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Pride of Reading?

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UK and Europe
Published
21 September 2005
Last activity
18 October 2005
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Just zis Guy, you know?
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  1. Apparently Fat Angie has been nominated for the Pride of Reading
    awards (run by the Reading Post). Whether it is her tenacity in
    clinging to bogus data long after it's been proven wrong, her long
    history of lying, her ability to mislead MPs and doctors, or her
    tireless campaigning to distract attention away from the principal
    cause of child head injuries which is considered especially admirable
    is not particularly clear from the report in the paper...

    Guy
    --
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    "To every complex problem there is a solution which is
    simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

  2. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Apparently Fat Angie has been nominated for the Pride of Reading
    awards (run by the Reading Post). Whether it is her tenacity in
    clinging to bogus data long after it's been proven wrong, her long
    history of lying, her ability to mislead MPs and doctors, or her
    tireless campaigning to distract attention away from the principal
    cause of child head injuries which is considered especially admirable
    is not particularly clear from the report in the paper...

    Guy

    You writing a response to the paper???

    Cheers, helen s

  3. I submit that on or about Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:11:54 +0100, the person
    known to the court as "wafflycat"
    <waffles*$*A**T*v21net$*££*D*O*T*co*D£$£*O*T*uk> made a statement
    (<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle) to the
    following effect:

    Quoted message said:

    You writing a response to the paper???

    I suppose so. Last time I got the full child molester treatment for
    daring to suggest that cycling without a plastic hat is not
    immediately and inevitably lethal, thus no doubt ensuring that some
    child somewhere rode without one and was immediately killed in a
    collision where they would have been completely unharmed had they worn
    one.

    Guy
    --
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    "To every complex problem there is a solution which is
    simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

  4. Just zis Guy said:

    I submit that on or about Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:11:54 +0100, the person
    known to the court as "wafflycat"
    <waffles*$*A**T*v21net$*££*D*O*T*co*D£$£*O*T*uk> made a statement
    (<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle) to the
    following effect:

    Quoted message said:

    You writing a response to the paper???

    I suppose so. Last time I got the full child molester treatment for
    daring to suggest that cycling without a plastic hat is not
    immediately and inevitably lethal, thus no doubt ensuring that some
    child somewhere rode without one and was immediately killed in a
    collision where they would have been completely unharmed had they worn
    one.

    Guy
    --
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    "To every complex problem there is a solution which is
    simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

    I have found the Exeter study to be easy for people to understand and
    persuasive. "Twice as many girls as boys wear cycle helmets but they
    have exactly the same head injury rate."

    --
    Tony

    "I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
    Anon

  5. you know? said:

    I suppose so. Last time I got the full child molester treatment for
    daring to suggest that cycling without a plastic hat is not
    immediately and inevitably lethal, thus no doubt ensuring that some
    child somewhere rode without one and was immediately killed in a
    collision where they would have been completely unharmed had they worn
    one.

    There's an interesting side effect to my school governors making cycle
    hemet wearing compulsory for cycle training.

    Last term when helmets were optional all children came to school for
    every training session with a helmet. The parents knew that if they
    didn't have a helmet and they had signed (as they all did) that they
    wanted their child to wear one, I would not take them out.

    This term, with helmet wearing compulsory, and the school has a stock
    of helmets, several children come to school for training sessions
    without helmets. Some parents put the responsibility for helmet
    provision onto me.

  6. Tony Raven said:

    I have found the Exeter study to be easy for people to understand and
    persuasive. "Twice as many girls as boys wear cycle helmets but they
    have exactly the same head injury rate."

    Does this study include the distance and time that each gender rode
    their bikes, and adjust for skill levels, which vary by gender and age?
    What were the ages that were studied? Are they referring to an absolute
    rate of head injuries, or head injuries as percentage of total injuries?

    In one UK study I read, the number of head injuries as a percentage of
    total injuries decreased by about half as helmet use tripled, but they
    didn't state what happened in terms of total injuries. Maybe total
    injuries quadrupled as helmet use went up, so in absolute terms the
    number of head injuries stayed the same, they didn't say.

    Soundbites like "Twice as many girls as boys wear cycle helmets but they
    have exactly the same head injury rate" are cute, but they are usually
    intended to mislead naive people into making incorrect conclusions, from
    incomplete data.

    I wouldn't worry about Angie Lee getting such an obscure award. It is
    true that she appears to be way too single-minded in terms of
    concentrating on helmets as a way to reduce head injuries, and her
    efforts at compulsion are extremely misguided. OTOH her efforts to
    encourage voluntary helmet use have been very effective. If someone else
    can take up the cause of better rider education and training then
    that'll be great, but don't begrudge her the success she's had. Every
    study on the subject has reached the same conclusion, helmets reduce the
    number of head injuries when crashes occur.

