Primary School - no cars, they walk or cycle

[David Lloyd]

On 20 Sep, 09:02, JNugent <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Marc Brett wrote:
> > JNugent <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>Marc Brett wrote:
> >>>JNugent <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>Geoff Lane wrote:
> >>>>>I thought that I read an article a few days ago about a primary school who
> >>>>>achieved zero cars on the school run and all the children walk or cycle to
> >>>>>school.
> >>>>What about the teachers?
> >>>Don't you worry yerself, Mr. Nugent. There are still some people there
> >>>who, like you, cling to their automothingies.
> >>It is teachers, other school staff and term-time parents released from
> >>school-holiday-absence from their jobs who make most of the traffic
> >>difference between term-time and holiday-time.
> > An interesting assertion. References?
>
> Does it need proof?
>
> Why else would it be that the traffic (in the SE at least) drops
> noticeably during school holidays even well outside the "school run"
> times? You can feel the difference at 06:45 and at 17:45, not just at
> dropping-off and picking-up time.
>
> Can you not see that all those people (as well as parents taking their
> children taking to school - by whatever mode) travel in the rush hour
> during term-time but do not do so during school holidays and half-term?
>
> Surely your place of work must have several "term-time-only" workers?
> I'd have thought most places have them in abundance nowadays. Not all
> of them even need be physically taking their children to school, but
> at least they aren't going to work.
>
>
>
> >>That means that
> >>castigating those involved in the "school run" is almost pointless.
> >>The difference cannot be ironed out, even if some foolish people think
> >>it can be.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

When the schools are off, it is not just the motorised traffic
associated with the schools that drops, it is the foot traffic aswell.
With the removal of school crossing patrols and the kids who use other
pedestrian crossings in the area, the other traffic that would usually
be delayed around schools is able to flow more freely.

David Lloyd (at work)

 

[Paul - xxx]

Andy Leighton wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:31:56 +0100,
> Paul - *** (mobile) <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I think it is obvious which is the worse problem for congestion. But
>>> I would think that the school should also look at putting together a
>>> travel plan for staff as well as pupils. It would help set a good
>>> example for the kids if they see some of the teachers come in on bikes
>>> or walk. In fact they may well have already done this - I don't know
>>> and I guess you don't know either.
>> Teachers, it was noted, are almost desperate NOT to have to give up
>> their cars, however good an example it might set. The cleaners and
>> kitchen staff are the opnly people who use bikes to get to school.
>> Indeed, Teachers wouldn't even consider giving up their cars. All the
>> LSA's said they'd consider walking/cycling, with various reasons
>> (weather, convenience, fitness) being cited both for and against it.
>
> I think that is quite depressing really. People aren't asking for
> everyone to walk or cycle all the time or indeed that it will be
> suitable for everyone. But people who don't even consider walking
> or cycling a couple of miles seems to be a result of the car being
> seen as a status symbol.

Wouldn't be so bad if they gave each other lifts, or did a car pool
thing maybe, which was suggested, but no, they all come in their own cars.

> I remember when I was at school (much smaller than yours) in the 70s
> there were very few teachers who drove in - partly because they wasn't
> any parking at the school. As I walk past the same school today there
> is a carpark which is full of about 10 cars.

If we have 10 cars, the car park's empty.

--
Paul - ***

 

[Clive George]

"Andy Leighton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I think that is quite depressing really. People aren't asking for
> everyone to walk or cycle all the time or indeed that it will be
> suitable for everyone. But people who don't even consider walking
> or cycling a couple of miles seems to be a result of the car being
> seen as a status symbol.

In the case of teachers, I'm not so sure about it being a status symbol, but
rather that "It's the done thing". "Need to carry xx books home for marking"
is the normal reason given, and I reckon this might have translated into a
general understanding that a car is "necessary".

Of course there's plenty of people like Tom giving the lie to this, but
they're very much a minority - possibly even seen as a strange and/or
superheroic one. ("he can do it, but I can't since I'm not as good as him")

cheers,
clive

 

[Andy Leighton]

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:53:36 +0100,
Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Andy Leighton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> I think that is quite depressing really. People aren't asking for
>> everyone to walk or cycle all the time or indeed that it will be
>> suitable for everyone. But people who don't even consider walking
>> or cycling a couple of miles seems to be a result of the car being
>> seen as a status symbol.
>
> In the case of teachers, I'm not so sure about it being a status symbol, but
> rather that "It's the done thing". "Need to carry xx books home for marking"
> is the normal reason given, and I reckon this might have translated into a
> general understanding that a car is "necessary".

That's not the case for infants though is it? My nephews don't do lots
of work which is marked outside of school. Even in juniors they
generally don't take in lots of homework every day - but even if they
did twenty school exercise books is hardly a massive load to carry.

