protour making its mark

gf said:

look at the great thriling races at flanders and wevelgem....guys
limping in in groups minutes apart with solo winners. no more

sittting

Quoted message said:

around for 6 hours looking at each other with 50 guys arriving at the
last climb..hopefully the rebellin formula for victory is dead and
gone. roubaix should be epic in the muck sunday.

So, exactly how did the ProTour make the racing better?

Scott said:

gf said:

look at the great thriling races at flanders and wevelgem....guys
limping in in groups minutes apart with solo winners. no more

sittting

Quoted message said:

around for 6 hours looking at each other with 50 guys arriving at

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

last climb..hopefully the rebellin formula for victory is dead and
gone. roubaix should be epic in the muck sunday.

So, exactly how did the ProTour make the racing better?

I hesitate to respond to an OBVIOUS troll, or perhaps just a real nieve
American cycling fan. But while we are on the subject, it is my opinion
that the worldwide mainstream press has picked up on the Pro Tour
theme, and that it has had an impact on how the sport is starting to be
covered.
I am not refering to the local Flanders newspapers, as they probably
haven't changed one bit.

One way of loooking at it is entering the name of an event at google,
under news, not web. I think that it is a step in the correct direction
for the sport to have created this "League".

Time will tell. I don't think it will ever pull the Tour down to the
Giro or Vuelta's levels, but will create what they tried to do with
World Cup, but including multiday races now, as well.

clown PRO

Included example....

Controversial win for Mattan
FOX SPORTS, Australia - 23 hours ago
The Davitamon team rider's performance is being investigated amid
claims he was illegally assisted by two cars - including one belonging
to the race organisers ...

Mattan win sparks an angry protest
CNN International - Apr 6, 2005
WEVELGEM, Belgium (Reuters) -- Belgian Nico Mattan won the
Ghent-Wevelgem UCI ProTour race on home roads with a last-gasp effort
in Wednesday's race -- and ...

Belgian veteran Mattan wins Ghent-Wevelgem ProTour classic
Canada.com, Canada - Apr 6, 2005
WEVELGEM, Belgium (AP) - Belgian veteran Nico Mattan sped past Spain's
Juan Antonio Flecha with 250 metres to go and held on to win the
Ghent-Wevelgem classic ...

Mattan claims Gent-Wevelgem win
BBC Sport, UK - Apr 6, 2005
Nico Mattan pulled off a stunning late burst for victory in the ProTour
Gent-Wevelgem day race. The Belgian had pulled out a 20-second ...

Belgium's Mattan wins cycling classic
Seattle Post Intelligencer - Apr 6, 2005
WEVELGEM, Belgium -- Belgium's Nico Mattan won the Ghent-Wevelgem
classic in rain and strong wind Wednesday, cycling past Spain's Juan
Antonio Flecha with ...

Motored Mattan controversially denies Flecha
Eurosport, Italy - 10 hours ago
It looked like Flecha had timed a break to perfection as he blew away
both Mattan and Baden Cooke with one kilometre to go. Mattan ...

Ghent Wevelgem Race Report
Daily Peloton - 21 hours ago
By Podofdonny. After a fast and exciting days racing the commentators
were checking their record books to confirm that no Spanish ...

Nico Mattan victorious in Gent-Wevelgem
Cyclingpost.com, Spain - Apr 6, 2005
WEVELGEM, Apr 6 (CP) - Davitamon-Lotto rider Nico Mattan has won the
Belgian ProTour race Gent-Wevelgem, beating Juan Antonio Flecha in the
final meters. ...

Belgium's Mattan Wins Cycling Classic
Chicago Tribune (subscription) - Apr 6, 2005
By Associated Press. WEVELGEM, Belgium -- Belgium's Nico Mattan won the
Ghent-Wevelgem classic in rain and strong wind Wednesday, cycling ...

Belgium's Mattan Wins Cycling Classic
San Francisco Chronicle - Apr 6, 2005
Belgium's Nico Mattan won the Ghent-Wevelgem classic in rain and strong
wind Wednesday, cycling past Spain's Juan Antonio Flecha with almost
300 yards left. ...

