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Pro Tour discussion

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27 April 2004
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Van Hoorebeeck Bart
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  1. http://www.cycling4all.com
    has a preliminary look at the calendar and point scales

    - Based on a calculations with 2003 results they conclude that
    year-round races are disfavoured, as opposed to the intentions. I don' t
    think this is true, Zabel and Petacchi fall away from the top of the
    ranking because stage results become marginal in the new calculation.
    The new calculation is not sprinter-friendly. This really is a drastic
    change.

    -But we see those who scored in (a few) main events (GTs/HC+ World Cup)
    come to the foreground (Vino, Hamilton, Ullrich), as opposed to those
    who score in whatever they race . This in istelf is rather good. But
    the change is really big, with the rudimentary points system limited to
    just these PT events.

    - Apparently teams will gain points on the team ranking in each event.
    This is remarkable, and reflects who was the teams' negotiator (Manolo
    Saiz). Well his colleagues who appointed him shouldn't be surprised or
    complain now.
    Also the lesser importance of single day racing in general is probably
    influenced by his strong position.

    - The regional aspect probably triggers most discussion. If they want
    promote cycling elsewhere, why keep 2 similar long races in Switzerland,
    instead of promiting one in Americas or Asia , as is the case in Poland
    ?
    Here in Belgium the 1.1 races are seen as evident victims of the new
    system (especially as we lack important stage races). The Flemish style
    racer has 3 events left in the new system. It makes more sense to build
    a team with men for the stage races and 'climbing' classics, and ride
    through the few other races (... as Saiz has always done)

    - I dont wanna blame Saiz for everything, as it are the UCI who are the
    motor in this.

  2. Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

    http://www.cycling4all.com
    has a preliminary look at the calendar and point scales

    This is not a well thought out plan.

  3. Robert Chung schreef:

    Quoted message said:
    Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

    http://www.cycling4all.com
    has a preliminary look at the calendar and point scales

    This is not a well thought out plan.

    Dear Robert

    Your out-of-office automatic reply funcion is still active.

    Regards,
    BVH

  4. "Van Hoorebeeck Bart" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    http://www.cycling4all.com
    has a preliminary look at the calendar and point scales

    - Based on a calculations with 2003 results they conclude that
    year-round races are disfavoured, as opposed to the intentions. I don' t
    think this is true, Zabel and Petacchi fall away from the top of the
    ranking because stage results become marginal in the new calculation.
    The new calculation is not sprinter-friendly. This really is a drastic
    change.

    -But we see those who scored in (a few) main events (GTs/HC+ World Cup)
    come to the foreground (Vino, Hamilton, Ullrich), as opposed to those
    who score in whatever they race . This in istelf is rather good. But
    the change is really big, with the rudimentary points system limited to
    just these PT events.

    - Apparently teams will gain points on the team ranking in each event.
    This is remarkable, and reflects who was the teams' negotiator (Manolo
    Saiz). Well his colleagues who appointed him shouldn't be surprised or
    complain now.
    Also the lesser importance of single day racing in general is probably
    influenced by his strong position.

    - The regional aspect probably triggers most discussion. If they want
    promote cycling elsewhere, why keep 2 similar long races in Switzerland,
    instead of promiting one in Americas or Asia , as is the case in Poland
    ?
    Here in Belgium the 1.1 races are seen as evident victims of the new
    system (especially as we lack important stage races). The Flemish style
    racer has 3 events left in the new system. It makes more sense to build
    a team with men for the stage races and 'climbing' classics, and ride
    through the few other races (... as Saiz has always done)

    - I dont wanna blame Saiz for everything, as it are the UCI who are the
    motor in this.


    The most telling aspect is that for a reorganization to reward the "season
    long" riders, there are 11 single day races, not counting the world
    championships, out of ~150-200 racing days. Ridiculously too much emphasis
    on stage racing. I like it the way it is now.
    -MIke

  5. Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

    http://www.cycling4all.com
    has a preliminary look at the calendar and point scales

    - Based on a calculations with 2003 results they conclude that
    year-round races are disfavoured, as opposed to the intentions. I don' t
    think this is true, Zabel and Petacchi fall away from the top of the
    ranking because stage results become marginal in the new calculation.
    The new calculation is not sprinter-friendly. This really is a drastic
    change.

    -But we see those who scored in (a few) main events (GTs/HC+ World Cup)
    come to the foreground (Vino, Hamilton, Ullrich), as opposed to those
    who score in whatever they race . This in istelf is rather good. But
    the change is really big, with the rudimentary points system limited to
    just these PT events.

    - Apparently teams will gain points on the team ranking in each event.
    This is remarkable, and reflects who was the teams' negotiator (Manolo
    Saiz). Well his colleagues who appointed him shouldn't be surprised or
    complain now.
    Also the lesser importance of single day racing in general is probably
    influenced by his strong position.

    - The regional aspect probably triggers most discussion. If they want
    promote cycling elsewhere, why keep 2 similar long races in Switzerland,
    instead of promiting one in Americas or Asia , as is the case in Poland
    ?
    Here in Belgium the 1.1 races are seen as evident victims of the new
    system (especially as we lack important stage races). The Flemish style
    racer has 3 events left in the new system. It makes more sense to build
    a team with men for the stage races and 'climbing' classics, and ride
    through the few other races (... as Saiz has always done)

    - I dont wanna blame Saiz for everything, as it are the UCI who are the
    motor in this.