--
Andy Leighton => [email protected]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

 

[Clive George]

"Andy Leighton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:53:36 +0100,
> Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Andy Leighton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> I think that is quite depressing really. People aren't asking for
>>> everyone to walk or cycle all the time or indeed that it will be
>>> suitable for everyone. But people who don't even consider walking
>>> or cycling a couple of miles seems to be a result of the car being
>>> seen as a status symbol.
>>
>> In the case of teachers, I'm not so sure about it being a status symbol,
>> but
>> rather that "It's the done thing". "Need to carry xx books home for
>> marking"
>> is the normal reason given, and I reckon this might have translated into
>> a
>> general understanding that a car is "necessary".
>
> That's not the case for infants though is it? My nephews don't do lots
> of work which is marked outside of school. Even in juniors they
> generally don't take in lots of homework every day - but even if they
> did twenty school exercise books is hardly a massive load to carry.

Bet you'll find similar rationalisations though.

I know teachers who cycle. It's obviously possible, but it's not percieved
as being so. Note I did put "necessary" in quotes - I don't actually believe
it.

cheers,
clive

 

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:57:50 +0100, JNugent
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Marc Brett wrote:
>
>> Paul Boyd <usenet.is.worse@plusnet> wrote:
>>>JNugent said the following on 20/09/2007 09:02:
>
>
>Nothing extraordinary about it at all ("this population" including
>parents who work term-time but not during school holidays). It is the
>only hypothesis which fits the observed facts (see the reply to
>another poster).
>
>What else do you say could account for the traffic level differences
>two hours (or more) away from school arrival and departure times, even
>outside peak package holiday periods?
>

In my office lots of full time staff take leave during school holidays
to be with their children. I would suggest that the number of people
on leave at any one time is greater during school holidays.

ME

 

[[email protected]]

On Sep 20, 2:06 pm, Andy Leighton <[email protected]> wrote:
> That's not the case for infants though is it? My nephews don't do lots
> of work which is marked outside of school. Even in juniors they
> generally don't take in lots of homework every day - but even if they
> did twenty school exercise books is hardly a massive load to carry.
>

More like a hundred exercise books, the class will be 30+ and there'll
be an english book, a maths book, a science book, probably more, plus
card, paper etc to make the flash cards/work sheets etc for the
following days lessons.

I think it might have changed now but when my parents were teaching,
infant teachers got no time to do any of this so it all got done at
home (or they would work late at the school).

Additionally, infant teachers never sit down, they're continually
moving from desk to desk and bending down to desks that are really
much too low so being able to relax into a comfy chair in a car at the
end of the day rather than spend more time hunched over a bike is
going to be hard to sell unless they are already very keen cyclists.
(Actually I'm amazed infant school teachers don't have more back
problems than they appear to do)

Tim.

 

[Andy Leighton]

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 08:29:15 -0700,
[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 20, 2:06 pm, Andy Leighton <[email protected]> wrote:
>> That's not the case for infants though is it? My nephews don't do lots
>> of work which is marked outside of school. Even in juniors they
>> generally don't take in lots of homework every day - but even if they
>> did twenty school exercise books is hardly a massive load to carry.
>>
>
> More like a hundred exercise books, the class will be 30+ and there'll
> be an english book, a maths book, a science book, probably more, plus
> card, paper etc to make the flash cards/work sheets etc for the
> following days lessons.

They set homework in all of those areas to be done all together and
marked together? Doesn't sound very organised. I am not doubting
that at some times a teacher will be ferrying raw materials back to
home, or completed stuff back to school but I do doubt that they will
need to do that every single work day.

> Additionally, infant teachers never sit down, they're continually
> moving from desk to desk and bending down to desks that are really
> much too low so being able to relax into a comfy chair in a car at the
> end of the day rather than spend more time hunched over a bike

Hunched over a bike? Choose the right bike and you don't hunch over
the handlebars.

--
Andy Leighton => [email protected]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

 

[Ekul Namsob]

Andy Leighton <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 08:29:15 -0700,
> [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Sep 20, 2:06 pm, Andy Leighton <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> That's not the case for infants though is it? My nephews don't do lots
> >> of work which is marked outside of school. Even in juniors they
> >> generally don't take in lots of homework every day - but even if they
> >> did twenty school exercise books is hardly a massive load to carry.

> > More like a hundred exercise books, the class will be 30+ and there'll
> > be an english book, a maths book, a science book, probably more, plus
> > card, paper etc to make the flash cards/work sheets etc for the
> > following days lessons.
>
> They set homework in all of those areas to be done all together and
> marked together? Doesn't sound very organised.

Students expect their classwork to be marked too.

> I am not doubting
> that at some times a teacher will be ferrying raw materials back to
> home, or completed stuff back to school but I do doubt that they will
> need to do that every single work day.

One reason why school teachers get long holidays is that they have a
tendency to work exceedingly hard during term time.

Secondary school teachers like me have it easy, IMHO, compared to those
in primary schools. Although all teachers now have the contractual right
to 10% PPA (Planning, Preparation and Assessment) time during the
timetabled school day, it is not possible for any dedicated teacher whom
I have ever met to complete all the necessary PPA during school hours.

Many of us have kids and therefore need to leave school in time to pick
them up from school. It is in the nature of schools that they tend not
to be very accessible by public transport. This is one reason why school
buses are common.

