Question on Bike Lights

marco007esq said:

After spending years using crappy lights, I finally am fed up and ready
to drop serious money on SERIOUS lights.

The problem is, I hate to spend $200-$500 to find that I didnt get what
I wanted or what was really worth the money.

MTBR seems to universally agree that Jet lights are the greatest thing
since sliced bread - but I'm not sure about their battery pack. I had
a set of lights with an unwieldy battery pack before, and I never used
them.

Light & Motion seems to have a great battery pack and a good reputation
regarding the lights themselves.

I dont know... has anyone actually done a good comparison and does
anyone have a recommendation of the ultimate commuter / training
lights? I'd rather spend more money and get something great than shave
a few bucks and wish I'd have spent more.

HELP!

Dear Marco,

I expect that you will receive enormous amounts of vehement
advice. The longer people have ridden with a particular
light, the more vehement they will be that it is the best.
Most of the comparisons are made in theory, not in practice,
and focus on the generator versus battery wars or the LED
versus everything else debate.

Lots more heat than light, if you'll pardon the phrase.

Here's a link to a nice German test page from 2001 that
shows a number of lights shining on the same dark stretch of
road with various reflectors. The pictures are duplicated,
side by side, and you can scroll one side up and down to
compare one light to another.

http://www.fa-technik.adfc.de/Komponenten/Scheinwerfer/vergleich.htm

Be sure to scroll all the way to the bottom. The very last
light makes all the others look like glow worms. (But for
all I know, it requires a very long extension cord.)

Good luck,

Carl Fogel

r.

Quoted message said:

http://www.fa-technik.adfc.de/Komponenten/Scheinwerfer/vergleich.htm

Be sure to scroll all the way to the bottom. The very last
light makes all the others look like glow worms. (But for
all I know, it requires a very long extension cord.)

these pic's look way to bright from what I have seen. they are more to show the
shape of the beam the brightness seems exaggerated. the HID light looks so
bright you can't see what it illuminates.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 10:07:30 -0700, [email hidden] may have

Quoted message said:

Here's a link to a nice German test page from 2001 that
shows a number of lights shining on the same dark stretch of
road with various reflectors. The pictures are duplicated,
side by side, and you can scroll one side up and down to
compare one light to another.

http://www.fa-technik.adfc.de/Komponenten/Scheinwerfer/vergleich.htm

Be sure to scroll all the way to the bottom. The very last
light makes all the others look like glow worms. (But for
all I know, it requires a very long extension cord.)

That would be a light using a Welch-Allen Solarc bulb, a Topeak
version of which can be had here:

http://www.bullteksports.com/index.htm

(You'll have to navigate through the menus to the lighting section.
The Topeak Moonshine Solarc-equipped unit is the third from the bottom
of the list, at a mere $320; prices may vary elsewhere.)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On 16 Jan 2005 08:15:53 -0800, "marco007esq"

may have said:

After spending years using crappy lights, I finally am fed up and ready
to drop serious money on SERIOUS lights.

The problem is, I hate to spend $200-$500 to find that I didnt get what
I wanted or what was really worth the money.

The big questions are whether you want lots of light, lots of runtime
on a charge, or light weight. If price is not a major object, you may
pick two. It appears that you've already done some research and are
well on the way to being reasonably informed...but asking around and
getting as much real-world experience as possible (which is what
you're doing now) is a good idea. Spend the money only when you're
pretty sure that you've found the right light.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"marco007esq" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

After spending years using crappy lights, I finally am fed up and ready
to drop serious money on SERIOUS lights.

Marco: I ride a cheap 20W headlamp / lead-acid battery setup plus flashing
LEDs on the bar. I ride in urban areas, and the challenge is not so much to
see as to be seen. Drivers coming from the sides are the big hazard. Front
pointing lights do not protect from the drivers that only make the "rolling
stop" effort at residential intersections. You need something that you can
point right in their eyes. Something that is so bright that they cannot use
the "I didn't see him" defense in their multi-million dollar lawsuit.

LED lighting is undergoing rapid improvements. LED front lights are
currently marginally useful, but every month the candlepower increases and
the cost goes down. I would be reluctant to spend big bucks now. If you
can make do until next fall, then see what is out. If the current rate of
improvement of LED lighting holds, in 12 months my 12 volt system will be 3
pounds of obsolete junk.

Yeah yeah, I know I'm going to catch some flames from folks with a vested
interest in this system or that, and sellers sitting on inventory, but have
a look at the new Cateye 1000 taillight and the Cateye 500 LED headlight.
The headlight is getting close (I would mount 2 of them), and the taillight
is amazing. 10 LEDs. It is actually painful to look at from 10 feet.

marco007esq said:

After spending years using crappy lights, I finally am fed up and
ready to drop serious money on SERIOUS lights.

