Question regarding newer Giant TCR Aluminum-Composite Frames.

Quoted message said:

I find aluminum bikes rather stiff, causing aches and pains. My steel
bikes have never and continue not to cause these problems. And yes I
have tried different things, ti stem, carbon fork + varied seat
positions. I have been thinking maybe Giant might have an answer to my
pain? I would like to hear from anyone who has put one of these bikes/
frames to the test.

i think you have a fit problem, not a materials problem. yes, some
aluminum frames can be stiff, but the modern ones are great - my
aluminum bianchi ev3 is the comfiest bike i own, much better than any of
my steels.

study the steels and figure out what about their geometry works for you,
then looks for a modern aluminum [or carbon] frame that replicates it.
curved rear seat stays help. [giant like those.] and carbon seat
posts. also, make sure you're able to go for a decent length test ride
on any potential new candidate!

Quoted message said:

I find aluminum bikes rather stiff, causing aches and pains. My steel
bikes have never and continue not to cause these problems. And yes I
have tried different things, ti stem, carbon fork + varied seat
positions. I have been thinking maybe Giant might have an answer to my
pain? I would like to hear from anyone who has put one of these bikes/
frames to the test.

At the risk of being obvious, why not just get a steel bike?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:22:02 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I find aluminum bikes rather stiff, causing aches and pains. My steel
bikes have never and continue not to cause these problems. And yes I
have tried different things, ti stem, carbon fork + varied seat
positions. I have been thinking maybe Giant might have an answer to my
pain? I would like to hear from anyone who has put one of these bikes/
frames to the test.

At the risk of being obvious, why not just get a steel bike?

Dear Andrew,

I'm afraid that your question is not material.

:-)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:22:02 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I find aluminum bikes rather stiff, causing aches and pains. My steel
bikes have never and continue not to cause these problems. And yes I
have tried different things, ti stem, carbon fork + varied seat
positions. I have been thinking maybe Giant might have an answer to my
pain? I would like to hear from anyone who has put one of these bikes/
frames to the test.

At the risk of being obvious, why not just get a steel bike?

Dear Andrew,

I'm afraid that your question is not material.

:-)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[groan]

Quoted message said:

I find aluminum bikes rather stiff, causing aches and pains. My steel
bikes have never and continue not to cause these problems. And yes I
have tried different things, ti stem, carbon fork + varied seat
positions. I have been thinking maybe Giant might have an answer to my
pain? I would like to hear from anyone who has put one of these bikes/
frames to the test.

I'd be willing to bet that it's the configuration of your bike that is
intrinsically uncomfortable, and that it has nothing to do with the
frame material.

When I see folks riding silly bikes with tires like rubber bands, drop
bars mounted well below saddle level, and saddles the size of tortilla
chips, I don't wonder why riders of such bikes are fascinated with
magical materials that promise to save them from their suffering. I
do wonder why they go to such lengths to ignore the obvious about the
reasons they are uncomfortable.

Making six inch stiletto-heeled pumps out of carbon fiber won't make
them comfortable either. Such is the cost of vanity.

CHalo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I find aluminum bikes rather stiff, causing aches and pains. My steel
bikes have never and continue not to cause these problems. And yes I
have tried different things, ti stem, carbon fork + varied seat
positions. I have been thinking maybe Giant might have an answer to my
pain? I would like to hear from anyone who has put one of these bikes/
frames to the test.

Chalo said:

I'd be willing to bet that it's the configuration of your bike that is
intrinsically uncomfortable, and that it has nothing to do with the
frame material.

When I see folks riding silly bikes with tires like rubber bands, drop
bars mounted well below saddle level, and saddles the size of tortilla
chips, I don't wonder why riders of such bikes are fascinated with
magical materials that promise to save them from their suffering. I
do wonder why they go to such lengths to ignore the obvious about the
reasons they are uncomfortable.

Making six inch stiletto-heeled pumps out of carbon fiber won't make
them comfortable either. Such is the cost of vanity.

I'm with you that there's probably more going on here than merely 'steel
versus aluminum'.
That being said, the bike I ride most has flat bars just below saddle
height. Mudguards too. In traffic and for short urban rides it's the
most comfortable thing I could imagine and, well, perfect for its use.
(foul/cold weather fixie has bars right at saddle height) My less ridden
Sunday morning bike has much lower 3ttt Merckx bars and, for what I ask
of it, is also perfect - for a different milieu.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

I find aluminum bikes rather stiff, causing aches and pains. My steel
bikes have never and continue not to cause these problems. And yes I
have tried different things, ti stem, carbon fork + varied seat
positions. I have been thinking maybe Giant might have an answer to my
pain? I would like to hear from anyone who has put one of these bikes/
frames to the test.

Cheers
Colin

Do your steel bikes, by any chance, have longer chainstays? And possibly
wider tires?

