Question (noob) about TdF and "team" racing in general

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi all,

I've been loosely following the TdF (have been for several years now).
I understand the concept of drafting/echelon. To some extent, I
understand how a teammate can "help" another rider (via drafting).

HOWEVER, I am confused about some comments made during TdF coverage. I
was hoping someone could clear things up for me.

I don't understand how a team can 'help' one of their own riders (aside
from drafting, that is). Take Lance for example. I recall several
mountain finishes last year where he finished in one of the top spots
(his teammates were nowhere to be seen). But I remember commentary
indicating that <some teammate> really pulled through for Lance on the
ascent. ?? The teammate wasn't near Lance, so there was no drafting
benefit. How else can 'help' be provided?

the teammate helps by setting the pace ( usually harder than he himself can
maintain for long, but not harder for the tour contender he is leading-
there is no drafting benifits on a true climb )

Quoted message said:

A similar question...if one group of riders (presumably teammates)
decides to set a 'brutal' pace and breaks away from the peloton, what
prevents another strong rider from simply following at the back of the
new group? How can/does the 'team' drop the additional rider?

well, that's the thing, maybe they can drop the rider from the other team,
maybe not....maybe they fool the stronger rider to exerting extra effort
just to catch and stay with the group, which causes that rider to go into a
( oxygen etc. ) deficit and crack- going out the back ( dropped); remember,
most of the riders on the other team have no hope of winning the tour
overall, but they can by sacrificing themselves thus, help secure the
overall win for their team leader.

Laz

Quoted message said:

Hi all,

I've been loosely following the TdF (have been for several years now).
I understand the concept of drafting/echelon. To some extent, I
understand how a teammate can "help" another rider (via drafting).

HOWEVER, I am confused about some comments made during TdF coverage. I
was hoping someone could clear things up for me.

I don't understand how a team can 'help' one of their own riders (aside
from drafting, that is). Take Lance for example. I recall several
mountain finishes last year where he finished in one of the top spots
(his teammates were nowhere to be seen). But I remember commentary
indicating that <some teammate> really pulled through for Lance on the
ascent. ?? The teammate wasn't near Lance, so there was no drafting
benefit. How else can 'help' be provided?

A similar question...if one group of riders (presumably teammates)
decides to set a 'brutal' pace and breaks away from the peloton, what
prevents another strong rider from simply following at the back of the
new group? How can/does the 'team' drop the additional rider?

Pace setting is a big part of it. You'd be surprised how much harder
it is to be on the front setting a high pace than it is to follow it.
That said, it doesn't make a lot of difference if your GC contender
isn't better than those who are doing that job. Armstrong's team is
very strong and sets a brutal pace, spending themselves to the point
that when they drop off they are just mashing to pedals in granny gear
to keep going, until they recover some, at which time they just
finish.

The front guys also set a high pace to keep everyone tired enough that
they won't attack. If Discovery didn't keep that high pace there would
be breaks all over the place. No one else is going to lead with that
high pace because they aren't protecting the GC #1 spot, they are
after it.

They are also there to go after breaks if needed.

In your last question.... They can't drop the additional rider if he's
stronger.

David Ferguson says...

Quoted message said:

In your last question.... They can't drop the additional rider if he's
stronger.

Didn't Greg LeMond win twice without a team? Can that still be done?

Fred Barney said:

David Ferguson says...

Quoted message said:

In your last question.... They can't drop the additional rider if he's
stronger.

Didn't Greg LeMond win twice without a team? Can that still be done?

Not this year.

Fred Barney said:

David Ferguson says...

Quoted message said:

In your last question.... They can't drop the additional rider if he's
stronger.

Didn't Greg LeMond win twice without a team? Can that still be done?

Sure, but the danger is if you have a flat or mechanical there's
nobody to give you a bike or a wheel, and you can lose significant
time.

MT

Fred Barney said:

David Ferguson says...

Quoted message said:

In your last question.... They can't drop the additional rider if he's
stronger.

Didn't Greg LeMond win twice without a team? Can that still be done?

Yes, you can still do that. Armstrong probably could do it. But it's
harder.

D

David Ferguson said:

Quoted message said:

Didn't Greg LeMond win twice without a team? Can that still be done?

Michael Thomas said:

Sure, but the danger is if you have a flat or mechanical there's
nobody to give you a bike or a wheel, and you can lose significant
time.

According to one of our July newbies if LANCE has a flat everyone must
wait for his highness to rejoin before attacking or risk the "derision and
scorn of the entire cycling world for having violated such a sacred tenet
as to not take advantage of an opponent's misfortune".

Donald Munro <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

According to one of our July newbies if LANCE has a flat everyone must
wait for his highness to rejoin before attacking or risk the "derision and
scorn of the entire cycling world for having violated such a sacred tenet
as to not take advantage of an opponent's misfortune".

Dude, that was a troll. Nobody (even in July) is that stupid.

Quoted message said:

Hi all,

I've been loosely following the TdF (have been for several years now).
I understand the concept of drafting/echelon. To some extent, I
understand how a teammate can "help" another rider (via drafting).

HOWEVER, I am confused about some comments made during TdF coverage.
I was hoping someone could clear things up for me.

I don't understand how a team can 'help' one of their own riders
(aside from drafting, that is). Take Lance for example. I recall
several mountain finishes last year where he finished in one of the
top spots (his teammates were nowhere to be seen). But I remember
commentary indicating that <some teammate> really pulled through for
Lance on the ascent. ?? The teammate wasn't near Lance, so there
was no drafting benefit. How else can 'help' be provided?

<some teammate> was there earlier in the climb, working above what he could
sustain, setting the pace for Armstrong as long as he could.

Quoted message said:

A similar question...if one group of riders (presumably teammates)
decides to set a 'brutal' pace and breaks away from the peloton, what
prevents another strong rider from simply following at the back of the
new group? How can/does the 'team' drop the additional rider?

Usually not teammates - unless there's a very strong team. But if 4 guys on
different teams go off the front, then they may well work together to screw
over the guys who aren't with them. So for example Valverde or Rasmussen may
well be happy to work with Armstrong in a break, even though it doesn't get
them any closer to winning and helps Armstrong, because that break takes
them further away from the white jersey and 2nd/3rd place competition who
are further back.

You sprint to form the break, and only the riders near the front when you
attack can hope to catch you before you settle down into a steady pace; then
you hope that the guys near the front are too tired from climbing or chasing
down previous attacks (sprinting is hard) to catch on. Alternatively, you
can simply go fast enough that even with the drafting benefit (which depends
on the speed of the riders, i.e. it's pretty small on a steep climb) the
strong rider isn't strong enough and has to let go. If neither of those
work - then either work with the strong rider to get time on everyone else,
or if you can arrange it have your guys take turns attacking until the
strong guy gets tired chasing down attack after attack; of course you then
might find the strong guy goes with one of your guys, drops the group then
goes off into the distance. If you're on a steep climb and up against a guy
who is definitely stronger than anyone on your team, then that guy isn't
going to lose time if he doesn't want to.

Peter