Primary position and the law

in message <[email hidden]>, Mark

Tranchant (') said:

Is there anything in law that explicitly permits or encourages
cyclists to control the traffic through lane positioning where
appropriate? I have a copy of Cyclecraft on order, but that's just
RoSPA-approved advice, I understand.

No it isn't, it's an official Department of Transport publication.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and there was nothing we could do but wait
patiently for the RAC to arrive.

Sorry, can't answer your question, but can sympathise. A while ago I
was cycling well out from the kerb, approaching a blind bend, just
after which is a junction. I had my right arm out and could hear a car
approaching from the other direction. Needless to say, the car behind
decided to overtake. As the approaching car rounded the bend she
swerved violently to the left, I had to swerve and hit the kerb and the
car coming the other way did an emergency stop.

Now, I'm calmer than I might have once been, so decided to ignore this,
but as I passed her she wound down the window and shouted "you need a
f***ing licence!" I stopped and asked what she was on about, she
claimed I'd nearly caused an accident, what was I doing in "the middle
of the road" with my arm out? So, in a single manoeuvre: she overtakes
a vehicle indicating right, immediately before a junction, immediately
before a blind bend, with a vehicle coming the other way, and cuts in
on the vehicle she's overtaking. But she's not done anything wrong,
it's clearly the cyclist's fault for being in the way.

I honestly have no idea where drivers get this idea cyclists should be
in the gutter. I often have drivers shouting that I should be on the
left. When I explain I'm turning right, (that's why my right arm is
out) they say I should still be on the left!!!

Frankly, there's no point speaking to these sorts of drivers. They are
convinced they're right. They have strange ideas, for example: cyclists
MUST be on the cycle path if there's one within half a mile going
somewhere else. Cyclists must not cycle in the bus lane, even if the
signs show cycle symbols. It is fine to overtake and turn left as long
as you have passed by more than a foot. You don't have to give way to
cyclists because they don't pay road tax. Etc, etc. The thing is, no
amount of logic can persuade them any of these ideas are wrong. There's
absolutely no point saying anything whatsoever, all that will happen is
your blood pressure will rise.

Following on from iakobski's message. . .

Quoted message said:

I honestly have no idea where drivers get this idea cyclists should be
in the gutter. I often have drivers shouting that I should be on the
left. When I explain I'm turning right, (that's why my right arm is
out) they say I should still be on the left!!!

From the very many cyclists who (mistakenly) take that position.

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the deckchair business folded
[email hidden]
www.eminent.demon.co.uk - Lots for cyclists

Mark Tranchant said:

I got shouted at yesterday by a young woman in a Ka ...

I'm normally the first to join in when it comes to slagging off car
drivers, and it does sound like this woman you encountered deserves a
good slap, but for once I have a positive story to tell to balance your
experience...

Having moved house recently, I now live on a busy main [single
carriageway] road. A couple of years ago this road was "downgraded"
from NSL to 40, which has had the result of decreasing the average
speed of most cars from 75 to around 50, so I have been a bit concerned
about how I would fare cycling along this road.

Stretches of the road are quite narrow - certainly too narrow for a car
to pass a bike safely when there is traffic coming the other way. So I
have been particularly careful on these stretches to take the primary
position (aka hog the lane) and make sure no bugger thinks there's room
to pass.

And amazingly, I've not yet had so much as a single honk of the horn -
and certainly no-one taking the trouble to yell obscenities at me. This
really does surprise me - pleasantly so. I've even had bus drivers
waiting patiently behind me for a safe place to pass, including when
I've been going at no more than 10mph up the hilly bit (OK, 8mph), and
if you know the bus drivers round my way you'll understand how
astonishing that is.

Of course, some people do still try to overtake when it is not really
safe, and either pass very close to me or cut sharply across in front
of me to pull back in when there are cars coming the other way - but
the joy of using the primary position is that this still leaves me room
to get out of their way if necessary.

All very encouraging - and a huge endorsement for riding in the primary
position.

d.

