Proof that Basso worked with LA in the TDF 2004

limerickman said:

If proof was ever needed as to how LA was not challenged by Ivan Basso (2nd to LA in the 2004 TDF), a film due for release in Denmark will show the very close co-operation between Ivan Basso and Lance Armstrong.

Basso is filmed discussing tactics with lance Armstrong - even though Basso cycled for another team and was supposed to be competing against LA for
first spot on GC.

Read all about it here :

http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=1231

Well duh...
does the news reach Ireland so late?

Yes they worked together, but there was no way Basso could really attack Lance in the mountains anyway, and Basso lost big time to him in the ITTs. So what's new?

Lance always said that no matter if it were Mayo attacking in the mountains or whomever-- that a tougher race on the climbs HELPED him. Why?
Because fast attacking climbers with Lance following wheels or going with the attacks would distance Ullrich. And lance, based on the previous year, was worried he could lose 2-3 minutes on Ullrich in an ITT. Ullrich has always been his number one concern. And Lance has always been right about that fact.

Nothing new here. No surprise. Just confirmation of what everyone already surmised. At least those with eyes to see. Yawn.

I belive Basso was third.

limerickman said:

If proof was ever needed as to how LA was not challenged by Ivan Basso (2nd to LA in the 2004 TDF), a film due for release in Denmark will show the very close co-operation between Ivan Basso and Lance Armstrong.

[font=Arial]Some very touchy people on this forum ! 🙂 I think its very significant in relation to this years Tour.

For example if a T-Mobile rider attacks and Armstrong or Basso become isolated will they be able to count on each other's team to help out ? It would appear so. This will make things harder for Ullrich, Vino, Mayo et al. Good tactics by Disc and CSC....

Backed up by Gaumont's comments yesterday that team alliances go a lot further than we think..... (cyclingnews.comnews.phpOpen ↗)
[/font]

Bjørn P.Dal said:

I belive Basso was third.

You're quite correct - my mistake.
Apologies !

hombredesubaru said:

Well duh...
does the news reach Ireland so late?

Yes they worked together, but there was no way Basso could really attack Lance in the mountains anyway, and Basso lost big time to him in the ITTs. So what's new?

Lance always said that no matter if it were Mayo attacking in the mountains or whomever-- that a tougher race on the climbs HELPED him. Why?
Because fast attacking climbers with Lance following wheels or going with the attacks would distance Ullrich. And lance, based on the previous year, was worried he could lose 2-3 minutes on Ullrich in an ITT. Ullrich has always been his number one concern. And Lance has always been right about that fact.

Nothing new here. No surprise. Just confirmation of what everyone already surmised. At least those with eyes to see. Yawn.

I would have a thought a man in second place (as Basso was at the time in the TDF) would have at least tried to challenge for first spot.
He didn't. He did a deal.

Now we have the proof.

(and as someone who cries "where the proof" at practically every instance, you're remarkably sanguine when proof is proffered. No doubt you'd be shouting "where's the proof" if some alleged here that Basso helped Lance Armstrong, without this film which confirm that Basso acquiesed ?).

limerickman said:

You're quite correct - my mistake.
Apologies !

It is fairly comon knowledge that cyclist have an un-written gentlemans agreement to aid each other at times.
It is also know that if you break the accepted etiquette you may pay for it in a future race.
I commented on this particular issue the day of that first mountain stage that Basso won.
I never doubted for a moment that they struck a deal.

Deals are done - there is no doubt.

I thought it disappointing that Basso did not go all out to try to win on GC.
We don't know the reasons but looking at it as a fan, I would have liked to have
seen Basso having a go.

limerickman said:

Deals are done - there is no doubt.

I thought it disappointing that Basso did not go all out to try to win on GC.
We don't know the reasons but looking at it as a fan, I would have liked to have
seen Basso having a go.

Maybe he did I would not venture to say whether he gave it his all or not but I am hearing things that make be believe that this year may be a very good contest.

Ullrich will be at the Gippensen World Cup race this Sunday. This should give us a little more insight into his abilities and conditioning this year.

limerickman said:

Deals are done - there is no doubt.

I thought it disappointing that Basso did not go all out to try to win on GC.
We don't know the reasons but looking at it as a fan, I would have liked to have
seen Basso having a go.

I haven't seen anything that looks like Basso made a deal to not attack Armstrong I see a deal that Basso would help Armstrong get away from Ullrich and Kloden.

