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Questions about L'Equipe

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24 August 2005
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Colin Campbell
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  1. 1. Were the six samples the only ones that were taken from Armstrong in
    1999? If not, were the remainder tested? If not, isn't it time to test
    those, too? If others were not positive, then wouldn't the tests in
    their entirety be called into question? (Supposedly, twelve samples
    tested positive, and they implicated six riders, so if six samples came
    from Armstrong, then one rider had two positive samples, and four others
    had single positive samples. It seems the responsible thing to do would
    be to makes sure ALL samples from ALL of these riders get tested.
    L'Equipe would appear to know who the other riders are, so they should
    be able to find all the sample numbers that came from them. It seems a
    bit one-sided NOT to make sure all these samples were tested, and if
    L'Equipe is going to name Armstrong, they should name the others as well.)

    2. Do they have samples from the years before 1999, and the years
    after? If so, isn't it time to test them, too? (There was some mention
    of the need to use masking agents if one continued to use EPO after the
    first EPO test became available in 2001. Armstrong rode in earlier
    tours, and won at least one stage previously, which should mean at least
    one sample was taken, if the rules for sampling were in force ten years
    ago.)

    3. Does L'Equipe's story accomplish anything more than character
    assasination, since it appears that no sanctions can be applied, and the
    person "outed" cannot defend himself? And isn't the failure to name ALL
    the riders a little bit suspect?

    4. Will this make Armstrong so mad that he "unretires", and comes back
    to try and win the Tour de France again?

  2. Colin Campbell said:

    1. Were the six samples the only ones that were taken from Armstrong in
    1999? If not, were the remainder tested? If not, isn't it time to test
    those, too? If others were not positive, then wouldn't the tests in
    their entirety be called into question? (Supposedly, twelve samples
    tested positive, and they implicated six riders, so if six samples came
    from Armstrong, then one rider had two positive samples, and four others
    had single positive samples. It seems the responsible thing to do would
    be to makes sure ALL samples from ALL of these riders get tested.
    L'Equipe would appear to know who the other riders are, so they should
    be able to find all the sample numbers that came from them. It seems a
    bit one-sided NOT to make sure all these samples were tested, and if
    L'Equipe is going to name Armstrong, they should name the others as
    well.)

    All the samples were tested. The urine test is only able to detect EPO for
    a short window of time after it is taken. The positive tests attributed to
    Armstrong appear in three groupings (that's why L'Equipe made a big deal
    about exactly which stages they were) suggesting three different doses of
    EPO. L'Equipe says they will name the other positives in a follow-up
    story. And nowhere in the story does it say how many total riders have
    been implicated -- only that 12 samples are positive and 6 of those are
    Armstrong's.

  3. Good article on Velo News: Top Lab Official Questions L'Equipe
    Conclusions
    http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8746.0.html

  4. Colin Campbell said:

    4. Will this make Armstrong so mad that he "unretires", and comes back
    to try and win the Tour de France again?

    Hah! That would be something. One thing that vaugely bothers me about
    this whole thing is the fact that they're storing pee for 6+ years.....

  5. "Dewey B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Good article on Velo News: Top Lab Official Questions L'Equipe
    Conclusions
    http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8746.0.html

    Concerning degradation of the EPO indicators, the French lab director said
    "One of two things happens, either EPO, which is a protein, degrades as time
    passes and becomes undetectable. In that case we have a negative test result
    or, as in this case, the EPO persists as it is. We have therefore no doubt
    about the validity of our results."

    And then we have........ the third possibility..... sabotage. A French word
    of course.

  6. Mike Bruno said:


    Colin Campbell said:

    4. Will this make Armstrong so mad that he "unretires", and comes back
    to try and win the Tour de France again?

    Hah! That would be something. One thing that vaugely bothers me about
    this whole thing is the fact that they're storing pee for 6+ years.....