Mark Tranchant said:

I got shouted at yesterday by a young woman in a Ka who was shocked to
find me riding in the middle of my lane whilst trying to overtake me as
we were both negotiating a left-hand junction in a 30mph zone with more
junctions ahead.

I didn't describe that particularly well, but rest assured, it was not a
safe place to overtake hence my lane positioning.

Needless to say, she did still overtake me, and then turned up a
cul-de-sac (at over 30mph, cutting over the lines, no indicators). I
followed her to ask what her problem was (fairly politely), and she
informed me that I should stick within an imaginary line 1m from the
kerb. Her authority?

"There's this thing called the Cycling Proficiency Test..."

Whilst not wishing to denigrate the CPT, that is a "how to not die,
kids" initial training course.

I could come up with a whole string of misdemeanours she had committed
(overtaking on junction, overtaking approaching junction, not
indicating, exceeding speed limit, leaving insufficient clearance to
cyclist) with HC references, but that wasn't "her problem".

Is there anything in law that *explicitly* permits or encourages
cyclists to control the traffic through lane positioning where
appropriate? I have a copy of Cyclecraft on order, but that's just
RoSPA-approved advice, I understand.

--
Mark.
http://tranchant.plus.com/

Recently I got overtaken by a 4x4 in a similar situation. When I caught
up with the driver at traffic lights I noticed that he was holding his
mobile to his right ear with his left hand.

(This is becoming a common sight on the roads, especially on
roundabouts. But why left hand on right ear?)

His door window was down and I could hear him complaining to someone. I
pulled up slowly and could see that in his right hand he had a
cigarette and a Starbucks coffee!

As I went past I shouted 'HEY' into his window. His startled response
caused his coffee to spill onto his trousers and made him hopping mad.
The lights changed to green and I turned right. As I looked back he was
still sorting himself out. Much Schadenfreuding was did.
Sean.

As I see at almost no single carriageway gives drivers enough room to
pass a bike safely without crossing the white line (the 6 feet gap has
been removed from the HC in favour of _as much room as you would give
any other vehicle_) so anyone approaching you from behind will need to
overtake you in a safe place. In practice though there are enough
numpties out there who simply don't take slow moving traffic into
account when bowling down bendy roads that I always keep my ears open
and am prepared to move right over to the left if need be. But where
exactly a bike should be on the road does not seem to have any official
line (other than in Cyclecraft)

"Peter Fox" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Following on from iakobski's message. . .

Quoted message said:

I honestly have no idea where drivers get this idea cyclists

should be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the gutter. I often have drivers shouting that I should be on

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

left. When I explain I'm turning right, (that's why my right arm

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

out) they say I should still be on the left!!!

From the very many cyclists who (mistakenly) take that position.

And the local councils who are increasingly striping off a special
ghetto-in-the gutter as our own private bicycle bantustan (the
stripes make you invisible, not invulnerable)

And organizations that publish design standards that say that
fietsapartheid is necessary on most roads unless the speed limit is
20 mph, and riding a bike where there are the speed limits of a rural
country lane is totally impossible (See the new London Cycling design
Standards, pp62-63, for example)

Jeremy Parker

"Mark Tranchant" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I got shouted at yesterday by a young woman in a Ka

First thing to note .. it's a Ka. They're bloody horrible. She has already
shown she makes bad decisions!

I'd probably have lost my rag in that position. But saying that, in my own
experience I don't.

Last winter I had a car cut me up in a similar situation. She then pulled up
and parked. She claimed i had been "wobbling all over the place". I was 5
miles into a cycle, coming back from a 1 hour swim. I was pumping. I was
concentrating, no way was I "wobbling all over the place".