    Steve
    --
    http://drivetoschoolhallofshame.com
    http://bicyclelighting.com
    http://bicycleshortlist.com

  7. you know? said:

    I suppose so. Last time I got the full child molester treatment for
    daring to suggest that cycling without a plastic hat is not immediately
    and inevitably lethal,

    Nowt wrong with parents getting their children cycle helmets.
    But your point is valid - there is no substitute for supervision,
    training in road safety and general nous.

    When running a stand at Car-Free day last Sunday, I talked to a parent,
    and noticed her child had a helmet with a strap dangling round the chin
    by a good few inches.
    I said that the helmet was useless unless she tightened it up.
    She said that she realised this, but the strap would not tighten further.
    It seemed to me that the strap had a wide padded 'tube' on the chin,
    preventing further tightening.
    I advised strongly to take it back to the shop, at least for some
    instructions.

    This parent is in no way in the wrong, but helmets should at least fit
    well without needing complicated origami.

  8. I submit that on or about Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:04:08 GMT, the person
    known to the court as SMS <[email hidden]> made a statement
    (<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle) to the
    following effect:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I have found the Exeter study to be easy for people to understand and
    persuasive. "Twice as many girls as boys wear cycle helmets but they
    have exactly the same head injury rate."

    Quoted message said:

    Does this study include the distance and time that each gender rode
    their bikes, and adjust for skill levels, which vary by gender and age?
    What were the ages that were studied? Are they referring to an absolute
    rate of head injuries, or head injuries as percentage of total injuries?

    LOL! I love the way that sceptical papers have to meet standards of
    rigour which pro-helmet papers have never achieved!

    What the Exeter study shows IMO is what every other small-scale study
    shows, if you probe the data: the difference in %HI between different
    cyclist populations is pretty much independent of helmet use, and very
    dependent on riding style.

    Look at the data from the most widely-cited study, the 1989 Seattle
    study. The "reduction" in head injuries in the helmeted population
    was the same, to within a few percent, as the reduction in lower limb
    injuries.

    Quoted message said:

    In one UK study I read, the number of head injuries as a percentage of
    total injuries decreased by about half as helmet use tripled, but they
    didn't state what happened in terms of total injuries. Maybe total
    injuries quadrupled as helmet use went up, so in absolute terms the
    number of head injuries stayed the same, they didn't say.

    Cite. I know a number of UK studies, this sounds a bit like Crook &
    Feikh, who made an elementary statistical error in their
    interpretation (their data shows that helmets are 186% effective,
    protecting people who aren't even wearing them). They made other
    errors, too, for example inverting the sign of the helmet use curve
    for children.

    Quoted message said:

    Soundbites like "Twice as many girls as boys wear cycle helmets but they
    have exactly the same head injury rate" are cute, but they are usually
    intended to mislead naive people into making incorrect conclusions, from
    incomplete data.

    LOL! Soundbytes like "helmets prevent 85% of head injuries" are cute,
    but they are usually intended to mislead naive people into making
    incorrect conclusions, from incomplete data.

    Angie's entire programme is in fact founded on misleading soundbytes!
    One of the problems with the sceptical case is it does not easily
    render into "BIKE DANGER!" and "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" type
    soundbytes, which is the stock-in-trade of obsessive-compulsives like
    Angie.

    Here's a list of some false claims made by Angie and BeHIT:
    http://www.cyclehelmets.org/mf.html?1058 - most of these have been
    repeated even after they have been told they are wrong, and in one
    case they agreed with the Advertising Standards Authority not to
    repeat a claim, which they promptly repeated in their next press
    release.

    Quoted message said:

    I wouldn't worry about Angie Lee getting such an obscure award. It is
    true that she appears to be way too single-minded in terms of
    concentrating on helmets as a way to reduce head injuries, and her
    efforts at compulsion are extremely misguided. OTOH her efforts to
    encourage voluntary helmet use have been very effective.

    For some values of effective. According to her own studies (the data,
    not the conclusions, obviously!) her efforts actually increased head
    injury rates in Reading.

    But her major achievement lies in distracting attention away from the
    real cause of serious child head injury, which is motor traffic (only
    a minority of these victims are cyclists). The helmet promotion lobby
    have built the perception that cycling, not driving, is dangerous, and
    that plastic hats are an effective remedy. Both these are false. Many
    people now believe that wearing a helmet is the first, best thing a
    cyclist can do for their safety, which is an absurd and dangerous
    fantasy. Angie herself describes helmet promotion as "helping
    children to cycle safely" - but there is no known correlation between
    helmet use and cyclist safety, anywhere in the world, according to our
    former (pro-helmet) road safety minister. Angie wants a helmet law,
    not cyclist safety. If she cared about cyclist safety she'd be
    campaigning against dangerous driving and poor road design, both of
    which have far more effect.

