Query about Etiquette

It is etiquette, not mandatory ethically or morally.

"Roy Zipris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
| What do you do when. . . ? Here are the basic facts.
|
||
| Most cyclists I come across around here make it a point to
| stop and offer help, and that's one of the aspects of cycling--
| that sense of shared community--that I value. What do you
| folks think? --Roy Zipris

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Roy Zipris
What do you do when. . . ? Here are the basic facts.

My query: how do other people here see the etiquette
involved? On a large group ride, must someone stop and help?
If you offer to help, are you obligated to stay even when
the problem gets out-of-hand? If there's another person also
helping, can you then take off?

Frankly, I'm a bit conflicted, as they say. On one hand, I
somewhat selfishly feel deprived (although, I admit, it was
at my own instigation--I neither had to volunteer to ride
sweep nor to stop to help the flatted rider). But on the
other hand, I believe that riders in a group have some basic
obligations to each other and to the group; it also would
not have been safe (considering traffic conditions and
waning daylight) or courteous to have left the rider on her
own. Even considering that another rider came to help, I
didn't feel that, having stopped to help, I could then leave
the two of them to the task.

Most cyclists I come across around here make it a point to
stop and offer help, and that's one of the aspects of cycling--
that sense of shared community--that I value. What do you
folks think? --Roy Zipris

Proper etiquette would have been to stay with the broken down rider as long as they needed or wanted help. In my personal experience I would have told you to continue without me so I didn't ruin your ride but for a newbe they may have felt much better if someone stayed to assist. Many people like riding on club rides for the safety in numbers thing and they rely on the group for directions and help in break downs. Thats why I think you should have stayed, since you volunteered.

In the club rides in my area the rides are rated (A,B,C,D), the more aggresive rides (A,B) dictate that you must be able to fix your own flats and follow a map while the easier rides (C,D) always ensure that nobody gets left behind.

Dan Ballagh

On 21 Apr 2004 05:12:30 -0700, [email hidden] (Roy Zipris) wrote:

<What do you do when. . . ? Here are the basic facts. snip
<we had to head back prematurely. Instead of the hard 25
miles I had <hoped for, we did 12.5. < <My query: how do
other people here see the etiquette involved? On a <large
group ride, must someone stop and help? If you offer to
help, <are you obligated to stay even when the problem gets
out-of-hand? If <there's another person also helping, can
you then take off?

<Frankly, I'm a bit conflicted, as they say. On one hand,
I somewhat

You lost 12 miles of your ride, around 45 minutes. If you
could have done the tube change in 15-20m, then the three of
you would have had a challenge not a short ride.

<selfishly feel deprived (although, I admit, it was at my
own <instigation--I neither had to volunteer to ride sweep
nor to stop to <help the flatted rider). But on the other
hand, I believe that riders <in a group have some basic
obligations to each other and to the group; <it also would
not have been safe (considering traffic conditions and
<waning daylight) or courteous to have left the rider on her
own. Even <considering that another rider came to help, I
didn't feel that, <having stopped to help, I could then
leave the two of them to the <task. < <Most cyclists I come
across around here make it a point to stop and <offer help,
and that's one of the aspects of cycling--that sense of
<shared community--that I value. What do you folks think?
--Roy Zipris

When I go on a group ride, I expect to ride with a group but
it only partially works out that way. In the early season,
some riders drop off the back. As the season progresses,
many shoot off the front. Some leave with others, it's a
hoot to watch the interactoins. Some folks don't know how to
change a tire but they have a cell phone with them and are
prepared to use it.

If I'm the rider with the flat, I don't need your help, but
by you stopping, we get to ride in together. And if there
are three of us, it's even better. I'd feel bad if the
whole group stopped but dissapointed if no one did. When I
ride group, I actually expect to stop and to be "waited
on"... why else would I go on a group ride? ...and I like
riding with like-thinking folks. The twelve miles you
"lost" can easily be made up at a later date, if you expand
your time horizon.

Roy Zipris said:

What do you do when. . . ? Here are the basic facts.

I ride with a recreational bike club--that is, serious but
not necessarily racers. Although I got out as much as this
past SE Pennsylvania winter allowed, the rides weren't
very challenging for conditioning, and I have been looking
forward to getting in some real mileage to push myself a
bit. Besides my longer weekend rides, I also enjoy the
club's twice-weekly rides that just began earlier this
month, with Daylight Saving Time.