I meant, the focus on the protour would lead to better racing as the
riders and teams would target the only races they could earn points
for, unlike previous years under the UCI system. the trend has been to
having larger and larger groups reaching the finale of races, for
whatever reeson( EPO equalizing riders, strong teams chasing everybody
down, etc.) . maybe I am just dabbling in wishful thinking, but i
prefer to see the races split up farther and see the favorites making
attacks earlier in the races instead of everybody slogging to the last
hill.

gf said:

look at the great thriling races at flanders and wevelgem....guys
limping in in groups minutes apart with solo winners. no more sittting
around for 6 hours looking at each other with 50 guys arriving at the
last climb..hopefully the rebellin formula for victory is dead and
gone. roubaix should be epic in the muck sunday.

Dude,

If you think the Pro Tour changed the racing, you are a freakin
lunatic. This is just another Fantasy Giro thread in disguise.

Thanks,

Magilla

"gf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I meant, the focus on the protour would lead to better racing as the
riders and teams would target the only races they could earn points
for, unlike previous years under the UCI system. the trend has been to
having larger and larger groups reaching the finale of races, for
whatever reeson( EPO equalizing riders, strong teams chasing everybody
down, etc.) . maybe I am just dabbling in wishful thinking, but i
prefer to see the races split up farther and see the favorites making
attacks earlier in the races instead of everybody slogging to the last
hill.

You really think it may be because the riders are less equal from cracking
down on EPO, and both forms of blood doping? Not likely. Ask this guy
amit.

MagillaGorilla schreef:

Quoted message said:

At least with the UCI points system, you could argue that the teams
needed to be ranked within a certain range in order to get an invite to
the Grand Tours. But with this Pro Tour, they all basically have
guaranteed entries since the UCI points sytem no longer exists.

It works in the other direction. And on an individual level too. Because of
their importance for access to races, UCI points were (for many riders)
correlated with market value. So it payed to sit and wait and choose the
certainty of a good placing in the sprint.

Now, with a meaningless points system, the win has gained in importance.

It also works at team level. T-Mobile is high in the current ranking, but
desperate about the absence of victories.

But actually, it's too early to assess this, and what's more: we have also
seen more open racing in the non PT races, by the PT teams. This might also
be related to the fact that there is no points system stimulating
conservative racing.

But there is also a new generation who wants to race like that, apparently.

"Van Hoorebeeck Bart" <[email hidden]> schreef in
bericht news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MagillaGorilla schreef:

Quoted message said:

At least with the UCI points system, you could argue that the teams
needed to be ranked within a certain range in order to get an invite to
the Grand Tours. But with this Pro Tour, they all basically have
guaranteed entries since the UCI points sytem no longer exists.

It works in the other direction. And on an individual level too. Because

of

Quoted message said:

their importance for access to races, UCI points were (for many riders)
correlated with market value. So it payed to sit and wait and choose the
certainty of a good placing in the sprint.

Now, with a meaningless points system, the win has gained in importance.

It also works at team level. T-Mobile is high in the current ranking, but
desperate about the absence of victories.

But actually, it's too early to assess this, and what's more: we have

also

Quoted message said:

seen more open racing in the non PT races, by the PT teams. This might

also

Quoted message said:

be related to the fact that there is no points system stimulating
conservative racing.

But there is also a new generation who wants to race like that,

apparently.

Quoted message said:

At the same time, it pays off to race conservatively in protour one-day
races, because a top 10 placing is equal to several stage wins. For example,
6th place in Gent-Wevelgem is equal to winning 11 (!) stages in races like
Paris-Nice. You have to win three tour stages and finish second in another
to get as many points as 6th place in G-W. What kind of racing would
theoretically be stimulated by that? I'd say conservative racing at one-day
races and disregard for stage wins.