    Quoted message said:

    If someone else
    can take up the cause of better rider education and training then
    that'll be great, but don't begrudge her the success she's had. Every
    study on the subject has reached the same conclusion, helmets reduce the
    number of head injuries when crashes occur.

    False. The largest study ever conducted (Rodgers) reached the
    opposite conclusions, as you have been told numerous times, and every
    population-levels study has reached either a null result or shown an
    increase in head injury rates with increasing helmet use. The fact
    that you refuse to accept these studies does not make them go away.

    For any urcers who do not know, Scharf styles himself as "one of
    Earth's leading experts on cycle helmets". According to him the
    tactics used by CTC and others in opposing the Martlew bill cannot
    work because helmets are, in fact, massively protective, and everybody
    knows this. He also styles himself as "one of Earth's leading
    experts on bicycle lighting" and assures all his readers that dynamo
    lights are woefully inadequate and cannot be trusted.

    Under a different email address he killfiled Frank Krygowski and me
    for daring to challenge him (repeatedly) to cite evidence for some of
    his claims. I look forward to seeing how he gets on with Dr Raven :-)

    Guy
    --
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    "To every complex problem there is a solution which is
    simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

  9. SMS said:

    Does this study include the distance and time that each gender rode
    their bikes, and adjust for skill levels, which vary by gender and age?
    What were the ages that were studied? Are they referring to an absolute
    rate of head injuries, or head injuries as percentage of total injuries?

    Ages are up to 16, 'cause that's what the STATs 19 dataset which was the
    study basis looked at. It looks purely at road incidents, and goes into
    some detail explaining everything it's saying and where the problems
    are. Have a read is the best way to see what you think.

    Quoted message said:

    Soundbites like "Twice as many girls as boys wear cycle helmets but they
    have exactly the same head injury rate" are cute, but they are usually
    intended to mislead naive people into making incorrect conclusions, from
    incomplete data.

    Like I said, have a read. It comes over to me as someone making a point
    of drawing attention to the potential holes in the study (i.e., doing a
    proper job) rather than "proving" a predetermined conclusion.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  10. SMS said:

    Every
    study on the subject has reached the same conclusion, helmets reduce the
    number of head injuries when crashes occur.

    Please read www.cyclehelmets.org to discover why "every study" is not
    quite as great an argument as you might think.

    Jon

  11. Response to SMS:

    Quoted message said:

    Soundbites like "Twice as many girls as boys wear cycle helmets but they
    have exactly the same head injury rate" are cute, but they are usually
    intended to mislead naive people into making incorrect conclusions, from
    incomplete data.

    Quoted message said:

    Every
    study on the subject has reached the same conclusion, helmets reduce the
    number of head injuries when crashes occur.

    *Excellent* start to the day! :-D

    --
    Mark, UK

    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."

  12. John Hearns said:

    Nowt wrong with parents getting their children cycle helmets.
    But your point is valid - there is no substitute for supervision,
    training in road safety and general nous.

    And of course every day I see kids riding on the sidewalk and/or against
    traffic, while wearing a helmet. It's extremely dangerous when school is
    about to begin, and the SUV/minivan crowd is in full force. They aren't
    looking for bicycles coming the wrong way down the road, or the sidewalk.

    Quoted message said:

    When running a stand at Car-Free day last Sunday, I talked to a parent,
    and noticed her child had a helmet with a strap dangling round the chin
    by a good few inches.
    I said that the helmet was useless unless she tightened it up.
    She said that she realised this, but the strap would not tighten further.

    I often see helmets tilted way too far back on the head. Some newer
    models have much better fitment systems.

  13. Just zis Guy said:
    Quoted message said:

    Does this study include the distance and time that each gender rode
    their bikes, and adjust for skill levels, which vary by gender and age?
    What were the ages that were studied? Are they referring to an absolute
    rate of head injuries, or head injuries as percentage of total injuries?

    LOL! I love the way that sceptical papers have to meet standards of
    rigour which pro-helmet papers have never achieved!

    You answered the question. The Exter study was not rigorous.

  14. in message <[email hidden]>, SMS

    (') said:

    wouldn't worry about Angie Lee getting such an obscure award. It is
    true that she appears to be way too single-minded in terms of
    concentrating on helmets as a way to reduce head injuries, and her
    efforts at compulsion are extremely misguided. OTOH her efforts to
    encourage voluntary helmet use have been very effective.