The problem is, I hate to spend $200-$500 to find that I didnt get
what I wanted or what was really worth the money.

MTBR seems to universally agree that Jet lights are the greatest thing
since sliced bread - but I'm not sure about their battery pack. I had
a set of lights with an unwieldy battery pack before, and I never used
them.

Light & Motion seems to have a great battery pack and a good
reputation regarding the lights themselves.

I dont know... has anyone actually done a good comparison and does
anyone have a recommendation of the ultimate commuter / training
lights? I'd rather spend more money and get something great than
shave a few bucks and wish I'd have spent more.

I don't put too much faith in MTBR. First of all, stuff is mostly written by
people excited about their new toys, with little experience of other products --
let alone enough technical knowledge to make truly intelligent obervations.
Second, it's too prone to shilling. Half the stuff on there is written by some
chick in the marketing department, posing as a series of mountain biker dudes.
I know people who have done it.

I've had Jet Lights, and I know their creator. They're very bright, efficient,
lightweight units, but their mounting systems are at best average.

Mounting systems matter a lot, especially for helmet lights. You should be able
to reach up and tweak your aim a bit. Most systems don't allow this. Two that
do are Nightsun (Sunsport) and L&M. L&M are nice systems, very well thought out
and very well made, selling at premium prices. They may be the new "king of the
mountain," which Nightrider has been for many years. The only downside to L&M
is their price. They're better than competing products, but how much better do
you need?

Another of my favorites have always been the Performance systems made by
Union/Marwi. These are great at any price, but the price is good too. I don't
know much about their latest stuff, but if past performance means anything,
they're worth checking out.

If you want better advice, post back describing how your lights will be used.

Matt O.

Steve Knight said:

r.

Quoted message said:

http://www.fa-technik.adfc.de/Komponenten/Scheinwerfer/vergleich.htm

Be sure to scroll all the way to the bottom. The very last
light makes all the others look like glow worms. (But for
all I know, it requires a very long extension cord.)

these pic's look way to bright from what I have seen. they are more to show the
shape of the beam the brightness seems exaggerated. the HID light looks so
bright you can't see what it illuminates.

Dear Steve,

Yes, I expect that things would look different (brighter or
dimmer) to the human eye than to the camera. To show the
less impressive illumination of the first twelve lights, the
exposure time was probably increased, leading the white-out
in the center of the last light--a car's high beams would
probably be even more whited-out.

But since the pictures of the lights illuminating the same
stretch of road littered with reflective test objects were
all taken under the same conditions with the same camera,
the differences are still quite interesting.

Note how poorly the first lights illuminate what turns out
to be a standing pole to the right with a sign above a
reflector.

It's about as close as we'll get to taking the same thirteen
lights and trying to compare them ourselves. It seems much
easier to see the differences in this fashion than to try to
figure out what the endless debates about lights are trying
to describe in words.

As you point out, the narrowness of some beams is instantly
obvious--it's much easier to see what people are talking
about.

Interestingly, only one light gives enough illumination to
show the edges of the road. Looking at the others, you
really can't tell if you're on a road or in a vast parking
lot. I suspect that the human eye would be able to do better
in this case than the camera.

Carl Fogel

"marco007esq" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I dont know... has anyone actually done a good comparison and does
anyone have a recommendation of the ultimate commuter / training
lights? I'd rather spend more money and get something great than shave
a few bucks and wish I'd have spent more.

How much light do you need? What is your road quality? Do you have street
lights? You need much more power on poor quality roads with no street lights.
Cygolite has some pretty good 10-15 watt systems for under $100.

Carl Fogel said:

...
Here's a link to a nice German test page from 2001 that
shows a number of lights shining on the same dark stretch of
road with various reflectors. The pictures are duplicated,
side by side, and you can scroll one side up and down to
compare one light to another.

http://www.fa-technik.adfc.de/Komponenten/Scheinwerfer/vergleich.htm

Be sure to scroll all the way to the bottom. The very last
light makes all the others look like glow worms....

The Gasentladungslampe Welsh-Allyn Solarc with a fuel cell for decent
runtime would be an acceptable light.

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island

Werehatrack said:

...
That would be a light using a Welch-Allen Solarc bulb, a Topeak
version of which can be had here:

http://www.bullteksports.com/index.htm

(You'll have to navigate through the menus to the lighting section....

Or use this direct link: <http://www.bullteksports.com/catalog/lights.htm>.

Or the Topeak web page: <http://www.topeak.com/products/light_001.html>.

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island

Quoted message said:

Interestingly, only one light gives enough illumination to
show the edges of the road. Looking at the others, you
really can't tell if you're on a road or in a vast parking
lot. I suspect that the human eye would be able to do better
in this case than the camera.

yes that is the point of the site it really shows the beam angle.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

marco007esq said:

...
I dont know... has anyone actually done a good comparison and does
anyone have a recommendation of the ultimate commuter / training
lights?...

