Question about Atkins Induction phase

Whenever I've done induction, I ignored that 3 cups part. I think it's a
leftover from the days before Atkins started counting 'net carbs'. Just eat
freely (within the 20 net carb limit) of the approved green veggies, and
you'll be fine.

--
Peace,
Pen
--
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"Bob Perez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm having trouble reconciling a couple of statements in the Atkins book
regarding Phase 1, Induction. There are 12 "Rules of Induction" laid out
(Avon paperback first edition, p. 122), one of which reads as follows:

"3. Eat no more than 20 grams a day of carbohydrate, most of which must

come

Quoted message said:

in the form of salad greens and other vegetables."

Clear enough, but what follows is confusing:

"You can eat approximately three cups -- loosely packed -- of salad, or

two

Quoted message said:

cups of salad plus one cup of other vegetables".

Of 20 grams, "most of which" must mean at least 11 grams. This means that
one needs to have at least 11 of the 20 grams consisting of some

combination

Quoted message said:

of salad greens and vegetables. Later it is explained that one must either
have no more than three cups of salad greens, or two cups of salad greens
and one cup of vegetables from the approved list on pages 125-126. So,
looking up romaine lettuce, for example, I find that it nets out at .4

carbs

Quoted message said:

per cup (p. 501). Most of the other salad vegetables are in the same

range.

Quoted message said:

How do I get 11 carbs out of salad greens when the most I can have of them
is 3 cups?

--
BP

"Penelope Baker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Whenever I've done induction, I ignored that 3 cups part. I think it's a
leftover from the days before Atkins started counting 'net carbs'. Just

eat

Quoted message said:

freely (within the 20 net carb limit) of the approved green veggies, and
you'll be fine.

I think you're right. With vegetables, subtracting out fiber makes such a
huge difference. With lettuce you can practically eat unlimited amounts if
you use net carbs. I also think that Atkins probably wanted to provide a
super-simple formula for the first two weeks that wouldn't involve counting
anything. It wasn't as accurate as actually counting carbs, but was good
enough to get people through induction. I suspect most people start
induction before they've read much of the book anyway. But that's another
issue.

HG

Bob Perez said:

How do I get 11 carbs out of salad greens when the most I can have
of them is 3 cups?

I've never limited my intake of green veggies. I don't count or
measure them. Three or more big salads a day is fine, it's the
dressings and add-ins you have to watch.

Sometmes, it can be difficult to read precisely what is in front of you.
Yes, I sometimes have that problem too.

"3. Eat no more than 20 grams a day of carbohydrate, most of which must come
in the form of salad greens and other vegetables."

This doesn't say "Most of which must come in the form of salid greens."
It says "... salad greens AND other vegetables"

There is no problem of making 20 grams of carbohydrate from salad
greens AND other vegetables. But, there is a problem with making all 20
grams from vegetable greens.

It doesn't say "Eat 20 grams .....", it says "Eat NO MORE THAN 20 grams..."

In reading what is actually in the book on this poinr, there is no
problem at all.

Jim
Jim

Bob Perez said:

I'm having trouble reconciling a couple of statements in the Atkins book
regarding Phase 1, Induction. There are 12 "Rules of Induction" laid out
(Avon paperback first edition, p. 122), one of which reads as follows:

"3. Eat no more than 20 grams a day of carbohydrate, most of which must come
in the form of salad greens and other vegetables."

Clear enough, but what follows is confusing:

"You can eat approximately three cups -- loosely packed -- of salad, or two
cups of salad plus one cup of other vegetables".

Of 20 grams, "most of which" must mean at least 11 grams. This means that
one needs to have at least 11 of the 20 grams consisting of some combination
of salad greens and vegetables. Later it is explained that one must either
have no more than three cups of salad greens, or two cups of salad greens
and one cup of vegetables from the approved list on pages 125-126. So,
looking up romaine lettuce, for example, I find that it nets out at .4 carbs
per cup (p. 501). Most of the other salad vegetables are in the same range.

How do I get 11 carbs out of salad greens when the most I can have of them
is 3 cups?