Jonathan v.d. Sluis said:

"Van Hoorebeeck Bart" <[email hidden]> schreef

in

Quoted message said:

bericht news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MagillaGorilla schreef:

Quoted message said:

At least with the UCI points system, you could argue that the

teams

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

needed to be ranked within a certain range in order to get an

invite to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Grand Tours. But with this Pro Tour, they all basically have
guaranteed entries since the UCI points sytem no longer exists.

It works in the other direction. And on an individual level too.

Because

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

their importance for access to races, UCI points were (for many

riders)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

correlated with market value. So it payed to sit and wait and

choose the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

certainty of a good placing in the sprint.

Now, with a meaningless points system, the win has gained in

importance.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It also works at team level. T-Mobile is high in the current

ranking, but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

desperate about the absence of victories.

But actually, it's too early to assess this, and what's more: we

have

Quoted message said:

also

Quoted message said:

seen more open racing in the non PT races, by the PT teams. This

might

Quoted message said:

also

Quoted message said:

be related to the fact that there is no points system stimulating
conservative racing.

But there is also a new generation who wants to race like that,

apparently.

Quoted message said:

At the same time, it pays off to race conservatively in protour

one-day

Quoted message said:

races, because a top 10 placing is equal to several stage wins. For

example,

Quoted message said:

6th place in Gent-Wevelgem is equal to winning 11 (!) stages in races

like

Quoted message said:

Paris-Nice. You have to win three tour stages and finish second in

another

Quoted message said:

to get as many points as 6th place in G-W. What kind of racing would
theoretically be stimulated by that? I'd say conservative racing at

one-day

Quoted message said:

races and disregard for stage wins.

Two years from now, Robert Chung could probably slap some statistics on
the gaps and groups at the finish of all these one day races to confirm
whether the racing is more or less agressive.

MagillaGorilla said:

*THERE'S _NO REASON_ FOR A PRO TEAM TO WANT TO DO WELL IN THE PRO TOUR
BECAUSE THERE IS NO FINANCIAL PRIZE OR OTHER BENEFIT AT STAKE.***

Seems to me that if a team like having sponsers, they will seek to win
anything they can. What am I missing?

"Tim Lines" <[email hidden]> schreef

Quoted message said:

Seems to me that if a team like having sponsers, they will seek to win
anything they can. What am I missing?

That REAL wins and good ProTour ranking not necessarily go together. See the
T-Mobile example.

That is why I disagree with Jonathan too. Why would anyone care to score 5
or 10 points on GC, when a stage win makes for much more publicity,
recognition etc.

Bart Van Hoorebeeck said:

"Tim Lines" <[email hidden]> schreef

Quoted message said:

Seems to me that if a team like having sponsers, they will seek to win
anything they can. What am I missing?

That REAL wins and good ProTour ranking not necessarily go together.
See the T-Mobile example.

That is why I disagree with Jonathan too. Why would anyone care to
score 5 or 10 points on GC, when a stage win makes for much more
publicity, recognition etc.

DiLuca just scored 50 ProTour points, Contador 1.

Here's THE deal people

Teams need media coverage. That is the reason corporations sponsorhips
exist. They DO NOT CARE ABOUT 6th PLACE. Who, tell me without looking
placed 6th in the last 6 Tour de France. Other than like 12 people,
NOBODY CARES.

Now, teams in both the old and new system need to worry about invites
to events, or maintaining Top Club status, so that would be the
underlying reason for the scraps.

Riders are motivated by two things. Money and Glory. Tom Boonen is the
king of Belgium right now, and Roberto Heras is a god in Spain. It
would be hard for any D.S. to convince those two riders to switch
objectives (Northern Classics and Vuelta). They do it (the riders)
because when they where 11, they saw Flanders, or the Tour of Spain go
past their front door. The money aspect is also important.

Back in Eddy's day, the HAD to race 150 times for daily food money.
The prize money is still important (ask Dave Fuentes about his stolen
$5000), but the UCI points guaranteed contract money. It was generally
worth about $1000 (USD) for each UCI point. There are some exceptions
to that rule, but it generally was true. Now with the Pro Tour , it
will be interesting to see how both teams and riders respond. Since
invites are guaranteed, they perhaps will focus on maintaining that
status, and grabbing headlines will be the reward. I already stated
that the media seems to be picking up on the ProTour theme. That's what
AP needs. A series. Look at almost every other sport in the world.
NASCAR, English Premier, PGA, etc....

