and as a cool-down afterwards to help get the lactic acid
and stuff out of the muscles. Me, when I was doing that I did about 7
minutes before (just until I could feel the perspiration) and 15-20
minutes after (slow-medium pace).

Oh, well then I'm there, my trainer gave me a rule that I have to be
sweating before we start ('course, since it's *me*, I glow). That
translates to around 10 minutes pumping on the elliptical. She
incorporated the stretching in the cool down - moving from stretch to
stretch keeps me moving, but it does get everything starting to slow down.

Quoted message said:

You can skip the pre-cardio if you do warm-up lifting sets; your
trainer can show you how.

Quoted message said:

Thirdly, I've been eating at maintenance for some time, how do I
know whether or not I need to add calories?

If you're gaining strength, don't add calories. Ask your trainer
about this, but in general, when you stop gaining strength is when you
want to add calories, and only 100-200 cals/day at first. Two

Good to know. So I probably won't need to worry about that for a while -
given 1 & 2 above.

Quoted message said:

important things: (1) make sure you're getting enough protein. Muscle
is made of protein, and (2) you build muscle *slowly* so you don't
need a lot of extra calories, but you do need some, and they need to
be the right calories (protein and carbs build muscle) and at the
right time (before and after your workouts).

Thanks, this is helpful.

Martha

--
Sig pending

Martha Gallagher wrote:
:: Hey Roger,
::
:: On Mon, 23 May 2005, Roger Zoul wrote:
::
::: Martha Gallagher wrote:
::
::: We're
::::: starting w/ 2 weeks at as full intensity as I can do, but of
::::: course I have aspirations to keep this up longer term. I'm a 42
::::: yo female, 5'6", 145. I'm good with the cardio, but frankly I'm
::::: not nearly as strong as I should be - even my quads aren't as
::::: strong as I thought. Looking on the bright side, that means I
::::: should be able to make some early gains comparatively easily,
::::: right?
:::
::: Yes....as long as you don't overdo things and you get plenty of
::: rest... Keep in mind that it is possible to train for strength and
::: not size...getting stronger doesn't mean getting bigger.
:::
::: Do you really wish to bulk up? I'm finding that hard to believe....
:::
::
:: I'm a 42 yo woman with a normal hormonal balance, no intention of
:: taking steroids or other growth inducing substances (other than
:: protein <g>😉 and no personal or family history of unusual muscle
:: growth. For practical purposes, there's no chance that I will bulk
:: up.
::
:: But, I would like to be as strong as I can be. One, just by existing,
:: muscle burns calories. I wouldn't mind kicking the metabolism up a
:: notch or two. Two, strong is good. Despite the fact that I get more
:: regular exercise than most people I know, I can't carry my 2 yo
:: nephew around for more than a few minutes without my arms getting
:: really tired (in fairness to me I think the kid has lead-plated
:: bones - he's not fat, but man is he heavy). Three, I've got a few
:: years, but I'm heading towards menopause. I think the quality of my
:: life will be greatly improved the more muscle and bone I carry over
:: into it. It's a lot easier to build a solid foundation now than it
:: will be later.
::
:: I'm not going to turn into Ms Olympia - Sr Division, but I certainly
:: wouldn't mind being able to find my biceps. I don't care or expect
:: to get ripped abs, but I would like the strength to be able to do
:: crunches.
::
:::::
::::: My second question is - can I really skip the cardio while I'm
::::: working on building mass?
:::
::: You probably can do 3 per week sessions of 35 mins to maintain.
::: You can compensate by eating more to offset the calorie burn, if
::: need be. You can also incorporate some HIIT into your program.
::: That'll help burn more of the fat off (referring to the 10 lbs you
::: mention below).
:::
::
:: Thanks, that's a good idea. I'm going to be starting swim season
:: soon, so I can do that for my cardio.
::
::
::: The workouts have gotten my heart pumping
::::: by themselves so it's not like I have to worry that I'm setting
::::: myself up for a serious cardiac event by skipping cardio for a
::::: while, but I don't know, it just seems weird to not have to hit
::::: the elliptical most nights.
:::
::: Plenty of people don't do any cardio and don't have cardiac events,
::: either.
:::
::
:: Yes, that was a joke.
::
:::::
::::: Thirdly, I've been eating at maintenance for some time (eventually
::::: there are maybe 10 lbs I wouldn't mind getting off, but it isn't a
::::: high priority and at the moment I'm more interested in building up
::::: my strength), how do I know whether or not I need to add
::::: calories? I don't mind putting on a *little* fat during this
::::: period - I assume I'll alternate between muscle building and fat
::::: losing periods until I've got the muscle/fat ratio I want- but I
::::: also don't want to make the mistake of thinking that the workouts
::::: give me unlimited eating privileges.
:::
::: I'd suggest you continue to eat at maintenance and forget this
::: bulking/cutting stuff for now. Go for general fitness and
::: strength. Right now it's more important to learn about working out
::: and to establish a consistent pattern of doing so. After you have
::: truly made it a part of your life, you can think about tragetting
::: muscle mass. The newbie gains you get during the first 6 months
::: may be all you really need or want.
:::
:: Well, I do have a background and a basis wrt the fitness part at
:: least. My exercise program coming into this has been around 1 hour
:: on the elliptical, 5 days/week, averaging 6mph or higher. FWIW, my
:: trainer said my cardio fitness was quite, quite good.
::
:: I'm not looking at it in terms of bulking/cutting in the bodybuilding
:: sense, but simply - I have a goal of building as much muscle as I
:: can from my workouts (for the reasons I gave above), how can I do
:: that while limiting my fat gain. If it's not possible to optimize
:: both, then I'd like to concentrate on building muscle for some
:: period.
::
:: I dunno, does that really seem so strange?