Anyway, we had words. I suggested that she ought to rethink her current
situation. She's arguing with a 6+ft, 16 stone male adult who is wearing a
balaclava and who has his lumicycles currently blinding her. FFS, did she
think she was made of metal or something? This is South London, she really
needs to consider her well being, and arguning in the street with someone
who is wearing a balaclava and twice the size of her isn't the brightest of
ideas.

elyob said:

Anyway, we had words. I suggested that she ought to rethink her current
situation. She's arguing with a 6+ft, 16 stone male adult who is wearing a
balaclava and who has his lumicycles currently blinding her. FFS, did she
think she was made of metal or something? This is South London, she really
needs to consider her well being, and arguning in the street with someone
who is wearing a balaclava and twice the size of her isn't the brightest of
ideas.

Anyway, we had words. I suggested that he ought to rethink his current
situation. He's arguing with a drier of a 1 and a half ton vehicle painted
in black who has his high beams currently blinding him. FFS, does he hink
he was made of metal or something? This is the road, he really needs to
consider his well being, and arguing in the street with someone who is
driving a 4x4 and 10 times the size of him isn't the brightest of
ideas.

--
Nobby

sean said:

As I went past I shouted 'HEY' into his window. His startled response
caused his coffee to spill onto his trousers and made him hopping mad.
The lights changed to green and I turned right. As I looked back he was
still sorting himself out. Much Schadenfreuding was did.

Fantastic. :-)

"Mark Tranchant" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I got shouted at yesterday by a young woman in a Ka who was shocked to
find me riding in the middle of my lane whilst trying to overtake me as we
were both negotiating a left-hand junction in a 30mph zone with more
junctions ahead.

I didn't describe that particularly well, but rest assured, it was not a
safe place to overtake hence my lane positioning.

Needless to say, she did still overtake me, and then turned up a
cul-de-sac (at over 30mph, cutting over the lines, no indicators). I
followed her to ask what her problem was (fairly politely), and she
informed me that I should stick within an imaginary line 1m from the kerb.
Her authority?

"There's this thing called the Cycling Proficiency Test..."

Whilst not wishing to denigrate the CPT, that is a "how to not die, kids"
initial training course.

I could come up with a whole string of misdemeanours she had committed
(overtaking on junction, overtaking approaching junction, not indicating,
exceeding speed limit, leaving insufficient clearance to cyclist) with HC
references, but that wasn't "her problem".

Is there anything in law that *explicitly* permits or encourages cyclists
to control the traffic through lane positioning where appropriate? I have
a copy of Cyclecraft on order, but that's just RoSPA-approved advice, I
understand.

--
Mark.
http://tranchant.plus.com/

As a cyclist and a motorist, I do try to keep to the left as much as
possible with an exception where there is an artificial constriction in the
road, such as an island. Therefore I see cycling in the middle of a lane
seems perhaps a little antisocial. We'll have to take your word it was an
appropriate line to take.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As a cyclist and a motorist

I imagine many, if not most, of the posters here drive as well as
cycle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We'll have to take your word it was an appropriate line to take.

The car behind him was turning left - are you really suggesting it
would be appropriate to keep well over to the left and allow the car
behind to overtake while negotiating the junction?

Fred said:

"Mark Tranchant" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I got shouted at yesterday by a young woman in a Ka who was shocked to
find me riding in the middle of my lane

As a cyclist and a motorist, I do try to keep to the left as much as
possible with an exception where there is an artificial constriction in the
road, such as an island. Therefore I see cycling in the middle of a lane
seems perhaps a little antisocial. We'll have to take your word it was an
appropriate line to take.

In free flowing uban traffic, if there is not enough room to overtake a
cyclist in teh primary position then I do not feel confident enough to
cycle in a postition that even gives the /impression/ that there might
be room to overtake me without actually hitting me. When there
actually is a car waiting to overtake me in these circumstances I will
evaluate the situation and if I feel it is safe enough I will drop into
the secondary position to facilitate an overtaking manouvre. A mirror
makes it easier to make these judgements IME. All this changes in
congested traffic of course

bestw ishes
james

Fred said:

As a cyclist and a motorist, I do try to keep to the left as much as
possible with an exception where there is an artificial constriction in the
road, such as an island.

