Pull-Ups vs. Bench Press formula

In article <[email hidden]>,

David Cohen said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

David Cohen said:

David wrote:
> "David Cohen" <[email hidden]> wrote
> > [email hidden] wrote:
> > > Im 180lbs and can bench quite a bit (I use a bowflex so I dont know
> > > exactly how much it is in free weights), but oddly enough, I cant
> > > even
> > > do a single pull-up.
> > >
> > > Isnt Bench Pressing and Pull-ups primarily using the same muscle
> > > (tricept)? Why are pull-ups so much harder? Anyone else
> > > experience
> > > this?
> >
> > Your knowledge of anatomy is, to say the least, lacking. Please go to
> > www.exrx.net and review the exercises and the muscle groups that they
> > use. That site will provide you with an eye-opening education.
> >
> > Study it for a few days, come back, and say thank you.
>
> Thank you??? Since when?? I read the rules that [censored] keeps trotting
> out - Rule#4 subsection 3C "at mfw good manners is a liability:"
> Has that changed now?

Yes, it has, thank you very much. So, if you wouldn't mind, please be
polite and kind at all times, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, thank
you.

Have a nice day.

Are you thinking of moving to Canada?

Thank you for that kind thought, but I believe, if you don't mind me saying
so, that I have moved beyond Canadian nice. Into sort of a Twilight Zone Of
Nice. A Land of Shadow And Substance. Of Things And Ideas. At The Signpost
Up Ahead, Your Next Stop, The Nice Twilight Zone.

Bleedin' mad, if you ask me.

:^)

--
Keith

Hobbes said:

JMW said:

Hobbes said:

Jeff Finlayson <[email hidden]> wrote:
> jeff wrote:
>
> >>Isnt Bench Pressing and Pull-ups primarily using the same muscle
> >> (tricept)? No
> >
> > I am surprised by how many people do not know that muscles only contract
> > or
> > relax. Bench pressing is a pushing motion; Pull-ups are a pulling
> > motion.
> > Therefore they cannot both use the same muscles. When you curl/bend
> > your
> > arm, you use the bicep, when you straighten your arm you use your
> > tricep.
> > (not spelled "tricept" although many mispronounce it that way)
>
> That's largely true. But the long head of the tricep crosses the
> shoulder.
> It does have some involvement in pulldown/pullover movements.

Right. Also they work together to create movement at the joint. So a
highly skilled bench presser inhibits activation of the antogonists, for
example. So there is an element of 'involvement' in terms of inhibition.

However, in terms of ballistic lifting, which you now lean toward,
concurrent training of antagonists has been found beneficial to
development of power.

I'm not sure what you mean, John. Are you referring to 'balance' - ie.
training the row to assist the bench? If so, is the antogonistic
movement also done ballistically? I hate asking, but are you referencing
a particular study? I haven't come across this, to be honest.

I've seen studies where they find as motor skills increase in a simple,
single joint movement antagonist activation decreases. I've also heard
from speculation by some pretty qualified people that this skill also
occurs in complex movements. And there is one study on the power clean
that appears to support this position.

I have to admit - I can see someone supporting this with the bench
press, but I might question cause and effect. The reality is the back
muscles are quite strongly involved in both stablization and driving off
the chest. So I'm not sure it is the antogonist 'balance' which helps
power in the bench as much as having strong and large lats to drive off
the chest.

Your thoughts?

I was specifically referring to power movements, i.e., strength +
speed, as opposed to only strength movements; naturally, this is more
important in more ballistic lifts, such as Olympic lifting. The study
I reference used bench press "throws" to determine power, and its
findings were as follows:

"Although the power output for the Con [agonist training only] group
remained unaltered between test occasions, the significant 4.7%
increase for the Antag [agonist-antagonist training] group indicates
that a strategy of alternating agonist and antagonist muscle exercises
may acutely increase power output during complex power training."
The agonist-anatagonist group trained "prone bench pulls," i.e.,
belly-down rows on a high bench, in addition to training bench press.

Baker D, Newton RU. Acute effect on power output of alternating an
agonist and antagonist muscle exercise during complex training.
J Strength Cond Res. 2005 Feb;19(1):202-5.

--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

David Cohen said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"David Cohen" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> David wrote:
> > "David Cohen" <[email hidden]> wrote
> > > [email hidden] wrote:
> > > > Im 180lbs and can bench quite a bit (I use a bowflex so I dont
> > > > know
> > > > exactly how much it is in free weights), but oddly enough, I
> > > > cant
> > > > even
> > > > do a single pull-up.
> > > >
> > > > Isnt Bench Pressing and Pull-ups primarily using the same muscle
> > > > (tricept)? Why are pull-ups so much harder? Anyone else
> > > > experience
> > > > this?
> > >
> > > Your knowledge of anatomy is, to say the least, lacking. Please go
> > > to
> > > www.exrx.net and review the exercises and the muscle groups that
> > > they
> > > use. That site will provide you with an eye-opening education.
> > >
> > > Study it for a few days, come back, and say thank you.
> >
> > Thank you??? Since when?? I read the rules that [censored] keeps
> > trotting
> > out - Rule#4 subsection 3C "at mfw good manners is a liability:"
> > Has that changed now?
>
> Yes, it has, thank you very much. So, if you wouldn't mind, please be
> polite and kind at all times, if it wouldn't be too much trouble,
> thank
> you.
>
> Have a nice day.

Are you thinking of moving to Canada?

Thank you for that kind thought, but I believe, if you don't mind me
saying
so, that I have moved beyond Canadian nice. Into sort of a Twilight Zone
Of
Nice. A Land of Shadow And Substance. Of Things And Ideas. At The
Signpost
Up Ahead, Your Next Stop, The Nice Twilight Zone.

Bleedin' mad, if you ask me.

:^)

Excessive niceness can do that.

David

In article <[email hidden]>,

David Cohen said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you thinking of moving to Canada?

Thank you for that kind thought, but I believe, if you don't mind me saying
so, that I have moved beyond Canadian nice. Into sort of a Twilight Zone Of
Nice. A Land of Shadow And Substance. Of Things And Ideas. At The Signpost
Up Ahead, Your Next Stop, The Nice Twilight Zone.

Oh, Minnesota Nice.

Welcome, neighbor.

Seth
--
There's no amount of rudeness in the world that can not be cured by the
judicious application of extreme violence. -- Roland Lee

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Im 180lbs and can bench quite a bit (I use a bowflex so I dont know
exactly how much it is in free weights),

About 8 lbs, 3 ounces.

Quoted message said:

but oddly enough, I cant even
do a single pull-up.

Try real training.

Quoted message said:

Isnt Bench Pressing and Pull-ups primarily using the same muscle
(tricept)?

No.

Quoted message said:

Why are pull-ups so much harder?

For one thing, they use almost your full bodyweight.

Seth
--
Who cares? Shut up and lift. -- Watson (the pencil neck) Davis

"Seth Breidbart" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

David Cohen said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you thinking of moving to Canada?

Thank you for that kind thought, but I believe, if you don't mind me
saying
so, that I have moved beyond Canadian nice. Into sort of a Twilight Zone
Of
Nice. A Land of Shadow And Substance. Of Things And Ideas. At The Signpost
Up Ahead, Your Next Stop, The Nice Twilight Zone.

Oh, Minnesota Nice.

"I ain't got time to bleed!!"

Quoted message said:

Welcome, neighbor.

That is SUCH a nice thing to say, thank you very much, indeed.

David