Tuesday night at 6pm, a group of 17 went out at a
projected 14-16 mph pace, expecting to do about 25 miles
before darkness reined us in. Because of the size of the
group, the leader asked for someone to ride in the back
and let him know if everyone makes it through lights, and
I volunteered. About 6 miles into the ride, someone
flatted. Another rider and I helped to change the flat but
we had a terrible time getting the wheel back on the bike
and as a result of the long delay, we had to head back
prematurely. Instead of the hard 25 miles I had hoped for,
we did 12.5.

My query: how do other people here see the etiquette
involved? On a large group ride, must someone stop and
help? If you offer to help, are you obligated to stay even
when the problem gets out-of-hand? If there's another
person also helping, can you then take off?

Frankly, I'm a bit conflicted, as they say. On one hand, I
somewhat selfishly feel deprived (although, I admit, it
was at my own instigation--I neither had to volunteer to
ride sweep nor to stop to help the flatted rider). But on
the other hand, I believe that riders in a group have some
basic obligations to each other and to the group; it also
would not have been safe (considering traffic conditions
and waning daylight) or courteous to have left the rider
on her own. Even considering that another rider came to
help, I didn't feel that, having stopped to help, I could
then leave the two of them to the task.

Most cyclists I come across around here make it a point to
stop and offer help, and that's one of the aspects of cycling--
that sense of shared community--that I value. What do you
folks think? --Roy Zipris

Ditto.

In most groups I've ridden with, the *stronger* riders
volunteer to ride "sweep" or whatever. The strongest riders
in a group are usually not being deprived of anything anyway
-- they're stronger because they've been doing more riding
elsewhere, and get their workouts on slower group rides by
moving up and back. They shouldn't deprive folks like you of
a relatively (for you) more productive ride. But that's
life. Some groups are very magnanimous, others are full of
selfish pinheads.

In our local club, no one would be left behind, and
certainly not like that. I got lost/dropped one day, and my
phone was ringing within 20 minutes (most of us carry
phones). In the MTB group I used to ride with, the strongest
couple of riders would be first to the tops of the hills,
then descend to check on everyone, and offer encouragement
to those struggling at the rear.

However, what goes around, comes around. Your karma is
higher for doing what you did, and you'll be repaid one way
or another.

Matt O.

[email hidden] (Roy Zipris) wrote in news:9d828b4.0404210412.6a649566
@posting.google.com:

Quoted message said:

My query: how do other people here see the etiquette
involved? On a large group ride, must someone stop and
help? If you offer to help, are you obligated to stay even
when the problem gets out-of-hand? If there's another
person also helping, can you then take off?

If you volunteered to sweep, you should stay with problem
rider until the problem is fixed or they get help elsewhere
(e.g., a pay phone). Even if you didn't volunteer to sweep,
the courteous thing to do would be to ask the other person
if they'd like you to stay with them. They may accept or
decline. Abandonding a person who wants help is not cool.

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Roy Zipris) said:

What do you do when. . . ? Here are the basic facts.

I ride with a recreational bike club--that is, serious but
not necessarily racers.

Quoted message said:

Tuesday night at 6pm, a group of 17 went out at a
projected 14-16 mph pace, expecting to do about 25 miles
before darkness reined us in. Because of the size of the
group, the leader asked for someone to ride in the back
and let him know if everyone makes it through lights, and
I volunteered. About 6 miles into the ride, someone
flatted. Another rider and I helped to change the flat but
we had a terrible time getting the wheel back on the bike
and as a result of the long delay, we had to head back
prematurely. Instead of the hard 25 miles I had hoped for,
we did 12.5.

My query: how do other people here see the etiquette
involved? On a large group ride, must someone stop
and help?

This is the sort of thing that should be figured out before
the ride goes, and probably varies from ride to ride. The
fact that your ride had a sweep indicates that it was meant
as a "nobody gets dropped" kind of ride. In my opinion, that
means that everybody (and 17 is not a big group) stops when
there is a flat or minor mechanical. My club has an 80 km
"easy spin" ride (pace around 30 km/h) and the rule of thumb
is that we wait for these things.

In practice, I had a flat one time and then looked down to
discover a broken spoke after I fixed the flat. I told the
group (which was waiting) to go on and I abandoned (this was
about 10 km in, so I just turned back and rode slowly to the
start point).

The bonus to this is that if you have 17 cyclists waiting
for one flat to be fixed, one takes the new tube and
inflates it, one checks the tire for the cut point, and if
you're having problems getting the new tire on, there are
always more experienced or stronger hands with extra tire
levers (and motivation to get the job done: otherwise the
group doesn't go).

