Proof that lowracers are real fast

"ckaudio1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Take a look at the recumbent category post for time. Yes AA took the best time, even over CAT 1
and 2 riders. Looked like a smokefest to me. The second place recumbent also beat a lot of riders.
Pretty good showing I would say.

ambikerace.commatts single bong 20k.htmOpen ↗

26:45 vs 28.14 is a huge lead on a 20k TT.

-Barry

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Take a look at the recumbent category post for time. Yes AA took the best time, even over CAT 1
and 2 riders. Looked like a smokefest to me. The second place recumbent also beat a lot of riders.
Pretty good showing I would say.

ambikerace.commatts single bong 20k.htmOpen ↗

How hilly is this course?

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.

B. Sanders said:

"ckaudio1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Take a look at the recumbent category post for time. Yes AA took the best time, even over CAT 1
and 2 riders. Looked like a smokefest to me. The second place recumbent also beat a lot of
riders. Pretty good showing I would say.

ambikerace.commatts single bong 20k.htmOpen ↗

26:45 vs 28.14 is a huge lead on a 20k TT.

And 28:14 is a pretty awful time for a "Cat 1/2 rider". Was the issue hills or wind?

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

On 25 Apr 2003 09:03:32 -0700, [email hidden] (ckaudio1) wrote:

Posted elsewhere recently, to celebrate the reopening of Reading velodrome there was a race between
UK champion team pursuit squad, VC St.Raphael, and Rob English, riding unfaired to give them a
chance. On a 20lb home-built bike.

4000m, and one of the pursuit squad dropped out (allegedly because he couldn't hack the pace):

VC St Raphael: 5m 6.8 secs Rob English: 4m 55.5 secs

Bwuahahahahaha! [I ride recumbent]

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. chapmancentral.comchapmancentral.comOpen ↗ (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.

Just zis Guy said:

Posted elsewhere recently, to celebrate the reopening of Reading velodrome there was a race
between UK champion team pursuit squad, VC St.Raphael, and Rob English, riding unfaired to give
them a chance. On a 20lb home-built bike.

Quoted message said:

4000m, and one of the pursuit squad dropped out (allegedly because he couldn't hack the pace): VC
St Raphael: 5m 6.8 secs Rob English: 4m 55.5 secs Bwuahahahahaha! [I ride recumbent]

IIRC, the time in a 4-rider team pursuit is taken on the 3rd rider, thus it is fairly standard
practice for one rider to burn all his candles pulling and drop off on the last lap or so.

It is impressive for one guy to beat four guys. On the other hand, I don't know that it is seriously
disputed that a lowracer could in principle be more aero than an upright. (AFAIK no one has
presented evidence that non-lowracer unfaired recumbents are more aero than diamond frame bicycles.)

The real question is whether anyone should care. Not all riding is racing. And then, if you look at
rec.bicycles.racing, even though it is a den of iniquity and flamage, the denizens are not
interested in equipment questions and Campy/Shimano flamewars. They want to know _who_ rides faster,
not _what_.

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >

Quoted message said:

And 28:14 is a pretty awful time for a "Cat 1/2 rider".

Mark, these guys have never riden with a good road rider. They think they are fast because the only
gauge they have are other unfit recreational types.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

On 25 Apr 2003 09:03:32 -0700, [email hidden] (ckaudio1) wrote:

Posted elsewhere recently, to celebrate the reopening of Reading velodrome there was a race
between UK champion team pursuit squad, VC St.Raphael, and Rob English, riding unfaired to give
them a chance. On a 20lb home-built bike.

4000m, and one of the pursuit squad dropped out (allegedly because he couldn't hack the pace):

VC St Raphael: 5m 6.8 secs Rob English: 4m 55.5 secs

Not extremely surprising given the conditions. I'd still like to see a similar race on a hilly
course or a tough climb like the Mt. Washington hill climb.

...

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

In article said:

Just zis Guy said:

Posted elsewhere recently, to celebrate the reopening of Reading velodrome there was a race
between UK champion team pursuit squad, VC St.Raphael, and Rob English, riding unfaired to give
them a chance. On a 20lb home-built bike.

Quoted message said:

4000m, and one of the pursuit squad dropped out (allegedly because he couldn't hack the pace):
VC St Raphael: 5m 6.8 secs Rob English: 4m 55.5 secs

Quoted message said:

The real question is whether anyone should care. Not all riding is racing. And then, if you look
at rec.bicycles.racing, even though it is a den of iniquity and flamage, the denizens are not
interested in equipment questions and Campy/Shimano flamewars. They want to know _who_ rides
faster, not _what_.

That's true. they're far too busy offering gratuitously homoerotic insults to each other over the
random doping accusation of the week to bother with bike tech.

That's why the gratuitously homoerotic insults regarding equipment are focussed on
rec.bicycles.tech, which is the proper group for them, though rbm is also an acceptable venue.

Share & Enjoy,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

David Kerber said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

On 25 Apr 2003 09:03:32 -0700, [email hidden] (ckaudio1) wrote:

Posted elsewhere recently, to celebrate the reopening of Reading velodrome there was a race
between UK champion team pursuit squad, VC St.Raphael, and Rob English, riding unfaired to give
them a chance. On a 20lb home-built bike.

4000m, and one of the pursuit squad dropped out (allegedly because he couldn't hack the pace):

VC St Raphael: 5m 6.8 secs Rob English: 4m 55.5 secs

Not extremely surprising given the conditions. I'd still like to see a similar race on a hilly
course or a tough climb like the Mt. Washington hill climb.

I agree. I asked for that a _long_ time ago. Never got a reply!

--
Frank Krygowski [email hidden]

Mark,

The course had a few hills and the winds were prevalent for half the circuit. And the best cat1
racer completed the course in 27.22.03 vs. AA's
26.43.44. Road surface conditions were atrocious for several miles with very rough pavement similar
to "chip seal surfaces."

There was a 3 cat 1/2, 5 cat 5, and 18 cat 4 "racerrs" and over 100 competitors whom AA bettered.
Warren on the other "race specific recumbent" was 5th place overall, not a bad showing for a mid
40's year old once a week rider.

Just yesterday at the Major Taylor Velodrome in Indianapolis, AA took first place in a 50 lap race
taking the lead from the git go and with "no drafting" averaged 29-30 mph for the entire event. He
broke sweat but amazingly rode it in his middle 45 tooth chainring with 650C rear tired "race
specific bent."

And elsewhere in this forum there has been several well documented "circuit 1 hour TT's or races
where the winning and lead recumbents "averaged" in the 33 mph range for that duration.

Can you cite specific examples from the DF realm bettering these numbers? And remember, these
figures are for "stock race specific recumbents."

Ed -

Mark Hickey said:

B. Sanders said:

"ckaudio1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Take a look at the recumbent category post for time. Yes AA took the best time, even over CAT 1
and 2 riders. Looked like a smokefest to me. The second place recumbent also beat a lot of
riders. Pretty good showing I would say.

ambikerace.commatts single bong 20k.htmOpen ↗

26:45 vs 28.14 is a huge lead on a 20k TT.

And 28:14 is a pretty awful time for a "Cat 1/2 rider". Was the issue hills or wind?

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

David,

Though the course may not be as hilly as many, the fact that these two recumbents placed so well in
a very competitive TT series, speaks for itself. For many years, it has been rumored that cat racers
are tough to beat.

What other venue would be a better test than a TT since it is a gauging of personal athleticism
without the tactics of pack riding and drafting? Just recently the Matts Series opened up the event
to our "race specific recumbents" and since then, each one had our riders in the upper finishers.
Note these bikes are all classified as "stock."

The conditions have varied from sub freezing, to warm but far from ideal at these events. We'll be
at the upcoming 30K and 40K TT's to run again.

Ed

archer said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Take a look at the recumbent category post for time. Yes AA took the best time, even over CAT 1
and 2 riders. Looked like a smokefest to me. The second place recumbent also beat a lot of
riders. Pretty good showing I would say.

ambikerace.commatts single bong 20k.htmOpen ↗

How hilly is this course?

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord, it's
morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote

Quoted message said:

Not extremely surprising given the conditions. I'd still like to see a similar race on a hilly
course or a tough climb like the Mt. Washington hill climb.

Why? Rather than these interminable arguments, just ask for the CdA and weight of each type of
bicycle for a standard-sized rider. We know enough about the power equation to exactly answer under
which conditions one type of bike will be faster than another for the same power input.