I believe chainstay length is a major, and rarely looked at, contributor to
ride comfort (or discomfort). The irony is that very short chainstays became
a popular way of dealing with frame flex back in the steel days. Newer
materials allow much stronger/stiffer chainstay designs that don't have to
be short to be laterally rigid, and yet many manufacturers continue to make
them very short (sometimes "illegally" short according to Shimano's spec for
minimum chainstay length, a spec they came up with to ensure reasonable
shifting performance).

It's a strange one; product engineers just really like short chainstays.
Must be the look of the bike or something. It's a battle I constantly fight
with them.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

...

It's a strange one; product engineers just really like short chainstays.
Must be the look of the bike or something. It's a battle I constantly fight
with them.

Fashion is generally stupid.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

On 2008-01-21, Mike Jacoubowsky <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

I believe chainstay length is a major, and rarely looked at, contributor to
ride comfort (or discomfort). The irony is that very short chainstays became
a popular way of dealing with frame flex back in the steel days. Newer
materials allow much stronger/stiffer chainstay designs that don't have to
be short to be laterally rigid, and yet many manufacturers continue to make
them very short (sometimes "illegally" short according to Shimano's spec for
minimum chainstay length, a spec they came up with to ensure reasonable
shifting performance).

How does chainstay length affect shifting performance?

Ben C said:

On 2008-01-21, Mike Jacoubowsky <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

I believe chainstay length is a major, and rarely looked at, contributor to
ride comfort (or discomfort). The irony is that very short chainstays became
a popular way of dealing with frame flex back in the steel days. Newer
materials allow much stronger/stiffer chainstay designs that don't have to
be short to be laterally rigid, and yet many manufacturers continue to make
them very short (sometimes "illegally" short according to Shimano's spec for
minimum chainstay length, a spec they came up with to ensure reasonable
shifting performance).

How does chainstay length affect shifting performance?

Dear Ben,

The closer the front and rear sprockets are, the greater the angling
of the chain off the sprockets.

So the shorter the chainstays, the sooner you're cross-chaining, which
usually means poor shifting and noise.

Here's a 3x7 with exaggerated short and a long chainstay lengths:

7-- 7--
6-- 6--
H ---* . 5-- 5--
M --- ' . 4-- 4--
L --- *3-- . 3--
2-- ' . 2--
1-- *1--

With the short version, H-front x 3rd-rear runs the chain at as bad an
angle as the long version's chain running from H-front x 1st-rear.

When you have 10 rear gears crammed into roughly the same space,
shifting gets finicky anyway. Shorten the chainstays, and complaints
about shifting problems rise.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:09:46 -0600, Ben C <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How does chainstay length affect shifting performance?

Dear Ben,

The closer the front and rear sprockets are, the greater the angling
of the chain off the sprockets.

I see, thanks.

Quoted message said:

I find aluminum bikes rather stiff, causing aches and pains. My steel
bikes have never and continue not to cause these problems. And yes I
have tried different things, ti stem, carbon fork + varied seat
positions. I have been thinking maybe Giant might have an answer to my
pain? I would like to hear from anyone who has put one of these bikes/
frames to the test.

Cheers
Colin

colin i used to have a fuji team sl that was very light but the
aluminum frame was too rough. this was a racer's bike. i also have a
giant ocr3 aluminum that is way more comfortable, and then i also have
a giant tcr carbon that is way better. so yes aluminum can be harsh,
but it all depends on the geometry. the tcr geometry is more
aggressive than the ocr geometry
carlos
http://www.bikingthings.com
ride hard, get fit, be happy

Quoted message said:

I find aluminum bikes rather stiff, causing aches and pains. My steel
bikes have never and continue not to cause these problems. And yes I
have tried different things, ti stem, carbon fork + varied seat
positions. I have been thinking maybe Giant might have an answer to my
pain? I would like to hear from anyone who has put one of these bikes/
frames to the test.

Cheers
Colin

Hey Guys

Thank you for the info.
Cheers
Colin

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Chalo said:

Quoted message said:

I find aluminum bikes rather stiff, causing aches and pains. My steel
bikes have never and continue not to cause these problems. And yes I
have tried different things, ti stem, carbon fork + varied seat
positions. I have been thinking maybe Giant might have an answer to my
pain? I would like to hear from anyone who has put one of these bikes/
frames to the test.

I'd be willing to bet that it's the configuration of your bike that is
intrinsically uncomfortable, and that it has nothing to do with the
frame material.

When I see folks riding silly bikes with tires like rubber bands, drop
bars mounted well below saddle level, and saddles the size of tortilla
chips, I don't wonder why riders of such bikes are fascinated with
magical materials that promise to save them from their suffering. I
do wonder why they go to such lengths to ignore the obvious about the
reasons they are uncomfortable.

Making six inch stiletto-heeled pumps out of carbon fiber won't make
them comfortable either. Such is the cost of vanity.

Is 40 mm below the saddle well below?
Are 25-28 (measured) tires rubber bands?
Brooks saddle a taco chip?
Trust me, I am not uncomfortable.
No numbness, no pain.
I enjoy riding my bicycles.