I would definitely reduce the cardio time and replace it with resistance
training. Doing the high intensity intervals will keep your heart strong.
Eating adequate protein while lifting smart will result in some nice gains
for you. If you eat slightly above maintenance (to slow weight gain), you
might be able to gain 10 lbs of muscle in the first year (it's harder as you
get older). Your strength could improve more than that amount would seem to
indicate, though, as strength and muscle mass aren't directly related.

Quoted message said:

"how do I know whether or not I need to
add calories? I :: don't mind putting on a
*little* fat during this period - I assume ::
I'll alternate between muscle building >and fat losing periods...... "

No. If you keep eating the number of cals you are eating now, the energy
needed to build muscle will come out of your fat deposits. However, you
might NOT lose weight---because muscle tissue weighs a LOT more than
fat. In other words, you might actually GAIN weight, but measure several
inches smaller.

For instane, female bodybuilders might cmpare to an aerobics teacher in
size, that is, be the same height, even wear the same size clothes. But
the bodybuilder may weight 20-25 pounds more than the aerobics gal.

That's the beauty part of having muscles---7 calories per pound of
muscle are required to keep that muscle alive. Only four calories per
pound are required to "feed" fat. So, say you have a 22 inch thigh
that's all fat. Say somebody else has a 22 inch thigh that's all muscle.
The muscle-leg gal can eat damn near twice the calories of her plump-leg
friend! (provided, of course, she also has muscles everywhere else, too)
The more muscle tissue you have...the more you can EAT!

Since you'll be traning for strength, not size (Im assuming?), you will
need to do many repetitions with a lighter weight. If you wanted more
mass (BIG muscles, you'd want to use much heavier weights at fewer reps.
Since women dont have much testosterone, we tend to NOT gan much in the
way of BIG muscles, regardless of the heaviness of the weights. (so go
ahead and use heavier weights for bicep curls and tricep presses) You
wont end up with Schwartzenegger arms--but with beautifully defined arms
capable of carrying huge bags of groceries up three flights of stairs)

This is where you get to make a choice---IF you want to LOSE the
remaining fat you have and make muscles that are lean and strong, use
lighter weights, more reps.

IF you want to build, say bigger shoulders to balance a wider butt, use
heavy weights, fewer reps, on the upper body.

Most women want long, strong, slender legs---use lighter weights, more
reps for lower body. If you want a more shapely, bigger calf, do donkey
raises with heavy weights. ( a donkey raise is, holding fairly heavy
dumbells on your shoulders while risng up and down on your tiptoes) A
lot depends on what parts of your body you want bigger and which you
want smaller.

remember the rule is_
smaller= light weight/many reps
bigger=heavy weights/fewer reps.