    As the plaintiff's lawyer I'd ask to see the freezer temperature variation
    and repair records for the past six years...among other things...lol.

    jj

  7. Who maintains custody of these old samples? How much would it cost to have
    a sample tampered with?

    ken

    "Colin Campbell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    1. Were the six samples the only ones that were taken from Armstrong in
    1999? If not, were the remainder tested? If not, isn't it time to test
    those, too? If others were not positive, then wouldn't the tests in their
    entirety be called into question? (Supposedly, twelve samples tested
    positive, and they implicated six riders, so if six samples came from
    Armstrong, then one rider had two positive samples, and four others had
    single positive samples. It seems the responsible thing to do would be to
    makes sure ALL samples from ALL of these riders get tested. L'Equipe
    would appear to know who the other riders are, so they should be able to
    find all the sample numbers that came from them. It seems a bit one-sided
    NOT to make sure all these samples were tested, and if L'Equipe is going
    to name Armstrong, they should name the others as well.)

    2. Do they have samples from the years before 1999, and the years after?
    If so, isn't it time to test them, too? (There was some mention of the
    need to use masking agents if one continued to use EPO after the first EPO
    test became available in 2001. Armstrong rode in earlier tours, and won
    at least one stage previously, which should mean at least one sample was
    taken, if the rules for sampling were in force ten years ago.)

    3. Does L'Equipe's story accomplish anything more than character
    assasination, since it appears that no sanctions can be applied, and the
    person "outed" cannot defend himself? And isn't the failure to name ALL
    the riders a little bit suspect?

    4. Will this make Armstrong so mad that he "unretires", and comes back to
    try and win the Tour de France again?

  8. Robert Chung said:
    Colin Campbell said:

    1. Were the six samples the only ones that were taken from Armstrong in
    1999? If not, were the remainder tested? If not, isn't it time to test
    those, too? If others were not positive, then wouldn't the tests in
    their entirety be called into question? (Supposedly, twelve samples
    tested positive, and they implicated six riders, so if six samples came
    from Armstrong, then one rider had two positive samples, and four others
    had single positive samples. It seems the responsible thing to do would
    be to makes sure ALL samples from ALL of these riders get tested.
    L'Equipe would appear to know who the other riders are, so they should
    be able to find all the sample numbers that came from them. It seems a
    bit one-sided NOT to make sure all these samples were tested, and if
    L'Equipe is going to name Armstrong, they should name the others as
    well.)

    All the samples were tested. The urine test is only able to detect EPO for
    a short window of time after it is taken. The positive tests attributed to
    Armstrong appear in three groupings (that's why L'Equipe made a big deal
    about exactly which stages they were) suggesting three different doses of
    EPO. L'Equipe says they will name the other positives in a follow-up
    story. And nowhere in the story does it say how many total riders have
    been implicated -- only that 12 samples are positive and 6 of those are
    Armstrong's.


    Robert,
    You're right, I misread the article somehow to say that six riders were
    found to have positive results. (Still, if L'Equipe did the number
    matching, they must know how many other riders are involved, and their
    name(s), so why keep that part a secret until the follow-up story?)

    I also missed the part about all the 1999 samples having been tested.
    But it's right there when I reread the Cyclingnews version.

    I'll try to read more carefully.
    Colin
    =====
    I looked up the 1999 Tour history. Armstrong won the Prologue and three
    stages, led after the Prologue and Stage 1, then took the Maillot Jaune
    back after Stage 8, and held it the rest of the way. Isn't the race
    leader one of the "automatic" drug test subjects, along with the stage
    winner (and runner-up - ?)? If so, it looks as if there would be more
    than six samples from Armstrong. How could some be positive and others not?

  9. IMKen said:

    Who maintains custody of these old samples? How much would it cost to have
    a sample tampered with?

    ken

    A shoebox full of vintage Jerry Lewis movies.

    jj

    Quoted message said:

    "Colin Campbell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    1. Were the six samples the only ones that were taken from Armstrong in
    1999? If not, were the remainder tested? If not, isn't it time to test
    those, too? If others were not positive, then wouldn't the tests in their
    entirety be called into question? (Supposedly, twelve samples tested
    positive, and they implicated six riders, so if six samples came from
    Armstrong, then one rider had two positive samples, and four others had
    single positive samples. It seems the responsible thing to do would be to
    makes sure ALL samples from ALL of these riders get tested. L'Equipe
    would appear to know who the other riders are, so they should be able to
    find all the sample numbers that came from them. It seems a bit one-sided
    NOT to make sure all these samples were tested, and if L'Equipe is going
    to name Armstrong, they should name the others as well.)