--
Michael Press

In article <[email hidden]>,

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I find aluminum bikes rather stiff, causing aches and pains. My steel
bikes have never and continue not to cause these problems. And yes I
have tried different things, ti stem, carbon fork + varied seat
positions. I have been thinking maybe Giant might have an answer to my
pain? I would like to hear from anyone who has put one of these bikes/
frames to the test.

Chalo said:

I'd be willing to bet that it's the configuration of your bike that is
intrinsically uncomfortable, and that it has nothing to do with the
frame material.

When I see folks riding silly bikes with tires like rubber bands, drop
bars mounted well below saddle level, and saddles the size of tortilla
chips, I don't wonder why riders of such bikes are fascinated with
magical materials that promise to save them from their suffering. I
do wonder why they go to such lengths to ignore the obvious about the
reasons they are uncomfortable.

Making six inch stiletto-heeled pumps out of carbon fiber won't make
them comfortable either. Such is the cost of vanity.

I'm with you that there's probably more going on here than merely 'steel
versus aluminum'.
That being said, the bike I ride most has flat bars just below saddle
height. Mudguards too. In traffic and for short urban rides it's the
most comfortable thing I could imagine and, well, perfect for its use.
(foul/cold weather fixie has bars right at saddle height) My less ridden
Sunday morning bike has much lower 3ttt Merckx bars and, for what I ask
of it, is also perfect - for a different milieu.

I found those TTT Merckx bars by chance.
Needed bars for a new bike and wanted to
duplicate Cinelli Campione Mondo.

--
Michael Press

In article <[email hidden]>,

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I find aluminum bikes rather stiff, causing aches and pains. My steel
bikes have never and continue not to cause these problems. And yes I
have tried different things, ti stem, carbon fork + varied seat
positions. I have been thinking maybe Giant might have an answer to my
pain? I would like to hear from anyone who has put one of these bikes/
frames to the test.

Chalo said:

I'd be willing to bet that it's the configuration of your bike that is
intrinsically uncomfortable, and that it has nothing to do with the
frame material.

When I see folks riding silly bikes with tires like rubber bands, drop
bars mounted well below saddle level, and saddles the size of tortilla
chips, I don't wonder why riders of such bikes are fascinated with
magical materials that promise to save them from their suffering. I
do wonder why they go to such lengths to ignore the obvious about the
reasons they are uncomfortable.

Making six inch stiletto-heeled pumps out of carbon fiber won't make
them comfortable either. Such is the cost of vanity.

I'm with you that there's probably more going on here than merely 'steel
versus aluminum'.
That being said, the bike I ride most has flat bars just below saddle
height. Mudguards too. In traffic and for short urban rides it's the
most comfortable thing I could imagine and, well, perfect for its use.
(foul/cold weather fixie has bars right at saddle height) My less ridden
Sunday morning bike has much lower 3ttt Merckx bars and, for what I ask
of it, is also perfect - for a different milieu.

When last I built up a new bicycle long chainstays were a requirement.

--
Michael Press

Ben C said:

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:09:46 -0600, Ben C <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How does chainstay length affect shifting performance?

Dear Ben,

The closer the front and rear sprockets are, the greater the angling
of the chain off the sprockets.

I see, thanks.

there's also more flex going on with a longer stay.

Michael Press said:

Chalo said:

When I see folks riding silly bikes with tires like rubber bands, drop
bars mounted well below saddle level, and saddles the size of tortilla
chips, I don't wonder why riders of such bikes are fascinated with
magical materials that promise to save them from their suffering. I
do wonder why they go to such lengths to ignore the obvious about the
reasons they are uncomfortable.

Is 40 mm below the saddle well below?

Nope. I'd do better with 40mm above, but that's not the kind of folly
I'm talking about.

Quoted message said:

Are 25-28 (measured) tires rubber bands?

Those are what I would call "the next worst thing".

Quoted message said:

Brooks saddle a taco chip?

Definitely not. The term "chip" means something different in England,
something more substantial and nourishing. ;^)

Quoted message said:

Trust me, I am not uncomfortable.
No numbness, no pain.
I enjoy riding my bicycles.

But would you enjoy riding these?

http://mos.bikeradar.com/images/bikes-and-gear/bikes/road/Giant/AdvTeam01-480-70.jpg
http://www.thebikeboutique.com/images/products/2006_Cervelo_R3_Large_V1.JPG
http://www.pbase.com/smera/image/70176049/original.jpg

Bikes like these are the ones whose manufacturers often promise
comfort based on subtleties of the plastic used to make their frames.
I suspect there are easier and more straightforward ways to address
their comfort issues.

Chalo

Chalo Colina said:

...
But would you enjoy riding these?

http://mos.bikeradar.com/images/bikes-and-gear/bikes/road/Giant/AdvTeam01-480-70.jpg
http://www.thebikeboutique.com/images/products/2006_Cervelo_R3_Large_V1.JPG
http://www.pbase.com/smera/image/70176049/original.jpg

If I were getting a drop-bar upright, it would be more like this (but
with a little taller stem): <http://www.gunnarbikes.com/gch_web.jpg>. 38
mm tires (with fenders) should be adequate for my 0.55 Chalo mass.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth