Proof Warren is a genius.

"crit pro" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Amazing new science:

"Blood sugar levels matter for an athlete during exercise. The only
study abstract I could find that related to what you've said tested
subjects who were not exercising, and who had fasted 14 hours before
the testing began. Low blood sugar leads to certain things happening
that aren't happening for an athlete who is exercising and not fasting."

-WG

-thanks warren, for clearing that up.

Of course it's simple, even for a person like yourself who isn't smart
enough to learn enough about training to beat most of the dopers. The point
was that the only study I found related to niacin and fat burning problems
used subjects like I described so it would likely be irrelevant for
supporting Andy's point. That's why I asked about other studies (ones with
more relevance).

-WG

"Warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"crit pro" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Amazing new science:

"Blood sugar levels matter for an athlete during exercise. The only
study abstract I could find that related to what you've said tested
subjects who were not exercising, and who had fasted 14 hours before
the testing began. Low blood sugar leads to certain things happening
that aren't happening for an athlete who is exercising and not fasting."

-WG

-thanks warren, for clearing that up.

Of course it's simple, even for a person like yourself who isn't smart
enough to learn enough about training to beat most of the dopers. The point
was that the only study I found related to niacin and fat burning problems
used subjects like I described so it would likely be irrelevant for
supporting Andy's point. That's why I asked about other studies (ones with
more relevance).

-WG

Actually, looking at your posts surrounding Dr. Coggan's posts, you
seem to be the one who made the initial claims, er, recomendations
about supplements and their benefits.

Do you know of any defendable studies regarding your recomended does
of vit. C relative vs. the RDA and your claim of increased recovery in
cycling?

I think the main point here is that most of these supplement claims
are [censored] or not sufficiently documented to be considered reliable
([censored] pending...), and these myths are propogated by many a genius
waiting to maybe be "proven right" by someone else down the road.

I guess it is your money, liver, and kidneys though. Are you taking
responsibiity for other people's kidneys and livers etc. when you make
a recomendation?

I haven't seen a well documented and enduring claim which
deomonstrates that anything more than a well balanced diet with
moderate vit/min supplementation makes someone go faster on a
bike...let alone live a healthier life.

In article <[email hidden]>, L. Seer

Quoted message said:

Actually, looking at your posts surrounding Dr. Coggan's posts, you
seem to be the one who made the initial claims, er, recomendations
about supplements and their benefits.

Do you know of any defendable studies regarding your recomended does
of vit. C relative vs. the RDA and your claim of increased recovery in
cycling?

I said what I take and what I think they do for me. You can find many
studies and articles about Vitamin C as a powerful anti-oxidant and you
can read all about the functions of the B vitamins. You make your own
choices and I honestly don't care which you choose.

Quoted message said:

I guess it is your money, liver, and kidneys though. Are you taking
responsibiity for other people's kidneys and livers etc. when you make
a recomendation?

I think you need to learn more about the amounts of anything I've
mentioned that may lead to problems. For example, I mentioned 50 mg of
B3. From what I've read it is when people take 10 to 40 times that
amount that they need to be wary of liver problems. 1-2 grams of
Vitamin C during training is a small amount also. Excess is excreted
rapidly.

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen a well documented and enduring claim which
deomonstrates that anything more than a well balanced diet with
moderate vit/min supplementation makes someone go faster on a
bike...let alone live a healthier life.

So you think moderate supplementation is useful? Good, then do that.
Maybe you can do your own study with yourself since that is the most
relevant for you. If you don't think an extra gram or two of Vitamin C
helps you then you can save yourself 7 cents.

-WG

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, L. Seer
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen a well documented and enduring claim which
deomonstrates that anything more than a well balanced diet with
moderate vit/min supplementation makes someone go faster on a
bike...let alone live a healthier life.

Have a look C here...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed

Search on "vitamin c recovery exercise" and you can read more for
yourself.

Note the difference in results when study participants were given 1-2
grams of Vitamin C (positive benefits noted) vs. 200mg (virtually no
benefits noted). IOW, 200mg didn't seem to matter in the studies using
this amount, but differences were noted in studies that used 1+ grams.

YMMV.

-WG

crit pro said:

Amazing new science:

<snip>

Dumbass -

Anyone who takes Masters Fattie Racing seriously is not a genius.
K. Gringioni.

warren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, L. Seer
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen a well documented and enduring claim which
deomonstrates that anything more than a well balanced diet with
moderate vit/min supplementation makes someone go faster on a
bike...let alone live a healthier life.

Have a look C here...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed

Search on "vitamin c recovery exercise" and you can read more for
yourself.

Note the difference in results when study participants were given 1-2
grams of Vitamin C (positive benefits noted) vs. 200mg (virtually no
benefits noted). IOW, 200mg didn't seem to matter in the studies using
this amount, but differences were noted in studies that used 1+ grams.

YMMV.

-WG

Let us know how your personal experimentation with prolonged,
artificially enhanced concentrations of Vit.C goes. There are studies
which say that Vit. C in higher doses actually can be a pro-oxidant,
cause DNA damage, promote osteoarthritis, cause kidney stones, supress
the bodies own much-more powerful anti-oxidant compounds, (on and on),
and REPEATEDLY does not particulary show performance bennefits (which
could be a result of better recovery).

It's a mixed bag beyond the concentrations brought on by a balanced
diet and maybe some minor "diet insurance" supplementation. Maybe it
makes you feel better, just like my morning coffee for me!

"L. Seer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Let us know how your personal experimentation with prolonged,
artificially enhanced concentrations of Vit.C goes. There are studies
which say that Vit. C in higher doses actually can be a pro-oxidant,
cause DNA damage, promote osteoarthritis, cause kidney stones, supress
the bodies own much-more powerful anti-oxidant compounds, (on and on),
and REPEATEDLY does not particulary show performance bennefits (which
could be a result of better recovery).

Then I suggest you stay far away from vitamins.

I haven't seen the movie Saw yet, maybe never because the wife won't
go, but I think the premise is one that the enigmatic CritPro takes to
heart. How many of us has he turned on the other with little posts
like this. And he's laughing all the way to the bank as you and
Warren debate the merit/demerits of vitamin C?!
CH

[email hidden] (L. Seer) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

warren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, L. Seer
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I haven't seen a well documented and enduring claim which
> deomonstrates that anything more than a well balanced diet with
> moderate vit/min supplementation makes someone go faster on a
> bike...let alone live a healthier life.

Have a look C here...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed

Search on "vitamin c recovery exercise" and you can read more for
yourself.

Note the difference in results when study participants were given 1-2
grams of Vitamin C (positive benefits noted) vs. 200mg (virtually no
benefits noted). IOW, 200mg didn't seem to matter in the studies using
this amount, but differences were noted in studies that used 1+ grams.

YMMV.

-WG

Let us know how your personal experimentation with prolonged,
artificially enhanced concentrations of Vit.C goes. There are studies
which say that Vit. C in higher doses actually can be a pro-oxidant,
cause DNA damage, promote osteoarthritis, cause kidney stones, supress
the bodies own much-more powerful anti-oxidant compounds, (on and on),
and REPEATEDLY does not particulary show performance bennefits (which
could be a result of better recovery).

It's a mixed bag beyond the concentrations brought on by a balanced
diet and maybe some minor "diet insurance" supplementation. Maybe it
makes you feel better, just like my morning coffee for me!

In article <[email hidden]>, chris

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the movie Saw yet, maybe never because the wife won't
go, but I think the premise is one that the enigmatic CritPro takes to
heart. How many of us has he turned on the other with little posts
like this. And he's laughing all the way to the bank as you and
Warren debate the merit/demerits of vitamin C?!

Just because a dope like CP initiated the discussion doesn't change the
value of the discussion, eh?

-WG

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"L. Seer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Let us know how your personal experimentation with prolonged,
artificially enhanced concentrations of Vit.C goes. There are studies
which say that Vit. C in higher doses actually can be a pro-oxidant,
cause DNA damage, promote osteoarthritis, cause kidney stones, supress
the bodies own much-more powerful anti-oxidant compounds, (on and on),
and REPEATEDLY does not particulary show performance bennefits (which
could be a result of better recovery).

Then I suggest you stay far away from vitamins.

Now,now...that would be the other extreme wouldn't it? ;-)

warren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, chris

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the movie Saw yet, maybe never because the wife won't
go, but I think the premise is one that the enigmatic CritPro takes to
heart. How many of us has he turned on the other with little posts
like this. And he's laughing all the way to the bank as you and
Warren debate the merit/demerits of vitamin C?!

Just because a dope like CP initiated the discussion doesn't change the
value of the discussion, eh?

-WG

Ha! Hey, I think the real points here from both of us are that maybe
a bunch (whatever that means ;-)) of Vit. C does good things AND/OR
bad things but nobody really knows absolutely...but, if C helps (you)
feel better...there is no disputing that just like my coffee...they
both WORK for something!

That crit pro rascle!

(L. Seer) said:

warren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, chris

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the movie Saw yet, maybe never because the wife won't
go, but I think the premise is one that the enigmatic CritPro takes to
heart. How many of us has he turned on the other with little posts
like this. And he's laughing all the way to the bank as you and
Warren debate the merit/demerits of vitamin C?!

Just because a dope like CP initiated the discussion doesn't change the
value of the discussion, eh?

-WG

Ha! Hey, I think the real points here from both of us are that maybe
a bunch (whatever that means ;-)) of Vit. C does good things AND/OR
bad things but nobody really knows absolutely...but, if C helps (you)
feel better...there is no disputing that just like my coffee...they
both WORK for something!