Quoted message said:

Frankly, I'm a bit conflicted, as they say. On one hand, I
somewhat selfishly feel deprived (although, I admit, it
was at my own instigation--I neither had to volunteer to
ride sweep nor to stop to help the flatted rider). But on
the other hand, I believe that riders in a group have some
basic obligations to each other and to the group; it also
would not have been safe (considering traffic conditions
and waning daylight) or courteous to have left the rider
on her own. Even considering that another rider came to
help, I didn't feel that, having stopped to help, I could
then leave the two of them to the task.

Again, the attitude is ride-specific. If you're on a "no
wimps, no waiting" race-training kind of ride, it's simply
expected that the group will break up as things go on. I
rode the Pacific Populaire, a local and popular 100 km ride.
Everybody sets their own pace and groupings, so I just held
on to the lead group as long as I could until they dropped
me, 96 km in. A co-worker and club-mate on that ride had two
flats, and was dropped rather sooner.

I would say that a ride with a sweep, and especially one
with only 17 people in the group, should probably have a
wait-and-fix policy for minor mechanicals. I also think
that in most cases, if you are the one with the mechanical
and it becomes clear that it's going to be a mess and you
will either be a long time fixing, the bike will be only
marginally rideable when fixed, or it is unrideable, the
victim should declare that they are abandoning. The only
exception might be if the bike was unrideable and easy
transportation unfeasible, in which case the group has to
figure out a solution, even if it just means riding to the
nearest town and summoning a taxi.

All bets are off for medical situations of course, but then
it's hardly a matter of etiquette, then it's a moral issue
(and presumably not the morality of "devil take the
hindmost" 🙂.

In another case, I was riding with a friend, helping her
catch up to that same Saturday ride (I knew they would wait
at the next muster point, not far off), when a mishap
befell and we ran into each other. She was scraped and hurt
in the accident. We asked the next cyclists by to report to
the group, and declare our intention to abandon. We made
sure she was okay, and found that the bike was still
rideable, so after some first aid, we made our way back to
the start very slowly. As it was, a small group of the
riders came back to double-check on us, but we assured them
all was okay at that point.

Like I say, I think "friendly" rides have an obligation to
be friendly and wait for flats, but when a repair becomes
major, the victim should have the good grace to let everyone
else ride on. Most importantly, this is a great thing to
know _before_ the ride starts. Our goofy little Saturday
ride, as casual as anything going, has a page of rules,
starting with rule 1: Nobody gets dropped. It's a really
friendly ride, so we also have rules that say that veterans
of the ride should carry extra food, extra water, extra
tubes, etc. and be prepared to share them with unprepared
newbies. We even have an example of why in that rule sheet:
one day a young rider showed up for the easy spin, and he
wasn't really prepared for it. If the group hadn't made sure
he had help up the hills, made sure they gave him food and
kept his hydration level up, he would have bonked, been
dropped, dehydrated, or all three. As it was, he stayed with
the group.

Today that same rider is a Cat 1 member of the fastest team
in the province. So it was worth making his intro to road
cycling friendly.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
sfu.cawiredcolaOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

(Roy Zipris) said:

My query: how do other people here see the etiquette
involved? On a large group ride, must someone stop and
help? If you offer to help, are you obligated to stay even
when the problem gets out-of-hand?

I stop and help even if it's not a group ride. <G> That
means if I encounter a broken down cyclist, I offer to help.
I may ride a bit less that night, but I've made friends and
helped others to actually finish their ride.

Barry

Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:09:21 GMT,
<[email hidden]>, B a r r y

Quoted message said:

That means if I encounter a broken down cyclist, I offer to
help. I may ride a bit less that night, but I've made
friends and helped others to actually finish their ride.

My new frame pump, after a fiddlyfuk head conversion, can be
made to fit those *other* kind of valves.

The majority of persons I've encountered needing that
kind of assistance are generally using those *other* kind
of valves.
--
zk

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Roy Zipris)

wrote in part:

---details snipped for brevity---

Quoted message said:

On one hand, I somewhat selfishly feel deprived
(although, I admit, it was at my own instigation--I
neither had to volunteer to ride sweep nor to stop to
help the flatted rider). But on the other hand, I believe
that riders in a group have some basic obligations to
each other and to the group; it also would not have been
safe (considering traffic conditions and waning daylight)
or courteous to have left the rider on her own. Even
considering that another rider came to help, I didn't
feel that, having stopped to help, I could then leave the
two of them to the task.

---more snipped--

Quoted message said:

What do you folks think? --Roy Zipris

I think what you did was exactly the right thing even if
you hadn't volunteered to sweep. That you volunteered
obligated you further. Had you ridden off when the second
rider stopped to help, care to guess what their
conversation would be about after you'd left? <g> You'll
make up the lost miles later.

Regards, Bob Hunt