The ultimate light: <http://snipurl.com/c24e>.

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island

marco007esq said:

After spending years using crappy lights, I finally am fed up and
ready to drop serious money on SERIOUS lights.

Heeeeeeere we go again!

Quoted message said:

The problem is, I hate to spend $200-$500 to find that I didnt get
what I wanted or what was really worth the money.

MTBR seems to universally agree that Jet lights are the greatest
thing since sliced bread - but I'm not sure about their battery
pack. I had a set of lights with an unwieldy battery pack before,
and I never used them.

Light & Motion seems to have a great battery pack and a good
reputation regarding the lights themselves.

I dont know... has anyone actually done a good comparison and does
anyone have a recommendation of the ultimate commuter / training
lights? I'd rather spend more money and get something great than
shave a few bucks and wish I'd have spent more.

HELP!

Using the lights for what? The needs of a rider plummeting down rocky
twisty singletrack at 1:00 AM are different than the needs of someone
riding a brevet on dark roads at the same time

marco007esq said:

I dont know... has anyone actually done a good comparison and does
anyone have a recommendation of the ultimate commuter / training
lights? I'd rather spend more money and get something great than shave
a few bucks and wish I'd have spent more.

I like my NiteRider. It has a Nimh battery that is considerably smaller
and lighter than a lead-acid, and it has served me well. I've had it for
about 3-4 years. First used sporadically for touring and occasional night
rides, but now use it for daily commuting. I had to send it back to them
due to some connection problems (it cut out on me on my commute), and
they repaired the connections free of charge. For an older model, no
longer made, that is good service IMO. Works better than ever, except
that battery life has slipped a little over the years.

AFAIAC what you need to consider are:

1) Brightness. You want people to think that you are on a motorcycle, or
at least to wonder "what the f* is that?" as you come at them. You want
to be able to see the road/trail well enough to not have to guess what is
in your path. Mine has 15 watts, which is great.

2) Battery life: You have to be reasonable about this. If you are
headed on 6-hour night rides, get a generator. But these high-zoot
battery lights are hard to beat for 1-2 hours of night conditions.

3) Smart Charger: Forget about any light with a dumb charger, one that
requires you to disconnect it when charged. I can just leave mine plugged
in, and not have to worry about it.

4) Durability: Obvious.

I hope that, in a year or two high-power led lights will have
revolutionized the industry, and something using 4 AAA batteries will work
as well for several hours of use. I use a 1-watt Planet Bike led light as
a backup (it is also my general-purpose flashlight, and as such is the
best I've seen). But for now, the light produced by these lights is not
enough to see, and not enough to get attention of drivers.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster." --Greg LeMond
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:01:17 -0700, [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Steve Knight said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.fa-technik.adfc.de/Komponenten/Scheinwerfer/vergleich.htm

Be sure to scroll all the way to the bottom. The very last
light makes all the others look like glow worms. (But for
all I know, it requires a very long extension cord.)

these pic's look way to bright from what I have seen.

You have seen a Solarc 10W HID light with a custom made optimised
reflector? Where?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they are more to show the
shape of the beam the brightness seems exaggerated.

All pictures are taken with the same settings of the camera - just read
the text in http://www.fa-technik.adfc.de/Komponenten/Scheinwerfer/

Quoted message said:

Yes, I expect that things would look different (brighter or
dimmer) to the human eye than to the camera.

Definitely.

Quoted message said:

To show the
less impressive illumination of the first twelve lights, the
exposure time was probably increased,

No.

Quoted message said:

It's about as close as we'll get to taking the same thirteen
lights and trying to compare them ourselves. It seems much
easier to see the differences in this fashion than to try to
figure out what the endless debates about lights are trying
to describe in words.

Thats why we did this test.

Quoted message said:

Interestingly, only one light gives enough illumination to
show the edges of the road. Looking at the others, you
really can't tell if you're on a road or in a vast parking
lot. I suspect that the human eye would be able to do better
in this case than the camera.

But how would you model the human eye here?

Andreas

Andreas Oehler said:

Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:01:17 -0700, [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Steve Knight said:

>http://www.fa-technik.adfc.de/Komponenten/Scheinwerfer/vergleich.htm
>
>Be sure to scroll all the way to the bottom. The very last
>light makes all the others look like glow worms. (But for
>all I know, it requires a very long extension cord.)

these pic's look way to bright from what I have seen.

You have seen a Solarc 10W HID light with a custom made optimised
reflector? Where?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they are more to show the
shape of the beam the brightness seems exaggerated.