    When first Hein V. started talking about this "pro tour" possibility last
    year, I understood it was a way to get rid of the miserable wild card
    invitation system, that managed to have poor teams like jean delatour (now
    rags semences) invited at the TdF instead of the Road Race World Champion's
    team.
    Also, it seemed a good way to revive historically important events like the
    Giro, that in the last few years had been skipped by too many teams.

    But what I see now does not correspond at all to what seemed Hein's early
    intention.

    To me, it seems there are 3 main flaws in the whole Pro-Tour concept:
    1) It still keeps too much space open for local wild cards. 18 teams
    systematically registered to all the main events are too few. This leaves
    space for other 4 non performing frog teams at the TdF. Since french
    cyclists and teams are becoming less and less competetive, what's the point
    about having almost 30 useless riders at the most famous race in the world?
    They reserved only 4 places for Italian pro teams, but the sponsor money
    here is such that there could be space for at least 5, maybe 6 top teams.
    Also just 2 for Belgium is really too few. Are they going to leave
    Chocolade Jacque, Landbouwkrediet, Caldirola and Domina out of this thing?

    2) As noted by cycling4all, you and others, the Pro Tour is too much based
    on stage racing. This goes against the cycling tradition, that is made
    essentially of 1 day races. Only the 10 present WC races, plus Worlds, G-W
    and FW are definitely too few. You talk about classic Flemish 1.1 events
    like Het Wolk, E3 and Grote Sheldeprijs being dropped, which surely is a
    sad thing, but even worst is the fact that the other 2 present 1.HC races
    had been dropped as well. I can't talk much about the GP Ouest France, a
    race I have watched just once, but the Giro del Lazio is really a great
    traditional race, which had been existing for about 80 years, with great
    winners in the past and still more recently and a really wonderful
    parcours, which includes a few steep climbs, like the cobbled Campi
    d'Annibale ("Hannibal's Fields) which really reminds the Muur or the Oude
    Kwaremont and, just a few kms from the race finish, the worst cobbled road
    out of Northern France, the Old Appia Road.
    There should have been at least other 10 one day races (what about
    Henninger Turm? and the Classique des Alpes? K-B-K? Brabantse Pijl?) in a
    well balanced "Pro Tour".

    3) There was really no need to change the official rankings. The present
    UCI classment and the World Cup had been an important term of comparison
    for all the cycling fans. It would have been much better to just create a
    large number of top teams obliged to run all the races while keeping the
    old ranking formulas.

    All in all this seems to me a "coup" by the part of the spanish teams and
    the others who like the (supposedly) modern way of racing, against the
    Italian and Belgian races and teams. I think that the 2 most important and
    traditional cycling federations should boycott this whole [censored].
    It's really a nonsense that the one ds who is most hated in the peloton
    (scumbag saiz) is the one who negotiated the whole thing.
    They presented the Pro-Tour in a way that looked like its goal was to
    preserve racing in those countries where it was disregarded by new cycling
    countries, but in fact it does just the opposite, it draws away from there.
    But, given that Belgium and Italy is where the most money around cycling
    and the main sponsors are, I think that there is still space for major
    changes in the Pro Tour, in case the right people complain with the
    appropriate strenght.

  6. I agree with the motivation behind Hein's actions with the PT. To want to
    give an incentive (or penalty) for the top riders to seriously ride a fuller
    season is laudable. However, I'm not certain that this is the best formula
    from a sporting perspective. With so few major one day races figuring into
    the mix, I'm not certain that a better balance will be struck. Certain
    regions seem to get a reaming.

    Questions. Wasn't there a requirement in the 1970s and 1980s that top
    riders race in certain races (classics mostly)? Couldn't they use something
    akin to a points system as used in the old Super Prestige Pernod to force
    riders focusing on one major race to at least decide to be competitive in
    summer (tours) and either spring or fall races?

    "Van Hoorebeeck Bart" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    http://www.cycling4all.com
    has a preliminary look at the calendar and point scales

    - Based on a calculations with 2003 results they conclude that
    year-round races are disfavoured, as opposed to the intentions. I don' t
    think this is true, Zabel and Petacchi fall away from the top of the
    ranking because stage results become marginal in the new calculation.
    The new calculation is not sprinter-friendly. This really is a drastic
    change.

    -But we see those who scored in (a few) main events (GTs/HC+ World Cup)
    come to the foreground (Vino, Hamilton, Ullrich), as opposed to those
    who score in whatever they race . This in istelf is rather good. But
    the change is really big, with the rudimentary points system limited to
    just these PT events.

    - Apparently teams will gain points on the team ranking in each event.
    This is remarkable, and reflects who was the teams' negotiator (Manolo
    Saiz). Well his colleagues who appointed him shouldn't be surprised or
    complain now.
    Also the lesser importance of single day racing in general is probably
    influenced by his strong position.

    - The regional aspect probably triggers most discussion. If they want
    promote cycling elsewhere, why keep 2 similar long races in Switzerland,
    instead of promiting one in Americas or Asia , as is the case in Poland
    ?
    Here in Belgium the 1.1 races are seen as evident victims of the new
    system (especially as we lack important stage races). The Flemish style
    racer has 3 events left in the new system. It makes more sense to build
    a team with men for the stage races and 'climbing' classics, and ride
    through the few other races (... as Saiz has always done)

    - I dont wanna blame Saiz for everything, as it are the UCI who are the
    motor in this.

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