    2. Do they have samples from the years before 1999, and the years after?
    If so, isn't it time to test them, too? (There was some mention of the
    need to use masking agents if one continued to use EPO after the first EPO
    test became available in 2001. Armstrong rode in earlier tours, and won
    at least one stage previously, which should mean at least one sample was
    taken, if the rules for sampling were in force ten years ago.)

    3. Does L'Equipe's story accomplish anything more than character
    assasination, since it appears that no sanctions can be applied, and the
    person "outed" cannot defend himself? And isn't the failure to name ALL
    the riders a little bit suspect?

    4. Will this make Armstrong so mad that he "unretires", and comes back to
    try and win the Tour de France again?


  10. Colin Campbell said:

    I looked up the 1999 Tour history. Armstrong won the Prologue and three
    stages, led after the Prologue and Stage 1, then took the Maillot Jaune
    back after Stage 8, and held it the rest of the way. Isn't the race
    leader one of the "automatic" drug test subjects, along with the stage
    winner (and runner-up - ?)? If so, it looks as if there would be more
    than six samples from Armstrong. How could some be positive and others
    not?

    The urine EPO test has a detection window that's estimated to be only
    three days wide. The test has three parts. For an explanation of the
    parts, see Mike Owens' post here:
    http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/browse_frm/thread/1628720ba382e9ee/d6ac5b7518aa13b6#d6ac5b7518aa13b6

  11. Robert Chung said:

    All the samples were tested. The urine test is only able to detect EPO for
    a short window of time after it is taken. The positive tests attributed to
    Armstrong appear in three groupings (that's why L'Equipe made a big deal
    about exactly which stages they were) suggesting three different doses of
    EPO.

    It would be interesting to know if the hematocrit records of the
    UCI vampires from 1999 support this theory. Of course, that
    depends on when Armstrong had blood drawn (AFAIK the blood test
    is independent of the tests the race leader is subjected to, and
    doesn't happen every day) and secondarily on the time lag between
    EPO use and hematocrit.

    Quoted message said:

    L'Equipe says they will name the other positives in a follow-up
    story. And nowhere in the story does it say how many total riders have
    been implicated -- only that 12 samples are positive and 6 of those are
    Armstrong's.

    I'd like to see the distribution of the quantity (% basic) that they
    are using to select positif/negatif. Actually, I'd like to see
    it for the frozen 1999 samples, and for a set of samples that was
    tested in 2001 (?) at the original introduction of the test,
    and the same set retested four years later.

  12. Quoted message said:
    Robert Chung said:

    All the samples were tested. The urine test is only able to detect EPO
    for a short window of time after it is taken. The positive tests
    attributed to Armstrong appear in three groupings (that's why L'Equipe
    made a big deal about exactly which stages they were) suggesting three
    different doses of EPO.

    It would be interesting to know if the hematocrit records of the
    UCI vampires from 1999 support this theory.

    The %basic from Armstrong's samples:
    Prologue, 3 Jul 1999: 100
    1st stage, 4 Jul: 89.7

    9th stage, 13 Jul: 96.6
    10th stage, 14 Jul: 88.7

    12th stage, 16 Jul: 95.2
    14th stage, 18 Jul: 89.4

    Presumably, other samples were taken (since he wore yellow from the 8th
    stage on) and they were under the cut-off.

    Quoted message said:

    I'd like to see the distribution of the quantity (% basic) that they
    are using to select positif/negatif.

    The article says that 80% +- 5%. In
    http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/equipe23aug05.jpg you can actually see
    one value of 81.3 that they didn't flag in column B (although it met their
    criteria for columns A and C) so it looks like in this case they were
    using 85% as the cut-off. In the other thread, Owens says that %basic in
    normal blood is around 40.

  13. "Jet" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 23 Aug 2005 19:17:26 -0700, "Mike Bruno" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    Colin Campbell said:

    4. Will this make Armstrong so mad that he "unretires", and comes back
    to try and win the Tour de France again?

    Hah! That would be something. One thing that vaugely bothers me about
    this whole thing is the fact that they're storing pee for 6+ years.....

