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In article said:Having visited a podiatrist to be fitted with inserts for flat feet, I was also referred to a
sports physician. He has recommended some quad strengthening exercises. I had an anterior crucitae
ligament op about 10 years ago and he reckons my quads have been weak since then. Apparently this
is causing the knee pain by not preventing my knee joints rubbing together.
He has recommended a daily dose of 3 x 15 ski sits against a wall, 3 x 15 single leg squats and
every other day an exercise using a swiss ball where you sit on the ball with legs at 90 degrees
and roll forward until your knees are over your toes and then roll back.
He said I should increase reps by 10% weekly as the exercise starts to get easier and that I
should notice a difference in 3 weeks with real changes in 6 weeks.
What seemed odd to me was the principle of training on a daily basis which goes against most of
what I thought was good practise. I always thought that a muscle group should be rested for a day
or two to allow it to repair before exercising again. Does anyone have any thoughts on the
exercise programme I have been given? Has anyone done anythng similar and if so what kind of
results did you get?
These posts may be of some help to you. Two pictures on how to roll out the quads or ITB.
mindfulness.comof5.aspOpen ↗
In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
Clinic, est. 1975
Mindful Running: mindfulness.commr.aspOpen ↗ faqs.orgrunning faqOpen ↗
Some previous posts that might be of help in your thinking about your knee, which most often than
not is caused by the quads or the hamstrings being too tight.
Post #1
Quoted message said:Hi, I am looking for a bit of advice, I have recently started to increase my mileage (outdoors,
mostly on road) and in the last month or so my right knee has started to give me grief after
running. Its a generally feeling of stiffness, slight discomfort not localized in any particular
place but across the whole knee. It is particularly noticeable when going down stairs. It doesn't
give me any problems when running but a couple of hours after/next day it seems to stiffen up.
From what i've read it seems to be "runners knee", I think I roll my right foot more than the left
but whether that is the root cause I am not sure. I have read some of Ozzie's posts on this or
similar, (Sept 1st on rolling pins and facia release) and that is a long term cure/relief, what I
was wonder is what I should do now?
Stop running for a couple of weeks. Cut down on my running. Only run on soft surfaces or
treadmills. Wear a (neoprene) knee support. Seek medical advice. or none of the above.
Any advice or help would be gratefully received.
Neil Riddoch
Neil,
The rolling of the quads or massaging them is extremely helpful in loosening the quad muscle so that
it can relax and release. Once that happens, the muscles relaxes and takes the pressure off the
tendon which then takes the pressure off the knee.
As I've mentioned in other posts, during a training run, I may stop 6 to 10 times to keep loosening
the quads or hamstrings.
Freeing the quads and working on the hamstring by using the edge of a chair on them or sitting on a
tennis ball or later a baseball as a way to accupressure the hamstrings will do more for the release
of tendons around the knee.
Remember muscles relax and contract. If they only partially relax, then the tendon has to take up
that tension. Tendons can stretch but they're not suppose to. It's the muscles that relax and
contract. Loosen that which is suppose to relax and unnecessary tension to the tendon disappears.
If you are hitting on the back of the heel of the shoe as you run, as in heel striker, then you are
giving your joints a beating. We're back to lifting the knees and marching in place to see what
running is about. If you are lifting your center of gravity with each step more than is needed, then
you are coming back down to earth with a rather hard jar to the knees. If you are landing on the
back of the heel of the shoe, they your running is a deceleration with each step because of the
overstride. Overstride defined as your foot is landing in front of your center of gravity.
Don't know how much running you're doing so don't know if it's about cutting down. Practice lifting
the knees as in marching in place and lean from the ankle. Land softly ball then heel. As soon as
the heel touches that triggers the lifting of the other knee. The transition means you don't have to
jump up and down with each step.
I'm for running on uneven ground so as to get the foot/ankle and leg able to do what they're suppose
to do, adjust. I have an article somewhere that talks about FSOS (Flat Surface Overuse Syndrome)
We'll be watching as you play with finding out what works for you. As mentioned many times. My stuff
is folklore. If it works for you, use
it. If it doesn't don't give it any (read: ZERO) energy and find someone that does make sense and
whose folklore works for you. And when you find that, come back and share it with me and the
others so that we can educate ourselves better. And finally when you can't find any good
folklore, create what works for you and then share it back here at rec.running for all of us to
play with and test and experiment with.
Post #2
Jerry Freedman said:I wrote here a few weeks ago. I had just started running and had a bad cramp in on calf(soleus)
and achilles tendinitis in the other. Ozzie replied (thanks again)along with others who pointed me
to Ozzie's stuff. I took a few weeks off, did all the stretches, the marching exercises, the
"stirrup" squat and started back running (quietly). The good news is that my calf problems are
gone. Even with the running my AT gets better everyday. The question I have is about my quads. To
run quietly ( as recommended) with a ball heel strike I find I have to maintain a sort of crouch.
This is very hard on my quads. I am doing 2 minutes run/1 minute walk for 20 minutes and my quads
can barely take it. Is this something I work through? Is it a technique problem? I already lift
weights including squats and deadlifts..