Ed Gin & Shirleen Kajiwara said:

The course had a few hills and the winds were prevalent for half the circuit. And the best cat1
racer completed the course in 27.22.03 vs. AA's
26.43.44. Road surface conditions were atrocious for several miles with very rough pavement
similar to "chip seal surfaces."

Those are pretty much different numbers than reported below (by almost a minute!).

Quoted message said:

There was a 3 cat 1/2, 5 cat 5, and 18 cat 4 "racerrs" and over 100 competitors whom AA bettered.
Warren on the other "race specific recumbent" was 5th place overall, not a bad showing for a mid
40's year old once a week rider.

Pretty small turnout - do any of the state championship TTs allow 'bents? It would be interesting to
see how he stacks up against a larger field "when it matters" (smaller TTs are often nothing more
than an fitness test for racers trying to peak later).

Quoted message said:

Just yesterday at the Major Taylor Velodrome in Indianapolis, AA took first place in a 50 lap race
taking the lead from the git go and with "no drafting" averaged 29-30 mph for the entire event. He
broke sweat but amazingly rode it in his middle 45 tooth chainring with 650C rear tired "race
specific bent."

Then he would have only been 4-5mph slower than Rominger or Boardman. ;-)

Quoted message said:

And elsewhere in this forum there has been several well documented "circuit 1 hour TT's or races
where the winning and lead recumbents "averaged" in the 33 mph range for that duration.

Can you cite specific examples from the DF realm bettering these numbers? And remember, these
figures are for "stock race specific recumbents."

Since I don't know the circumstances, it would be difficult to compare apples and oranges. If you're
talking about riding in a velodrome, the fastest DFs are well above 34mph (that's solo - I'm not
sure how fast other multiple rider events are).

Probably a more realistic comparison (though one that would be tough to come up with 'bent numbers
for) would be the average speed of a major race like the Tour de France. In 2002, the overall
average was almost 26mph (and that includes a fair amount of "parade mode" when they decided to cool
their jets for a while). Considering the amount of climbing involved, it's hard to imagine a pack of
'bents being able to make up the difference with a mph or two advantage on the flat.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey said:

B. Sanders said:

"ckaudio1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> Take a look at the recumbent category post for time. Yes AA took the best time, even over CAT
> 1 and 2 riders. Looked like a smokefest to me. The second place recumbent also beat a lot of
> riders. Pretty good showing I would say.
>
> ambikerace.commatts single bong 20k.htmOpen ↗

26:45 vs 28.14 is a huge lead on a 20k TT.

And 28:14 is a pretty awful time for a "Cat 1/2 rider". Was the issue hills or wind?

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

Mark Hickey said:

...

Quoted message said:

Just yesterday at the Major Taylor Velodrome in Indianapolis, AA took first place in a 50 lap
race taking the lead from the git go and with "no drafting" averaged 29-30 mph for the entire
event. He broke sweat but amazingly rode it in his middle 45 tooth chainring with 650C rear tired
"race specific bent."

Then he would have only been 4-5mph slower than Rominger or Boardman. ;-)....

And remember we a comparing an amateur in his late 40's who works full time to two professional
cyclists in the prime of their careers.

It would be interesting to put a power measuring crank on all three bikes and then run them at the
same input under identical conditions.

AA also rides the same bike he races thousands of miles per year on public roads. Would anyone be
willing to do the same on a "Obree/Superman" position upright?

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote

Quoted message said:

Not extremely surprising given the conditions. I'd still like to see a similar race on a hilly
course or a tough climb like the Mt. Washington hill climb.

Why? Rather than these interminable arguments, just ask for the CdA and weight of each type of
bicycle for a standard-sized rider. We know enough about the power equation to exactly answer
under which conditions one type of bike will be faster than another for the same power input.

I'm trying to end the argument by seeing some real world results, because I want to see real life
results, not "should be" results from laboratory calculations. I'm an engineer, and have some feel
for how well laboratory results and theoretical calculations transfer to the real world. I.E. often
not very well. The power equation doesn't take into account any effect that the different riding
position might have on the overall mechanical efficiency of the bike/rider system.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

Well put Tom,

The top finishers in the 1 hour TT averaged the spectacular 33 plus mph speeds on a road course and
not a single one of them were pros or amateur (cat) racers. He apparantly doesn't get it.