You may well do, but you're not doing yourself any favours on many
occasions, as the instruction manuals for roadcraft will tell you.

Quoted message said:

Therefore I see cycling in the middle of a lane
seems perhaps a little antisocial.

Why? Overtaking should be done according to HC Rule 139 which would put
you well over in any case. A cycle out there just forces you to
overtake /as you should be doing anyway/.

I'd sooner be "antisocial" in such a way than in A&E or the morgue,
which would quite possibly be the consequence of riding in the gutter.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Fox said:

Following on from iakobski's message. . .

Quoted message said:

I honestly have no idea where drivers get this idea cyclists should be
in the gutter. I often have drivers shouting that I should be on the
left. When I explain I'm turning right, (that's why my right arm is
out) they say I should still be on the left!!!

From the very many cyclists who (mistakenly) take that position.

And the many pretty pictures in the HC that depict the cyclist decidedly
Gutter-Oriented.

"Nobody Here" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

elyob said:

Anyway, we had words. I suggested that she ought to rethink her current
situation. She's arguing with a 6+ft, 16 stone male adult who is wearing
a
balaclava and who has his lumicycles currently blinding her. FFS, did she
think she was made of metal or something? This is South London, she
really
needs to consider her well being, and arguning in the street with someone
who is wearing a balaclava and twice the size of her isn't the brightest
of
ideas.

Anyway, we had words. I suggested that he ought to rethink his current
situation. He's arguing with a drier of a 1 and a half ton vehicle
painted
in black who has his high beams currently blinding him. FFS, does he hink
he was made of metal or something? This is the road, he really needs to
consider his well being, and arguing in the street with someone who is
driving a 4x4 and 10 times the size of him isn't the brightest of
ideas.

Except she'd gotten out of the vehicle as she had parked up. It'd still be
hard to mow down a cyclist if he/she knew what you were doing. I had this
pleasant experience on Danebury Avenue. Some wide boy trying to run me over,
even chasing me the wrong side of some bollards. Didn't mount the kerb after
me though.

"iakobski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As a cyclist and a motorist

I imagine many, if not most, of the posters here drive as well as
cycle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We'll have to take your word it was an appropriate line to take.

The car behind him was turning left - are you really suggesting it
would be appropriate to keep well over to the left and allow the car
behind to overtake while negotiating the junction?

He said he was also turning left. I assume he signalled to do so?

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Fred said:

As a cyclist and a motorist, I do try to keep to the left as much as
possible with an exception where there is an artificial constriction in
the road, such as an island.

You may well do, but you're not doing yourself any favours on many
occasions, as the instruction manuals for roadcraft will tell you.

Quoted message said:

Therefore I see cycling in the middle of a lane seems perhaps a little
antisocial.

Why? Overtaking should be done according to HC Rule 139 which would put
you well over in any case. A cycle out there just forces you to overtake
/as you should be doing anyway/.

I'd sooner be "antisocial" in such a way than in A&E or the morgue, which
would quite possibly be the consequence of riding in the gutter.

Pete.

HC rule 139 is not clear and very unhelpful. Personally I would generally
give more clearance to a cyclist than a car.

Yes I accept that seemingly antisocial behaviour is acceptable in many
instances to reduce risk. However the story given by the OP doesn't suggest
this was one of them.

"Fred" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"iakobski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> As a cyclist and a motorist

I imagine many, if not most, of the posters here drive as well as
cycle.

Quoted message said:

> We'll have to take your word it was an appropriate line to take.

The car behind him was turning left - are you really suggesting it
would be appropriate to keep well over to the left and allow the car
behind to overtake while negotiating the junction?

He said he was also turning left. I assume he signalled to do so?

He didn't mention. But would it make any difference?

FWIW I wouldn't normally signal left on a bike for emerging from minor to
major road on a T junction - especially if the lane was marked as being for
left-turning traffic only. There's nothing to be gained from such a signal -
road positioning gives more than sufficient information.

clive