--
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Bob Perez said:

I'm having trouble reconciling a couple of statements in the Atkins book
regarding Phase 1, Induction. There are 12 "Rules of Induction" laid out
(Avon paperback first edition, p. 122), one of which reads as follows:

"3. Eat no more than 20 grams a day of carbohydrate, most of which must come
in the form of salad greens and other vegetables."

Note that it doesn't say 20 total or 20 net. You have selected 20 net.

Quoted message said:

Clear enough, but what follows is confusing:
"You can eat approximately three cups -- loosely packed -- of salad, or two
cups of salad plus one cup of other vegetables".

That approach gives 20 total. The cup guidleline predates fiber
deduction so it is obsolete for anyone who does a net count.

Quoted message said:

Of 20 grams, "most of which" must mean at least 11 grams. This
means that one needs to have at least 11 of the 20 grams
consisting of some combination of salad greens and vegetables.

Let's run the numbers to see why it's 11. *Everything* counts
against the initial 20 including stuff that claims zero on the
label but is actually rounded down from 0.5.

Cheese, cream and dairy - 3-4 ounces of cheese etc, 4.0
Two eggs at 0.6 each - 1.2. We're already at 5.2 just from that.
Decafe coffee - 0.5 rounded down to 0. 0.5. These incidentals
are very easy to get up to 5ish per day. I have taken up
starting my daily count at 5 rather than count the incidentals.
The non-veggie sources easily get near 10 if you have eggs and
dairy.

Quoted message said:

How do I get 11 carbs out of salad greens when the most I can have of them
is 3 cups?

By understanding that the cup guideline is obsolte if you chose net.

"Hannah Gruen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Penelope Baker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Whenever I've done induction, I ignored that 3 cups part. I think it's

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

leftover from the days before Atkins started counting 'net carbs'. Just

eat

Quoted message said:

freely (within the 20 net carb limit) of the approved green veggies, and
you'll be fine.

I think you're right. With vegetables, subtracting out fiber makes such a
huge difference. With lettuce you can practically eat unlimited amounts if
you use net carbs. I also think that Atkins probably wanted to provide a
super-simple formula for the first two weeks that wouldn't involve

counting

Quoted message said:

anything. It wasn't as accurate as actually counting carbs, but was good
enough to get people through induction. I suspect most people start
induction before they've read much of the book anyway. But that's another
issue.

HG

I am from the "old school" - before Net Carbs. I don't know, I have trouble
buying into it! Anyway - I found that if I ate too much salad I didn't lose.
I had to keeep it low. Maybe now that Net Carbs is the rule it won't matter
how much salad I eat - LOL!!

For OP - you can easily reach 20 carb grams eating the other veggies.
Mushrooms, asparagus, greenbeans - those are great on induction. I like to
sautee in shallots, lots of flavor but less carbs than onions. Chives are
good that way too.

I eat my 3 cups of green stuff. I limit to 1 salad a day and will have
veggies at dinner even if i ate 3 cups of salad. i'm losing slow but steady.
I pre-make salads in 3 cup containers at the beginning of the week then add
dressing and meat when I am ready to eat them. (Chicken, SAlmon, Tuna, Pork,
Steak - whatever is leftover)

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"jbuch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This doesn't say "Most of which must come in the form of salid greens."
It says "... salad greens AND other vegetables"

I considered your theory but rejected it based on the choice one is given
(referenced in my post) between having 3 cups of salad greens or 2 cups of
salad greens and one cup of vegetables. If one goes with the choice to have
3 cups of salad greens (my choice), I don't see how one could reach 11 grams
of carbs, so it didn't seem to me that this made sense. As you say, one must
read the whole in its entirety to make sense of it and that's where my
problem arose ...

Quoted message said:

There is no problem of making 20 grams of carbohydrate from salad
greens AND other vegetables. But, there is a problem with making all 20
grams from vegetable greens.

....as you point out in this statement.

Quoted message said:

In reading what is actually in the book on this poinr, there is no
problem at all.

Well, there is a logic problem, as you helped point out above. However, I'm
going to go with the analysis offered by Hannah and others, that ultimately
it's a non-issue. I wasn't trying to nitpick the book, it was an honest
question that came up as I attempted to reconcile having multiple salads in
the day, as I'd love to do (that would take me to "most" of my 20 net), with
the limitation that I not exceed 3 cups, "loosely packed". Introduction of
the net carb concept is part of the answer, and the rest is just an
unintended inconsistency based on a desire to simplify the rules to make
them easy to follow. I can accept that.