    As the plaintiff's lawyer I'd ask to see the freezer temperature variation
    and repair records for the past six years...among other things...lol.

    jj

    I'd just put Doctor Christiane Ayotte, director of the Doping Control
    Laboratory at Montreal's Institut National de la Recherché Scientifique, on
    the stand to testify that EPO can not be detected in urine after 2 or 3
    months, even when frozen.

    http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8746.0.html

  14. Robert Chung said:

    story. And nowhere in the story does it say how many total riders have
    been implicated -- only that 12 samples are positive and 6 of those are
    Armstrong's.

    There's at least three other riders implicated, as all four samples
    from the prologue came positive. Now, do we have an Escartin virtual
    win?

    Jenko

  15. Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
    trg <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    Quoted message said:

    "Jet" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 23 Aug 2005 19:17:26 -0700, "Mike Bruno" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    Hah! That would be something. One thing that vaugely bothers me
    about this whole thing is the fact that they're storing pee for 6+
    years.....

    As the plaintiff's lawyer I'd ask to see the freezer temperature
    variation and repair records for the past six years...among other
    things...lol. jj

    I'd just put Doctor Christiane Ayotte, director of the Doping Control
    Laboratory at Montreal's Institut National de la Recherché
    Scientifique, on the stand to testify that EPO can not be detected in
    urine after 2 or 3 months, even when frozen.


    What's with all you amateur lawyers ? Do they still show Perry Mason ?
    --
    Bonne route !

    Sandy
    Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

  16. Jenko said:
    Robert Chung said:

    story. And nowhere in the story does it say how many total riders have
    been implicated -- only that 12 samples are positive and 6 of those are
    Armstrong's.

    There's at least three other riders implicated, as all four samples
    from the prologue came positive. Now, do we have an Escartin virtual
    win?

    Yeah, I had noticed that, too. BTW, I was mistaken when I said that only
    eleven of the twelve positives were visible on the pages L'Equipe
    published. All twelve positives are visible.

  17. "Sandy" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
    trg <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    Quoted message said:

    "Jet" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 23 Aug 2005 19:17:26 -0700, "Mike Bruno" <[email hidden]>
    >
    > Hah! That would be something. One thing that vaugely bothers me
    > about this whole thing is the fact that they're storing pee for 6+
    > years.....

    As the plaintiff's lawyer I'd ask to see the freezer temperature
    variation and repair records for the past six years...among other
    things...lol. jj

    I'd just put Doctor Christiane Ayotte, director of the Doping Control
    Laboratory at Montreal's Institut National de la Recherché
    Scientifique, on the stand to testify that EPO can not be detected in
    urine after 2 or 3 months, even when frozen.


    What's with all you amateur lawyers ? Do they still show Perry Mason ?
    --
    Bonne route !

    Sandy
    Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

    Yes, but nowhere near as often as Columbo is shown in France.

  18. Sandy said:

    Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
    trg <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    Quoted message said:

    "Jet" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 23 Aug 2005 19:17:26 -0700, "Mike Bruno" <[email hidden]>
    >
    > Hah! That would be something. One thing that vaugely bothers me
    > about this whole thing is the fact that they're storing pee for 6+
    > years.....

    As the plaintiff's lawyer I'd ask to see the freezer temperature
    variation and repair records for the past six years...among other
    things...lol. jj

    I'd just put Doctor Christiane Ayotte, director of the Doping Control
    Laboratory at Montreal's Institut National de la Recherché
    Scientifique, on the stand to testify that EPO can not be detected in
    urine after 2 or 3 months, even when frozen.


    What's with all you amateur lawyers ? Do they still show Perry Mason ?

    Hey, man, just jokin' around here. Lighten. ;-)

    jj

  19. Sandy, I think that we're seeing the absolute depth to which some
    people will sink.

    EPO is a very unstable compound and it seems pretty clear that someone
    was willing to go to any lengths to sully the repuation of Armstrong.

    And explain this - since the hematocrit test was used to limit EPO's
    use - this would imply that if EPO were in as common use as was claimed
    in the 90's that EVERY sample or at least the majority of samples would
    show EPO. And yet apparently they didn't.

    Magically, an unstable compound that couldn't be there, was detected
    almost entirely in Armstrong's urine.

    You are hardly a nut-case like Lafferty and you must certainly have a
    real opinion on this rather than the Dance's With Wolves that Lafferty
    is doing.

  20. I have to admit that's pretty funny.

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