All pictures are taken with the same settings of the camera - just read
the text in http://www.fa-technik.adfc.de/Komponenten/Scheinwerfer/

Quoted message said:

Yes, I expect that things would look different (brighter or
dimmer) to the human eye than to the camera.

Definitely.

Quoted message said:

To show the
less impressive illumination of the first twelve lights, the
exposure time was probably increased,

No.

Quoted message said:

It's about as close as we'll get to taking the same thirteen
lights and trying to compare them ourselves. It seems much
easier to see the differences in this fashion than to try to
figure out what the endless debates about lights are trying
to describe in words.

Thats why we did this test.

Quoted message said:

Interestingly, only one light gives enough illumination to
show the edges of the road. Looking at the others, you
really can't tell if you're on a road or in a vast parking
lot. I suspect that the human eye would be able to do better
in this case than the camera.

But how would you model the human eye here?

Andreas

Dear Andreas,.

Sorry about guessing wrong on exposure time.

I don't see how anyone could get a better set of pictures
that you did. Given the same exposure and camera and so
forth, the differences should be indicate roughly what a
human eye would see.

But the human eye would add depth perception. Until the
edges of the road emerge in the last picture and give
perspective, I can't tell that the test reflectors are
running down the edges of a road and vanishing into the
distance instead of being grouped in a half-moon right in
front of the camera.

That is, without enough illumination, I can't tell what I'm
looking at in the picture, but I think that I could tell if
I was looking at the road that things are arranged something
like this:

. . .
real
scene--> . . .

. . .

and not like this:

:
flat :
picture--> :
:
:

Once you know that the reflectors are arranged down the
sides of the road, you see things differently.

Carl Fogel

David L. Johnson said:

marco007esq said:

I dont know... has anyone actually done a good comparison and does
anyone have a recommendation of the ultimate commuter / training
lights? I'd rather spend more money and get something great than shave
a few bucks and wish I'd have spent more.

I like my NiteRider. It has a Nimh battery that is considerably smaller
and lighter than a lead-acid, and it has served me well. I've had it for
about 3-4 years. First used sporadically for touring and occasional night
rides, but now use it for daily commuting. I had to send it back to them
due to some connection problems (it cut out on me on my commute), and
they repaired the connections free of charge. For an older model, no
longer made, that is good service IMO. Works better than ever, except
that battery life has slipped a little over the years.

AFAIAC what you need to consider are:

1) Brightness. You want people to think that you are on a motorcycle, or
at least to wonder "what the f* is that?" as you come at them. You want
to be able to see the road/trail well enough to not have to guess what is
in your path. Mine has 15 watts, which is great.

2) Battery life: You have to be reasonable about this. If you are
headed on 6-hour night rides, get a generator. But these high-zoot
battery lights are hard to beat for 1-2 hours of night conditions.

If being reasonable is accepting current alternatives, then I will be
unreasonable. This is why I am impatiently waiting for fuel cell power.

Quoted message said:

3) Smart Charger: Forget about any light with a dumb charger, one that
requires you to disconnect it when charged. I can just leave mine plugged
in, and not have to worry about it.

4) Durability: Obvious.

I hope that, in a year or two high-power led lights will have
revolutionized the industry, and something using 4 AAA batteries will work
as well for several hours of use. I use a 1-watt Planet Bike led light as
a backup (it is also my general-purpose flashlight, and as such is the
best I've seen). But for now, the light produced by these lights is not
enough to see, and not enough to get attention of drivers.

See above. Power storage technology is likely to advance before LED
technology.

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island

"marco007esq" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

After spending years using crappy lights, I finally am fed up and ready
to drop serious money on SERIOUS lights.

The problem is, I hate to spend $200-$500 to find that I didnt get what
I wanted or what was really worth the money.

MTBR seems to universally agree that Jet lights are the greatest thing
since sliced bread - but I'm not sure about their battery pack. I had
a set of lights with an unwieldy battery pack before, and I never used
them.

Light & Motion seems to have a great battery pack and a good reputation
regarding the lights themselves.

I dont know... has anyone actually done a good comparison and does
anyone have a recommendation of the ultimate commuter / training
lights? I'd rather spend more money and get something great than shave
a few bucks and wish I'd have spent more.

HELP!

Hi Marco
I've been experimenting with lights for a while and I've settled on Luxeon
LED lights which I build myself.
However, the most important thing is to make sure you have a good charger.
Bad chargers kill expensive batteries by overcharging or charging
incorrectly. Money invested in an "intelligent" charger will save money and
inconvenience on poor battery performance.

Marty

Tom Sherman said:

See above. Power storage technology is likely to advance before LED
technology.

Remains to be seen. There are already 5watt leds, which will be viable
once their price comes down. Fuel cells are far further out from regular
use.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | When you are up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember
_`\(,_ | that your initial objective was to drain the swamp. -- LBJ
(_)/ (_) |