question; if landis is cleared

Quoted message said:

if landis is cleared by the uci due to his defense, would you welcome
him as the tdf champion to start next years tdf ?

(meaning, as a fan of pro cycling, would you in your heart like to see
him start in yellow or would you be grumbling that he is the cheat that
got away ?)

to be honest, that even if he is cleared, I would most likely think the
latter...because, if innocent, you would say the test is wrong because
I did not cheat- instead of offering various explanations as to why the
test could be wrong as he did; he is just a cyclist, not a scientist,
why was he providing theories as to what caused his abnormal test
results ?

He HAS said the test is wrong, that he did not cheat. I consider him to
be the winner regardless of the outcome. I just don't trust the test.

--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall

If FDR fought fascism the way Bush fights terrorism, we'd all be
speaking German now.

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

if landis is cleared by the uci due to his defense, would you welcome
him as the tdf champion to start next years tdf ?

Yes, of course.

Quoted message said:

(meaning, as a fan of pro cycling, would you in your heart like to see
him start in yellow or would you be grumbling that he is the cheat that
got away ?)

Look, we now have a very serious problem with doping.

The problem is no longer that some riders take dope, although that is a
serious problem in itself. The much more serious problem is that some
organisations now have so much political investment in traducing as cheats
the champions of other organisations that we can no longer take at face
value any accusation of cheating. Landis is essentially collateral damage
in the struggle for power between the UCI and the ASO. If the UCI ever
were interested in the truth of the matter, they aren't now, partly
because if Landis were to be found not guilty it would leave ASO with a
potentially popular champion, and partly because they have done so much
harm with their unethical early leak of the allegation that there will be
real and serious consequences for the UCI as an organisation if Landis is
not found guilty.

Perhaps Landis cheated. If so, it is serious. But it is not nearly as
serious as Pat McQuaid's and [censored] Pound's efforts to destroy a rider in
order to win a political victory. Given that the water is now so muddy I
think we have very little choice but give Landis the benefit of the doubt.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
; gif ye hes forget our auld plane Scottis quhilk your mother lerit you,
; in tymes cuming I sall wryte to you my mind in Latin, for I am nocht
; acquyntit with your Southeron
;; Letter frae Ninian Winyet tae John Knox datit 27t October 1563

Simon Brooke said:

real and serious consequences for the UCI as an organisation if Landis is
not found guilty.

Hah!

--
E. Dronkert

Simon Brooke said:

Look, we now have a very serious problem with doping.

My take on it is: we now have a very serious problem with bad rules and
bad enforcement, and really really bad enforcers.

Quoted message said:

The problem is no longer that some riders take dope, although that is a
serious problem in itself. The much more serious problem is that some
organisations now have so much political investment in traducing as cheats
the champions of other organisations that we can no longer take at face
value any accusation of cheating.

Pound has needed ousting for a good long time, at least since the
Marion Jones affair.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps Landis cheated. If so, it is serious. But it is not nearly as
serious as Pat McQuaid's and [censored] Pound's efforts to destroy a rider in
order to win a political victory. Given that the water is now so muddy I
think we have very little choice but give Landis the benefit of the doubt.

"Give me a reader in here that can find this guy guilty!" --D-y

Quoted message said:

because, if innocent, you would say the test is wrong because
I did not cheat- instead of offering various explanations as to why the
test could be wrong as he did; he is just a cyclist, not a scientist,
why was he providing theories as to what caused his abnormal test
results ?

Caught in the glare of the media spotlight, with reporters hammering
away at you yelling "Did you cheat?", "You think the test is at
fault?", "If you didn't cheat why did the test come back positive?" and
so forth and so on - asking variations of the same question hundreds of
times - most people start to babble, and I think Landis did just that.

Subject to that kind of media scrutiny (media hounding?), with cameras
pointing at them and microphones in their faces, most folks are
uncomfortable saying "I don't know" and they're uncomfortable with
their own silence.

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

real and serious consequences for the UCI as an organisation if Landis is
not found guilty.

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Hah!