    Yup; but if, as the available data seems to show, wearing a helmet on the
    road is actually more dangerous than not wearing one, then this is /not/
    a good thing.

    Until we have more data, trying to persuade people either way is
    extremely irresponsible.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ((DoctorWho)ChristopherEccleston).act();
    uk.co.bbc.TypecastException: actor does not want to be typecast.
    [adapted from autofile on /., 31/03/05]

  15. Jon Senior said:
    SMS said:

    Every study on the subject has reached the same conclusion, helmets
    reduce the number of head injuries when crashes occur.

    Please read www.cyclehelmets.org to discover why "every study" is not
    quite as great an argument as you might think.

    I have read much of the material on that site. A lot of it is cleverly
    written, but bogus to the extreme. I can see how someone that is
    untrained in critical thinking could look at that site and be taken in
    by it. The site often states, as facts, results that are attributable
    not to helmet use or helmet laws, but to other societal changes. Very
    similar to some of the bogus medical studies that claim specific
    benefits of a certain food or supplement in reducing the occurence of
    certain diseases, without looking at the lifestyles of the persons that
    use the products.

    You have to be very careful when you make claims that a certain outcome
    is due to specific causes, and this site doesn't meet that criteria.

  16. SMS said:
    Just zis Guy said:
    Quoted message said:

    Does this study include the distance and time that each gender rode
    their bikes, and adjust for skill levels, which vary by gender and
    age? What were the ages that were studied? Are they referring to an
    absolute rate of head injuries, or head injuries as percentage of
    total injuries?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    LOL! I love the way that sceptical papers have to meet standards of
    rigour which pro-helmet papers have never achieved!

    Quoted message said:

    You answered the question. The Exter study was not rigorous.

    No, you /inferred/ that answer, which is hardly applying rigorous
    standards, is it?

    Read the paper yourself and come back with criticisms then, and also
    send them in to the publishing journal.

    We have read it, you haven't, we're in a better position to know what it
    says than you are. Only someone totally uninterested in genuinely
    rigorous evaluation of evidence would write off a serious piece of work
    on an inference, and that's exactly what you just did. Hoist by your
    own petard.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  17. Peter Clinch said:

    Like I said, have a read. It comes over to me as someone making a point
    of drawing attention to the potential holes in the study (i.e., doing a
    proper job) rather than "proving" a predetermined conclusion.

    Is that study available on-line?

    I find that many studies, both pro and con in the helmet debate, will
    either intentionally or unintentionally leave out some critical piece of
    data. It is always a good idea to ask, "what else changed?" I.e. the
    study reported in the American Academy of Pediatrics showed about a 750%
    increase in helmet use from 1987 to 1992, and a 67% reduction in head
    injuries, for the same HMO. How much of that reduction is attributible
    to helmet use? Maybe there was some massive program of cyclist education
    during that five year period, or maybe there were changes in
    infrastructure or equipment.

  18. SMS said:

    I have read much of the material on that site. A lot of it is cleverly
    written, but bogus to the extreme. I can see how someone that is
    untrained in critical thinking could look at that site and be taken in
    by it.

    Oddly, numerous professional scientists reading here who /are/ trained
    in critical thinking have far more problems with your line than any that
    might be found at cyclehelmets.org.

    Since you "proved" the Exeter study referred to was bogus from a minor
    inference you have demonstrated an inability to overcome your prejudices
    with truly critical thinking, so how would *you* know it's bogus?

    Quoted message said:

    You have to be very careful when you make claims that a certain outcome
    is due to specific causes, and this site doesn't meet that criteria.

    One good point about cyclehelmets.org is the site uses careful language
    to show when there are limits to the confidence of any claims. Unlike
    your own language, which fails your own tests. But since you are
    evidently bad at critical thinking, you haven't even realised that your
    criticisms apply more to your own words than those being cited by others.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  19. SMS said:
    Jon Senior said:

    SMS wrote:

    I have read much of the material on that site. A lot of it is cleverly
    written, but bogus to the extreme. I can see how someone that is untrained
    in critical thinking could look at that site and be taken in by it.

    Should be safe for me though.
    John Hearns, BSc. PhD.

  20. John Hearns said:
    SMS said:
    Jon Senior said:

    SMS wrote:

    I have read much of the material on that site. A lot of it is cleverly
    written, but bogus to the extreme. I can see how someone that is untrained
    in critical thinking could look at that site and be taken in by it.

    Should be safe for me though.
    John Hearns, BSc. PhD.

    Me too
    David Martin BSc PhD

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