I don't think Basso was ready to win last year. I don't think that will be a problem this year. His time trialing won't be a problem. His climbing won't be a problem. His team has never been a problem. Hmmmm.

DiabloScott said:

I haven't seen anything that looks like Basso made a deal to not attack Armstrong I see a deal that Basso would help Armstrong get away from Ullrich and Kloden.

I don't think Basso was ready to win last year. I don't think that will be a problem this year. His time trialing won't be a problem. His climbing won't be a problem. His team has never been a problem. Hmmmm.

While Lance says Ullrich is his biggest problem, it seems that Basso has got both the climbing and TTing. Basso might even drop Lance this year or possibly beat him in the TT.

On the other hand, as Bruyneel has already said, having a GT winner in Salvodelli gives Postal a few cards to play.

Huh who said he COULD! The only day he could was on la mongie! The next day armstrong said he could feel basso was riding on the limit. So what does the TDF peloton need to do then? Ever read diaries of leipheimer he says allready sitting on the usps weel is hard...........so who should attack them.

And it is no point in attacking armstrong earlier in the mountains when there is 20 km of flat rode left.........the team of armstrong will bring that back too!

With such a strong team.......there isn't much to do. The dutch press was criticizing Rabo for not attacking........they forgot that the whole peloton was dying in the wheel of the usps men in the mountains. It would have been a kamikaze action to attack and try things.....

Sooooo the question how do you beat them.........a question that still goes on 6 years and counting!

limerickman said:

Deals are done - there is no doubt.

I thought it disappointing that Basso did not go all out to try to win on GC.
We don't know the reasons but looking at it as a fan, I would have liked to have
seen Basso having a go.

And for the basso fans......the thing he lacks is consistency he always has one day off.........like alpe d' huez last year. If he doesn't have such day he COULD make it hard on armstrong.

If he wants to win the tour......everything must be perfect: team, tactics, his form (no off-day) etc.

AND will he be recovered from the giro??. I have more doubt on him now then on.........oke you guessed it😉

limerickman said:

I would have a thought a man in second place (as Basso was at the time in the TDF) would have at least tried to challenge for first spot.
He didn't. He did a deal.

Now we have the proof.

(and as someone who cries "where the proof" at practically every instance, you're remarkably sanguine when proof is proffered. No doubt you'd be shouting "where's the proof" if some alleged here that Basso helped Lance Armstrong, without this film which confirm that Basso acquiesed ?).

I havent seen the film, so I cannot say whether it indicates that Basso acquiesced. That is your interpretation.

What the reviews of the film have said is that phone calls between Lance and Basso took place regarding Basso's mother. Lance was willing to do anything and did in fact contact his foundation who helped Ivan's mother be directed to the best care that could be found in Italy. Unfortunately to no avail.

What Basso was reported to have said in the film was that if any help ws needed, he would give it to Lance. I did not interpret that to mean, I will give away my chance of winning the Tour so you can win because you were kind to me about my mother's illness. I'll have to see the film though.

If you recall, when Ullrich put in his big attack on Lance in 2003 and gapped him in the last 3km on a climb in the Alps I think, Lance was drifting alone and searching for wheels. It was Basso's wheel that Lance found and towed Lance for a km until Lance could recover, then sprint back until he regained almost all the time but 8 seconds or something like that on Ullrich. Lance owed Basso one at that point, and that was when Basso was riding for Fassa Bortolo and I think the whole team had abandoned and gone home with Petacchi.

No, I dont think Basso thought or knew he would be alone with Lance in the mountains, but once they were, they clearly worked together and the teams supported this concept by riding against Telekom, which was smart for both lance and Basso. Remember the big flap when Jens Voigt sat up when he was down the road so he could come back and ride for the team CSC. This was to prevent Ullrich and Kloden from setting up and executing their tactic which was for Ullrich to ride off the front to draw some fire power then either Ullrich would get away or it would come together and Klodi would go for the stage win.

This is why Jan chased Floyd down when Lance let Floyd go for the stage win. A lot of infighting that day. Lance won of course. Caught Kloden on the line.

limerickman said:

I would have a thought a man in second place (as Basso was at the time in the TDF) would have at least tried to challenge for first spot.
He didn't.

Basso didn't try very hard to challenge LA because (1) Basso knew LA was better than he was and would win the TdF, including because LA is a much better ITTist, and (2) it is a legitimate strategy, when at that point, somebody had won the TdF five consecutive times and had a dominating team, to aim for a more realistic second or third place.