What's Hah in Dutch ? Flemish ?

Donald Munro said:

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

real and serious consequences for the UCI as an organisation if Landis is
not found guilty.

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Hah!

What's Hah in Dutch ? Flemish ?

"I believe it when I see it."

--
E. Dronkert

Quoted message said:

if landis is cleared by the uci due to his defense, would you welcome
him as the tdf champion to start next years tdf ?

Dumbass,

Why not? We've welcomed the dopers back every other year.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if landis is cleared by the uci due to his defense, would you welcome
him as the tdf champion to start next years tdf ?

Dumbass,

Why not? We've welcomed the dopers back every other year.

Who is "we"?

Carl Sundquist said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if landis is cleared by the uci due to his defense, would you welcome
him as the tdf champion to start next years tdf ?

Why not? We've welcomed the dopers back every other year.

Who is "we"?

And what did we do in the years inbetween?

--
E. Dronkert

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if landis is cleared by the uci due to his defense, would you welcome
him as the tdf champion to start next years tdf ?

Dumbass,

Why not? We've welcomed the dopers back every other year.

Why not every year ? Been spending too much time at the Deer Park ?

Raptor said:

Quoted message said:

if landis is cleared by the uci due to his defense, would you welcome
him as the tdf champion to start next years tdf ?

(meaning, as a fan of pro cycling, would you in your heart like to see
him start in yellow or would you be grumbling that he is the cheat that
got away ?)

to be honest, that even if he is cleared, I would most likely think the
latter...because, if innocent, you would say the test is wrong because
I did not cheat- instead of offering various explanations as to why the
test could be wrong as he did; he is just a cyclist, not a scientist,
why was he providing theories as to what caused his abnormal test
results ?

He HAS said the test is wrong, that he did not cheat. I consider him to
be the winner regardless of the outcome. I just don't trust the test.

Not only that, but the way the system works is once the B sample comes
back positive, there is a presumtion of guilt. The only way Landis can
clear his name is to show not only that the tests COULD have gone
wrong, but that the ACTUALLY did in his specific instance. I'm not
saying that's right or wrong, but that's the way it is.

I'm not convinced that current severe enforcement regime really
discourages doping. If a rider who is on the fence comes to believe
that he could get "caught" even if he doesn't dope, why should he NOT
dope? A mere allegation can severely damage or ruin a riders career,
even if is later shown to be false. In the rider's assessment, if the
risk of punishment is roughly the same whether he dopes or not, then
why pass up the possible rewards?

Quoted message said:

if landis is cleared by the uci due to his defense, would you welcome
him as the tdf champion to start next years tdf ?

(meaning, as a fan of pro cycling, would you in your heart like to see
him start in yellow or would you be grumbling that he is the cheat that
got away ?)

to be honest, that even if he is cleared, I would most likely think the
latter...because, if innocent, you would say the test is wrong because
I did not cheat- instead of offering various explanations as to why the
test could be wrong as he did; he is just a cyclist, not a scientist,
why was he providing theories as to what caused his abnormal test
results ?

Unfortunately, the domain

tdfu.com

has already been registered.

I would hope that an event is hosted in the good ole USA during the TdF
next year named the "TdFU" that US-born riders choose to attend instead
of participating in the Tour de France.

-bdbafh

bdbafh said:

Quoted message said:

if landis is cleared by the uci due to his defense, would you welcome
him as the tdf champion to start next years tdf ?

(meaning, as a fan of pro cycling, would you in your heart like to see
him start in yellow or would you be grumbling that he is the cheat that
got away ?)

to be honest, that even if he is cleared, I would most likely think the
latter...because, if innocent, you would say the test is wrong because
I did not cheat- instead of offering various explanations as to why the
test could be wrong as he did; he is just a cyclist, not a scientist,
why was he providing theories as to what caused his abnormal test
results ?

Unfortunately, the domain

tdfu.com

has already been registered.

You are out of luck with STFU.org and .com as well.

in message <[email hidden]>, bdbafh

(') said:

Quoted message said:

if landis is cleared by the uci due to his defense, would you welcome
him as the tdf champion to start next years tdf ?