It takes me 20 minutes, on a slow day, to get to school by car. On a
good day, I would still be on the bus to the railway station, from where
I would need to catch two trains if I used public transport. My school
is in the unusual situation of being in the town centre. Primary schools
tends to be sited in far more obviously residential areas than secondary
schools and a lot of good teachers cannot afford to live within easy
walking or, even, cycling distance of the good schools.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

 

[Tom Crispin]

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:57:50 +0100, JNugent
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Nothing extraordinary about it at all ("this population" including
>parents who work term-time but not during school holidays). It is the
>only hypothesis which fits the observed facts (see the reply to
>another poster).
>
>What else do you say could account for the traffic level differences
>two hours (or more) away from school arrival and departure times, even
>outside peak package holiday periods?
>
>I don't think many of us believe that significant numbers of children
>or teachers have a two hour driven-commute to school, so there has to
>be another factor at work.

I am the travel plan champion at a large primary school in SE London.
I run a similar cycle training scheme to Liz Bowgett at New City
Primary School, though Liz runs a far more relaxed and less formal
scheme than mine and is more involved with walking initiatives. I
know Liz very well and have spent some time with her at New City.

Our pupils start to arrive for breakfast clubs from 7.30am, and
continue to arrive until 9am when school starts. The infants leave
school at 3.15pm, the juniors at 3.20pm, though many pupils take part
in extra curricula activities which may finish at 4.30pm, 5pm, 5.30pm
or 6pm. There is also an after school club and pupils attending may
be collected anytime between 3.30pm and 6pm.

In other words, not all pupils arrive at 9am and not all pupils go
home at 3.30pm. In secondary schools, the school day may be even more
staggered.

During my time as school travel plan champion there has been a modal
shift in the way pupils travel to school.

2004
Walk 58%
Driven 33%
Public transport 8%
Cycle 1%

2007
Walk 43%
Cycle 28%
Driven 19%
Public transport 10%

There has been no significant shift in the mode of transport for the
staff. But while 98% of our pupils live within 2 miles of the school,
only 50% of staff live within 2 miles.

 

[Tom Crispin]

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 13:06:43 -0000, Andy Leighton
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:53:36 +0100,
> Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Andy Leighton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> I think that is quite depressing really. People aren't asking for
>>> everyone to walk or cycle all the time or indeed that it will be
>>> suitable for everyone. But people who don't even consider walking
>>> or cycling a couple of miles seems to be a result of the car being
>>> seen as a status symbol.
>>
>> In the case of teachers, I'm not so sure about it being a status symbol, but
>> rather that "It's the done thing". "Need to carry xx books home for marking"
>> is the normal reason given, and I reckon this might have translated into a
>> general understanding that a car is "necessary".
>
>That's not the case for infants though is it? My nephews don't do lots
>of work which is marked outside of school. Even in juniors they
>generally don't take in lots of homework every day - but even if they
>did twenty school exercise books is hardly a massive load to carry.

20 books!?

More like:-
30 A4 English books,
32 C5 Maths books,
30 C4 Science folders.

They fill 2 Ortlieb panniers and make me go down hills like a bat out
of hell!

 

[Andy Leighton]

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 20:50:40 +0100,
Tom Crispin <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 13:06:43 -0000, Andy Leighton
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>That's not the case for infants though is it? My nephews don't do lots
>>of work which is marked outside of school. Even in juniors they
>>generally don't take in lots of homework every day - but even if they
>>did twenty school exercise books is hardly a massive load to carry.
>
> 20 books!?
>
> More like:-
> 30 A4 English books,
> 32 C5 Maths books,
> 30 C4 Science folders.
>
> They fill 2 Ortlieb panniers and make me go down hills like a bat out
> of hell!

Well it has all changed since my day then. We had thin A5 exercise
books and handed stuff homework in on loose-leaf sheets.

--
Andy Leighton => [email protected]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

 

[Dave Larrington]

In news:[email protected],
[email protected] <[email protected]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to
tell us:

> Additionally, infant teachers never sit down, they're continually
> moving from desk to desk and bending down to desks that are really
> much too low so being able to relax into a comfy chair in a car at the
> end of the day rather than spend more time hunched over a bike is
> going to be hard to sell unless they are already very keen cyclists.


Subsidised recumbents for infant teachers.

Problem solved

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
Although the hippopotamus hath no sting in its tail, the wise
man would rather be seated upon the back of a bee.

 

[JNugent]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:57:50 +0100, JNugent
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Marc Brett wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Paul Boyd <usenet.is.worse@plusnet> wrote:
>>>
>>>>JNugent said the following on 20/09/2007 09:02:
>>
>>
>>Nothing extraordinary about it at all ("this population" including
>>parents who work term-time but not during school holidays). It is the
>>only hypothesis which fits the observed facts (see the reply to
>>another poster).
>>
>>What else do you say could account for the traffic level differences
>>two hours (or more) away from school arrival and departure times, even
>>outside peak package holiday periods?
>>
>
>
> In my office lots of full time staff take leave during school holidays
> to be with their children. I would suggest that the number of people
> on leave at any one time is greater during school holidays.
>
> ME

And that is another factor.