Semi-definitive statement on Vit and supplement use: ;-D

1. you should be working out/training hard
2. you should have simplified and detoxified your diet, including reducing
your overall consumption of food (beyond what you need to prosper), but
taking more, smaller meals.
3. to discern what effects vitamins have on you, it may be necessary, once
condition 1 and 2 are met and habituated, to take the vitamins or
suppliments one at a time. By this I mean it's easy to confound your choice
if you just start 'mega-vitamin therapy' on yourself and start taking
everything from separate B vits, to E, and C and beta-carotene, and yeast,
and whey protein powder, yada, yada.

It should take you a while to properly research and learn the basics, and a
while to select your regime.

One example. Say you're checking to see if you need more B vitamins. Do you
just pick any old B off the shelf? Nope. Powdered is better (no pill making
fillers and binders, no gelatin capsules). Pick a company that has some
-other- company doing its potency and quality checks (if checks are
internal, expect fudging, error, othe rBS). Be aware of the not-good
effects of taking each B vitamin separately...you can do it, but it's
expensive and if you create a deficiency in one, it may mess up consumption
rates and availability of the other... IOW, they work together and must
have proper ratios. Then you have to decide if you're going to add the odd
synergists, like biotin, and folic acid, and soforth.

Anyway, say you've got this handled. You start your regime, journal the
results and go for a month, and look at workouts, colds (if any, severity,
etc.), and recovery and pre and post motivation. Some ppl get undeniable
effects (but were they deficient, or are mega-doses helping _you_). Some
get bad effects (stomach upset, etc.), many get colored urine and that'st
it. BUT, were they _tight_ on diet. Many effects of vitamins and
suppliments I notice strongly when working out and eating right and calorie
sparing. When I'm bulking out, and not working out, fergeddabout it. I
couldn't tell anything; but not b./c I was a non-responder. I had smply
drowned out or failed to synergize for potential results in that scenario.

Next is how to reliably take them. I've found you _must_ pre-prep, pre-bag,
and pre-select your vita/supp pack. Make 'em up for a week, keep 'em in the
fridge or out of heat/light anyway, and grab the bags you need for the day.

Dosage and consistency is important. What's -on- the bottle (or in your
food) is often not what's -in- the suppliment (or food!). Independent assay
is best. Some no-name brands are low in filler, good assay, top stuff. SOme
famous brands may be [censored] (though most famous brands have been found to be
low normal/adequate to good.)

Pre-prepping assures you don't forget. Some guys will arrange the bottles
out on their dresser and like going through them unscrewing each lid and
drinking them. That's fine. I've done that, but found some days that
doesn't work due to rushing around/scheduleing. THen you have the
pre-prepped ones to fall back on.

Keep reviewing the lit. and researching your vita-pak/suppliment regime.
THings change. Vit E is now getting more respect., etc.

Look into the -type- of vitamin. For exmple Vit E comes and the different
tocopherols, and comes as an acetate, and other ways, even powdered, I
think (water-soluable?). Do you mix 'em, or just take the main type E. Do
yo need to synergize it? Take it at same time as another vitamin? For
instance I take my E with my cold pressed flax seed oil. I seem to get a
better 'heat' reaction...but that's just me. Research your own combos.

If you are taking water soluble B and C, you may need to take small doses
3x a day to get good effect. There are pretty good -actual- time-release
water sols out there. (CTR brand worked for me).

Periodically go off your vits and supps. BUT, ramp down. Gradually decrease
your doses. THough I've never had a bad effect the couple times I stopped
cold, it's better to do it gradually. Same with starting up, though some
jump right into a full mega-vit/suppliment routine before even normalizing
their diet, or trying to discern what works, for the best results, you need
to research your -own- experience for max results.

Vits and supps can go bad. Beware of taking rancid oil sol. vits. If they
are old, toss 'em. If you take oils, adding an E capsule to them can help
counteract rancidity. (Break the E into the oil, or take an E cap when you
drink your oils. (see Udo's guide to oils for specifics))

That's about it off the top of my head...lol. Sorry for the long post.

Remember...it's what works for -you-. Know how to find this out, keep
testing and keep researching -as you age, your response/dose may change.

For instance, of all things, I had a huge response to this type of "High
Desert Bee Pollen Concentrate.". I kid you not! Before my 10K runs, I'd
chew about 4-6 of them, and by run time, I was feeling literally high, and
energized, plus very nice sensation of...how do I say it...like a full-body
aftertaste of the stuff. Uh, it's slightly sweet, but kind of like a moist
flakey slightly spicey candy taste - might use a binder, but it looked like
it was just compacted by a pill press at the company. Now maybe this was
largely placebo, or maybe my training and dieting was working well. All I
can say is to me it was definitely a charge related to the Bee Pollen conc.
and not a sugar rush, or anything. YMMV. In fact most ppl would probably
feel nothing, I'd guess, I don't know.

-B

Badger South said:

Some guys will arrange the bottles out on their dresser and
like going through them unscrewing each lid and
drinking *** them.

Correction: Should read: "...and drinking their protein shake with them..."

-B