Jerry Freedman
Jerry,
The second picture at mindfulness.comof5.aspOpen ↗ where the people are on hands and feet with
the quads across the lower railing of a hand rail would be a way to massage out the quads. You can
use a rolling pin on the ground or a piece of PVC, inch and a half or two inch. Most of the weight
is on the forearms and toes and knees. Gradually you allow the railing/rolling pin/PVC to sink into
the quads as you relax and allow the quads to let go but taking weight off the forearms and toes and
knees. Do it lovingly and gradually.
Then you can begin to roll forward or backward to work the quads loose always keeping most of the
weight on the feet, knees and forearms/hands. Also continue to breathe and keep the face and
shoulders relaxed otherwise you're transferring the tension from one part of your body to another.
The various techniques of breathing used in helping women prepare for the birthing process follow
the same idea of keeping the body relaxed completely.
Regarding loosening up the hamstrings to release the quads more, here's a piece from a
previous post:
When sprinting, the quads(antagonists) get overstretched by the hamstrings and gluts (agonists). I
think I read in John Jesse that hams and/or gluts account for 55% of the forward thrust when
sprinting. As they contract to catapult the body forward, the quads and the illiopsoas are suppose
to be relaxing and stretching to their max. But if one's posture is prone to slouching, then the
psoas is shortened and when overstretched as happens in sprinting, it contracts or tightens to
protect itself. That tightening when joined by the Illiacus is deep and often one feels it in the
origin of the illiacus at the top of the illiac crest of the pelvis. It may be the symptom of the
hamstrings having also tightened because they were strained because the quads only partially relaxed
when they quads were to have been totally relaxed.
So. Get two baseballs. Or more gently start with two tennis balls.
Sit on a chair and let the tennis balls rest in the middle of the hamstring. Or you can go up toward
the sitz bones of the pelvis and roll across the tennis balls by moving your body side to side over
the tennis balls. Up toward the sitz bones you'll feel yourself going over tendons, feels like going
over pieces of rope. Just sitting on the tennis balls can act almost like an accupressure which can
let the muscle's tight spot or trigger point relax.
If you want to see how tight one of the hams is, sit on the EDGE of the chair. One leg has the foot
on the ground with the foot under the knee, as most of of sit anyway. The other leg is out straight
resting on the heel. Close to a 45 degree angle between the ground and the leg. Stay slouched and
lift up that straightened leg. Now sit up straight so that you are sitting on your sitz bones and
the body is erect. Now lift up your leg and you'll see that it's harder to lift up the leg because
the lifting muscle illiopsoas has to now work against your hamstring which has been stretched by you
sitting up straight.
So work on the hamstrings and loosen them by massage with the tennis balls and them gradually go to
the baseballs.
Also practice sitting up a quarter of an inch straighter during your day. Remind yourself to do it
ten times a day and know that it will only last 20 to 30 seconds each time. This way you're not
straining the hams or the psoas and gradually you'll elongate those muscles. But they're much easier
to elongate if you're doing the rolling with the tennis and/or baseballs when you're sitting at your
desk at your computer. Sit in a chair which has no back and no arms, so that you are practicing the
erect posture of a good runner. Gradually as you stretch the hams, and psoas by good posture, it
will effect your running so that the tone of the quads, hams and gluts will be such that their range
of motion doesn't restrict the range of motion of the agonist muscle group(s).
Let us know how you continue to progress.
Ozzie
In article <[email hidden]>, Wawa
Quoted message said:"Peter Ashby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:In article <[email hidden]>, "Wawa"
Quoted message said:My problem is that after about 20-30 mins, my knees start to get stiff
and
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:lock up. Then by 1 hr 40, they are really quite painful, and if I squat down, I can feel how
tight they are because I can only just bend them completely. I don't want to do myself any
permament damage, so I want
to
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:know if this is likely to ease up, or if there are any regular stretches
or
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:supplements that I can use to stop the problem. I already have a decent pair of running shoes
which are only 2 months old.
This could indicate a number of things, including fluid buildup in the knee. I would recommend
you cease the long distances for a while. Try doing a few much shorter runs more often, for a
few weeks and then try gradually increasing the distance again. Also if you can stick to softer
tow paths or parks that might help too. If the knees continue to be bad I would get your GP to
refer you to a physio for further investigation.
I have sent an entry in to the marathon, and if I don't increase my time by 10 mins a week, I
won't be ready! I am very busy with uni work, pub work, squash and golf, so don't have time to do
any shorter runs during the week. Are there no stretches that I could do to strenghen the knee?
Quoted message said:By decent shoes, do you mean ones bought in a running shop or a pair of 'trainers'? Some
manufacturers do two versions of shoes, a street and a runners. The street pair may have
different colours in the midsole whereas the running shoe will have different materials there
for shock absorption. So the difference between the two can be quite large.
I have a pair of proper ladies running shoes, Asics Gel.
Quoted message said:Peter
--
Peter Ashby Wellcome Trust Biocentre University of Dundee, Scotland Reverse the Spam and remove
to email me.