Ed Gin

Tom Sherman said:

Mark Hickey said:

...

Quoted message said:

Just yesterday at the Major Taylor Velodrome in Indianapolis, AA took first place in a 50 lap
race taking the lead from the git go and with "no drafting" averaged 29-30 mph for the entire
event. He broke sweat but amazingly rode it in his middle 45 tooth chainring with 650C rear
tired "race specific bent."

Then he would have only been 4-5mph slower than Rominger or Boardman. ;-)....

And remember we a comparing an amateur in his late 40's who works full time to two professional
cyclists in the prime of their careers.

It would be interesting to put a power measuring crank on all three bikes and then run them at the
same input under identical conditions.

AA also rides the same bike he races thousands of miles per year on public roads. Would anyone be
willing to do the same on a "Obree/Superman" position upright?

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

David,

You will not end the argument any time soon. It will rage on and continue to bore folks who could
care less for some time to come. Someone should write the book "It's not about the position" or
something. I have been beaten up hills on both a recumbent and an upright by a guy on a kick
scooter. I was out of shape at the time and he was in very good shape, so what? It does not prove
that kick scooters are faster up hills than any other type of ride.

The general public will vote with thier checkbooks about the merits of one bike over another.
eventually, we will only be able to buy 40 lb asian made hybrids from Costco, and the argument will
be put to rest.

Cheers, Derek

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message > > "David Kerber"

Quoted message said:

I'm trying to end the argument by seeing some real world results, because I want to see real life
results, not "should be" results from laboratory calculations. I'm an engineer, and have some feel
for how well laboratory results and theoretical calculations transfer to the real world. I.E.
often not very well. The power equation doesn't take into account any effect that the different
riding position might have on the overall mechanical efficiency of the bike/rider system.

Robert Chung said:

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote

Quoted message said:

Not extremely surprising given the conditions. I'd still like to see a similar race on a hilly
course or a tough climb like the Mt. Washington hill climb.

Why? Rather than these interminable arguments, just ask for the CdA and weight of each type of
bicycle for a standard-sized rider. We know enough about the power equation to exactly answer
under which conditions one type of bike will be faster than another for the same power input.

As David said in response, your proposal leaves much to be desired. It's _not_ real world.

Here's a real-world report from todays invitational ride that we did. It was a 30 mile flat ride,
with an optional 24 mile hilly loop after lunch. And some of the hills were brutal indeed. (The guy
who laid out the route said his car had trouble climbing some of them.)

On the flat route, there were many recumbents. Out of about 200 riders, I'd say I saw about 15 to 20
recumbents. For around here, that's a _lot_.

On the optional hilly route? Zero. Zip. None. AFAIK, not one recumbent rider tried to take on
the hills.

Incidentally, there was one handicapped guy, with only one useable arm, who did do the hilly route,
on an upright, of course. And at least one tandem couple. But no recumbents.

--
Frank Krygowski [email hidden]

Frank,

Bent riders don't avoid hills as a rule but they do avoid loops. Since the optional route was a
loop, it stands to reason that the bent riders avoided
it. . . .Bent riders also usually avoid out and back routes.

Cheers, Derek

"Frank Krygowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Robert Chung said:

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote

Quoted message said:

Not extremely surprising given the conditions. I'd still like to see

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

similar race on a hilly course or a tough climb like the Mt.

Washington

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hill climb.

Why? Rather than these interminable arguments, just ask for the CdA and weight of each type of
bicycle for a standard-sized rider. We know

enough

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about the power equation to exactly answer under which conditions one

type

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of bike will be faster than another for the same power input.

As David said in response, your proposal leaves much to be desired. It's _not_ real world.

Here's a real-world report from todays invitational ride that we did. It was a 30 mile flat ride,
with an optional 24 mile hilly loop after lunch. And some of the hills were brutal indeed. (The
guy who laid out the route said his car had trouble climbing some of them.)

On the flat route, there were many recumbents. Out of about 200 riders, I'd say I saw about 15 to
20 recumbents. For around here, that's a _lot_.

On the optional hilly route? Zero. Zip. None. AFAIK, not one recumbent rider tried to take on
the hills.

Incidentally, there was one handicapped guy, with only one useable arm, who did do the hilly
route, on an upright, of course. And at least one tandem couple. But no recumbents.

--
Frank Krygowski [email hidden]