The riders will see that getting sixth in G-W is equal to winning a
stage at P-N. Perhaps this will affect riders motivations on some small
levels, but it is far to early to draw conclusions on the impact of the
UCI's changes after what....one month?

Overall and improvement. The big teams are guaranteed media, and the
former 2nd Div (Continental) teams will be shut out, but does anyone
really follow triple AAA Baseball. No.

Now maybe the UCI could license people who are allowed to post on RBR.
WAY to many amateur talking heads in here.

candy PRO

crit PRO said:

Here's THE deal people

Teams need media coverage. That is the reason corporations

sponsorhips

Quoted message said:

exist. They DO NOT CARE ABOUT 6th PLACE. Who, tell me without looking
placed 6th in the last 6 Tour de France. Other than like 12 people,
NOBODY CARES.

Now, teams in both the old and new system need to worry about invites
to events, or maintaining Top Club status, so that would be the
underlying reason for the scraps.

Riders are motivated by two things. Money and Glory. Tom Boonen is

the

Quoted message said:

king of Belgium right now, and Roberto Heras is a god in Spain. It
would be hard for any D.S. to convince those two riders to switch
objectives (Northern Classics and Vuelta). They do it (the riders)
because when they where 11, they saw Flanders, or the Tour of Spain

go

Quoted message said:

past their front door. The money aspect is also important.

Back in Eddy's day, the HAD to race 150 times for daily food money.
The prize money is still important (ask Dave Fuentes about his stolen
$5000), but the UCI points guaranteed contract money. It was

generally

Quoted message said:

worth about $1000 (USD) for each UCI point. There are some exceptions
to that rule, but it generally was true. Now with the Pro Tour , it
will be interesting to see how both teams and riders respond. Since
invites are guaranteed, they perhaps will focus on maintaining that
status, and grabbing headlines will be the reward. I already stated
that the media seems to be picking up on the ProTour theme. That's

what

Quoted message said:

AP needs. A series. Look at almost every other sport in the world.
NASCAR, English Premier, PGA, etc....

The riders will see that getting sixth in G-W is equal to winning a
stage at P-N. Perhaps this will affect riders motivations on some

small

Quoted message said:

levels, but it is far to early to draw conclusions on the impact of

the

Quoted message said:

UCI's changes after what....one month?

Overall and improvement. The big teams are guaranteed media, and the
former 2nd Div (Continental) teams will be shut out, but does anyone
really follow triple AAA Baseball. No.

Now maybe the UCI could license people who are allowed to post on

RBR.

Quoted message said:

WAY to many amateur talking heads in here.

candy PRO

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/apr05/apr08news

-Davitamon manager Marc Coucke has already stressed it, but now also
Patrick Lefevere's Quick.Step team is proving to be an excellent
vehicle for its sponsors to invest their budgets. Philiep Caryn, PR
manager at QuickStep, told the Belgian press that Boonen's win in
Flanders has had a huge impact: "Of course Tom's win is a golden
scenario for us. We estimate that last Sunday's race alone accounts for
a commercial return of 350,000 to 400,000 euro."

MagillaGorilla said:

gf said:

I meant, the focus on the protour would lead to better racing as the
riders and teams would target the only races they could earn points
for, unlike previous years under the UCI system. the trend has been to
having larger and larger groups reaching the finale of races, for
whatever reeson( EPO equalizing riders, strong teams chasing everybody
down, etc.) . maybe I am just dabbling in wishful thinking, but i
prefer to see the races split up farther and see the favorites making
attacks earlier in the races instead of everybody slogging to the last
hill.

gee eff,

And why would anyone want to do well in the Pro Tour points system - is
there some kind of money involved for placing 4th verses say 18th? No.

Of course there is. Which one would you hire next year?