That's why they call it "sculpting" the body---you get to actually make
your various parts the way you want them to be. (within genetic
possibility)

LassChance
(aka WIR)

Start LC~5-16-05
202-199-165
(i only weigh on Sunday)

Lass Chance said:

On gaining muscle---It ALL depends on whethr your body type is
mesomorph, endomorph or ectomorph.
If you're lucky, you're a meso. They gain muscle mass very quickly. If
you're an ecto....you wont do as well.

Mesomorphs are the broad-shouldered, narower-hipped, muscular but not
fat legs types. Even fat mesos (like me) still have strong, relatively
lean legs)

Ectos are the "soft" people---narower shoulders, wide hips, heavy legs.
I doubt you or anyone else in here is an Endo---the natursally slender
but storng, sinewey types.

Right. I forgot to mention I'm a classic endomorph.(I think you reversed
endo and ecto - I think ectos are the willowy ones - but I know what you
mean) Even after having lipo, I'm still wider in the hips than most people
of my height/weight.

Quoted message said:

Mesos make great body builders (yes, Arnold is a classic example) Endos
make great runners, swimmers, bikers. Ecto's....well, they arent
generally athletes. Well, maybe bowling.

I think endos are born to be sumatori. I was also quite a good rider, and
of course distance swimming is no problem (I'm optimized to float)

Quoted message said:

The good news is, most people are a combo of two types....so, even if
you're partly ecto, myabe you've got enough meso to swing the balance.
If not...Im sorry to say....dont expect much muscle mass and be prepared
to work your ass off for what you do get.

That sounds like me.

Quoted message said:

Also be prepared to LOSE what you do get VERY quickly IF you stop weight
training.

Really, that's interesting. I hadn't heard that and my experience was that
when I did weight training before I stayed strong for quite a long time
afterwards. But, of course, I was younger then.

Quoted message said:

regarding cardio---YES you definitely do still need it. Cardio burns
calories.
If you are an ecto, you will especialy need LOTS of cardio. The sad
truth is, an ecto must work twice as hard to accomplish half as much as
a meso. Sucks, but that's the way it is. however, even an ecto can

Sounds like being a woman in general <g> Good to know, fortunately
swimming season is coming up here, so I can make that my default aerobic
work for the summer.

Quoted message said:

still burn plenty of fat by doing aerobic ex.

Thanks,
Martha

--
Sig pending

Martha Gallagher said:

Anything else I haven't thought of and should?

I highly suggest that you have your trainer test your BF% and if
possible do a 7 site caliper test. That way over time you'll be
able to quantify your progress on gaining LBM and losing body fat.

--
Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
-Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

Quoted message said:

"I think you reversed endo and ecto "

Oh, god...yes, I did. I ALWAYS do that!
I must write 100 times, "ECTO's are THIN!" until it carves a niche in my
brain.....sheeesh.

LassChance
(aka WIR)

Start LC~5-16-05
202-199-165
(i only weigh on Sunday)

So you're a fat idiot, dispensing advice that would only be followed by even
bigger idiots.

--
Now [censored]. You cannot possibly be this stupid and remember to
breathe. You must be trolling. -- Carmen

"Lass Chance" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"I think you reversed endo and ecto "

Oh, god...yes, I did. I ALWAYS do that!
I must write 100 times, "ECTO's are THIN!" until it carves a niche in my
brain.....sheeesh.

LassChance
(aka WIR)

Start LC~5-16-05
202-199-165
(i only weigh on Sunday)

"Martha Gallagher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm not looking at it in terms of bulking/cutting in the bodybuilding
sense, but simply - I have a goal of building as much muscle as I can from
my workouts (for the reasons I gave above), how can I do that while
limiting my fat gain. If it's not possible to optimize both, then I'd like
to concentrate on building muscle for some period.

I dunno, does that really seem so strange?

Makes sense to me. Very interesting thread - thanks for starting it!

Nicky.

--
A1c 10.5/4.5/<6 Weight 95/77/72Kg
1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
T2 DX 05/2004