It is entirely within a cyclist's freedom of action and decision to tell another cyclist, a friend, that you plan to attack or not. That happens all the time. It is entirely appropriate to implicitly or slightly more explicitly collaborate with a team, at a given point in the race, with which you have common interests.

For example, when JU tried to attack, CSC and USPS worked together (mostly CSC, OK) to bring JU back. Both wanted JU controlled, for their own reasons.

Cycling is obviously a sport in which strategy plays a significant part. Teams only collaborate when it is advantageous for them to do so. Look at CSC and DC in this year's Giro. Obviously, on some occasions, they were working together (OK, more CSC working and Savoldelli benefitting from CSC's control of the peloton). On others, they were not.

hombredesubaru said:

I havent seen the film, so I cannot say whether it indicates that Basso acquiesced. That is your interpretation..............

Holdee up there pardner !

I am only reporting what Procycling said about the deal struck between LA and Basso.

It's on film.

So it's not "my interpretation" - alright ?

musette said:

Basso didn't try very hard to challenge LA because (1) Basso knew LA was better than he was and would win the TdF, including because LA is a much better ITTist, and (2) it is a legitimate strategy, when at that point, somebody had won the TdF five consecutive times and had a dominating team, to aim for a more realistic second or third place.

It is entirely within a cyclist's freedom of action and decision to tell another cyclist, a friend, that you plan to attack or not. That happens all the time. It is entirely appropriate to implicitly or slightly more explicitly collaborate with a team, at a given point in the race, with which you have common interests.

For example, when JU tried to attack, CSC and USPS worked together (mostly CSC, OK) to bring JU back. Both wanted JU controlled, for their own reasons.

Cycling is obviously a sport in which strategy plays a significant part. Teams only collaborate when it is advantageous for them to do so. Look at CSC and DC in this year's Giro. Obviously, on some occasions, they were working together (OK, more CSC working and Savoldelli benefitting from CSC's control of the peloton). On others, they were not.

Fantastic stuff and great speculation.

The film shows a deal was done.

The rest is speculation.

I'm only saying that a deal was done - that's all I'm saying.

All the LA fans are rushing out with various theories about this, that and t'other.
That's fine and well.

I only know that we now have proof that a deal was done.
That's all.

Here you go again, trying to assert things that are not true (or at least not necessarily true).

If a cyclist tells a fellow cyclist, "I'm going to attack on Stage X and Y" --> That does not a deal make. Cyclists share information about their hopes, aspirations and plans all the time. They are entitled to talk in the peloton and whilst they are at their hotels. And I am sure they do.

If a cyclist tells another cyclist, "Tell me if you need help" --> That does not a deal make. It could just mean that the cyclists are friends, and are expressing their concern for each other and respect for the other person.

If a cyclist tells a fellow cyclist, "Good deeds will be appreciated, and what goes around comes around." That is also not a problem.

Do you think, it there were a truly illegal deal, that Ris would be stupid enough to be caught on film engaging in such activities? I think not 😄

Also, for the nth time, there is nothing wrong with cooperating with another team if the strategies of the two teams are aligned at any given point in the race. What the CSC movie shows is two teams sharing information about crosswinds (Bruyneel/Ris) and ways to deal with that. Two riders sharing information about where one thinks he is going to attack, and the other's processing that information and thinking he could personally gain from that information. It's all normal and entirely legitimate.

limerickman said:

Holdee up there pardner !

I am only reporting what Procycling said about the deal struck between LA and Basso.

It's on film.

So it's not "my interpretation" - alright ?

This is what procycling reported, the rest is your interpretation, eh?

In one of the film’s most significant scenes, which sheds light on the closeness of the relationship between Basso and Armstrong, parts of a telephone conversation can be heard between the American and the Italian, who has shortly before learned about the seriousness of his mother’s cancer. Only Basso’s responses are heard, but at the end Basso tells Armstrong: “In this Tour – if you need something you just ask for it.”

Later we see Basso talking to manager Bjarne Riis about a conversation he’s had with Armstrong, in which Armstrong has told Basso to if he stays close to him on Friday he’ll end far up on Saturday. “He wants to decide the Tour on the weekend,” Basso tells Riis.

And how deal DONT work:

Earlier in the film, US Postal team manager Johan Bruyneel is heard calling Riis during a stage to establish the need for co-operation in the possible sidewinds affecting the race on stage seven to Saint Brieuc. In this case, their plan doesn’t work out, but it only goes to show that in cycling deals are an integrated part of the show – and this time it’s been documented.

So what's new here?