Thanks for the thoughtful responses, all. This looks like a great newsgroup.

BobP

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Well, there is a logic problem, as you helped point out above. However, I'm
going to go with the analysis offered by Hannah and others, that ultimately
it's a non-issue. I wasn't trying to nitpick the book, it was an honest
question that came up as I attempted to reconcile having multiple salads in
the day, as I'd love to do (that would take me to "most" of my 20 net), with
the limitation that I not exceed 3 cups, "loosely packed". Introduction of
the net carb concept is part of the answer, and the rest is just an
unintended inconsistency based on a desire to simplify the rules to make
them easy to follow. I can accept that.

Hi Bob, welcome to the group! As far as veggies go, during induction or
otherwise, I've found it to be more accurate to WEIGH most produce and figure out
the nutritional info based on THAT. Cups are really more for measuring VERY
pliable and/or gloppy stuff like flour or sour cream. Trying to fit most veggies
into cups is like trying to fit square pegs into round holes -- they just don't
fit and you are never sure how much you are REALLY getting. I've even started
weighing the cherry tomatoes that I put into salads because they can very quite a
bit in size (keeping in mind that I make up about 6 salads at once, so I weigh an
entire basket and THEN divide them into jars by weight. BTW, FoodSaver vacuum
sealers are GREAT in that respect -- I put salads into mason jars and then use
the mason jar sealing attachment to suck out the air.

--
Saffire
205/150/125 - 5'1.5"
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

"Saffire" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi Bob, welcome to the group!

Thanks!

Quoted message said:

As far as veggies go, during induction or
otherwise, I've found it to be more accurate to WEIGH most produce and

figure out

Quoted message said:

the nutritional info based on THAT. Cups are really more for measuring

VERY

Quoted message said:

pliable and/or gloppy stuff like flour or sour cream. Trying to fit most

veggies

Quoted message said:

into cups is like trying to fit square pegs into round holes -- they just

don't

Quoted message said:

fit and you are never sure how much you are REALLY getting.

Very much agreed. Unfortunately, most of the carb guides I've looked at
provide their data in this format. Which raises a good question: what's the
most useful carb counter in print that you've found? Same question for
online.

Thanks for your suggestions.

--
Bob Perez

Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, experience usually comes
from bad judgment.

Bob Perez said:

what's the most useful carb counter in print that you've found?

When I wanted a carb counter book, I went to a bookstore and
compared the ones I found there. There were several and the
exact ones vary over time. Page through them looking for foods
you are interested in eating. The book that lists the most of
the foods you're interested in is the one you should buy. Some
have more prepared foods and less fresh ones, some are the
other way around.

Quoted message said:

Same question for online.

The USDA site.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Very much agreed. Unfortunately, most of the carb guides I've looked at
provide their data in this format. Which raises a good question: what's the
most useful carb counter in print that you've found? Same question for
online.

I don't use anything in print. I use either Fitday.com or the USDA nutritional
info database (I downloaded their db & program, but they can be found at
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/. But then, I keep my OWN DB and
spreadsheet in Excel to keep track of what I'm eating -- I use Fitday or the USDA
info to add to my own DB. If Fitday doesn't have the measurement category I
want, I'll use the USDA one. Their program on my own PC allows me to specify 28
grams, for instance, which equates to 1 oz. It CAN be frustrating to not be able
to find a usable or reliable measurement type. For instance, what is one "medium
spear" of asparagus? Do they count the part on the bottom that most people cut
off? Where is the cutoff between medium, thin and extra large? Bah! I cut off
the bottoms and just WEIGH them. I've even started to weigh avocado meat --
turns out I was WAY overcounting the calories and carbs based on the size of the
avocado.

--
Saffire
205/150/125 - 5'1.5"
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

[1] there's often some carbs in the salad dressing, even if you use lemon juice.
there's 9g of carbs per lemon.

[2] throw in some Italian herb mix into your salad to avoid leg cramps.

[3] welcome to the group!

Bob Perez said:

How do I get 11 carbs out of salad greens when the most I can have of them
is 3 cups?