(meaning, as a fan of pro cycling, would you in your heart like to see
him start in yellow or would you be grumbling that he is the cheat that
got away ?)

to be honest, that even if he is cleared, I would most likely think the
latter...because, if innocent, you would say the test is wrong because
I did not cheat- instead of offering various explanations as to why the
test could be wrong as he did; he is just a cyclist, not a scientist,
why was he providing theories as to what caused his abnormal test
results ?

Unfortunately, the domain

tdfu.com

has already been registered.

I would hope that an event is hosted in the good ole USA during the TdF
next year named the "TdFU" that US-born riders choose to attend instead
of participating in the Tour de France.

This is to go with your 'World Series' baseball and suchlike insular tosh,
I take it? I presume you chosen initials stand for 'the Tour of Failure
Unlimited'. The USA can't cope with life in the real world, so takes it's
ball home as usual.

You know, if US born riders did all storm off in a fit of pique, pro
cycling would scarcely notice.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I'm fed up with Life 1.0. I never liked it much and now it's getting
me down. I think I'll upgrade to MSLife 97 -- you know, the one that
comes in a flash new box and within weeks you're crawling with bugs.

in message <[email hidden]>, Tere

(') said:

In the rider's assessment, if the
risk of punishment is roughly the same whether he dopes or not, then
why pass up the possible rewards?

Absolutely. And that is [censored] Pound's great achievement. All hail [censored]
Pound!

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

:: Wisdom is better than weapons of war ::
:: Ecclesiastes 9:18 ::

Simon Brooke said:

You know, if US born riders did all storm off in a fit of pique, pro
cycling would scarcely notice.

I wonder if they'd mind taking Pound with them when they leave ? Perhaps
they could use him as a crash test dummy when practising gridiron football.

Carl Sundquist said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if landis is cleared by the uci due to his defense, would you welcome
him as the tdf champion to start next years tdf ?

Dumbass,

Why not? We've welcomed the dopers back every other year.

Who is "we"?

We are the world, we are the children. Robert and Ben are the resident
rbr experts on "we" and "our," so just ask them. LOL.

You are us. Resistance is futile - you will be assimilated. You
are RBR USA FRANCE CHIRAQ BUSH CLINTON ... BORG.

One big happy family we am.

Quoted message said:

You know, if US born riders did all storm off in a fit of pique, pro
cycling would scarcely notice.

Right. Unlike the Britts, without who pro cycling would collapse?

It would be interesting to come up with a list of countries which, if they
chose to boycott the pro tour, would seriously affect the event. Belgium,
Spain, Germany & Italy come to mind. Beyond that?

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, bdbafh

(') said:

Quoted message said:

if landis is cleared by the uci due to his defense, would you welcome
him as the tdf champion to start next years tdf ?

(meaning, as a fan of pro cycling, would you in your heart like to see
him start in yellow or would you be grumbling that he is the cheat that
got away ?)

to be honest, that even if he is cleared, I would most likely think the
latter...because, if innocent, you would say the test is wrong because
I did not cheat- instead of offering various explanations as to why the
test could be wrong as he did; he is just a cyclist, not a scientist,
why was he providing theories as to what caused his abnormal test
results ?

Unfortunately, the domain

tdfu.com

has already been registered.

I would hope that an event is hosted in the good ole USA during the TdF
next year named the "TdFU" that US-born riders choose to attend instead
of participating in the Tour de France.

This is to go with your 'World Series' baseball and suchlike insular tosh,
I take it? I presume you chosen initials stand for 'the Tour of Failure
Unlimited'. The USA can't cope with life in the real world, so takes it's
ball home as usual.

You know, if US born riders did all storm off in a fit of pique, pro
cycling would scarcely notice.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I'm fed up with Life 1.0. I never liked it much and now it's getting
me down. I think I'll upgrade to MSLife 97 -- you know, the one that
comes in a flash new box and within weeks you're crawling with bugs.