Prevailing wisdom on front lights?

Cateye's brightest LED light, the Tripleshot (3 x 3W) only comes with a
battery pack rated to 3.3 hours. Their 2 x 3W headlight lasts 5 hours.
You may be able to get away with the 1W EL510 light. They will last 60
hours and two of them combined will give you a very focused spot light
so you can avoid things coming directly at you, but you won't see much
to the sides.

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 01:24:23 +0100, "Ivar Hesselager"

may have said:

What is the current wisdom on LEDs?

I have little wisdom, but some experience to offer.

With a suitable battery pack, the Cateye Double Shot and Triple Shot
would, in my opinion, be suitable for what you describe. The 500,
though rated lower in output than the 530, provides more useful light
in my experience...and while both provide nearly the level of
illumination that I'd want for riding in unlit areas on reliably
maintained roads, neither alone would make me confident in such
circumstances. On the other hand, one of each (my current setup) does
a fairly good job. Both are so brilliant that I get automobile
drivers flashing their high beams at me. Cycling headlamps that I
have used have not yet progressed to the level of design efficiency
that will provide an effective upward cutoff.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Ivar Hesselager said:

In my daily/nightly commuting I use a SON dynahub with at 3 volt lamp, and
for my commuting I don't need it better than that. But for the P-B-P
event I must have the best light - which also requries the consideration
of weight as well as rolling resistance.

For my commute, I ride on an unlit path along a river for 10 miles,
which this time of year is dark both when going to work and coming
home.

I use a SON or a Shimano DH-3N71 dynamo (depending which bike I'm
riding that day) with a Busch & Mueller dLumotec LED lamp. I'd
previously used a Shimano LP-R600 Halogen lamp, as well as a Planet
Bike Alias rechargeable system with a 10w Halogen Lamp.

While the dynohub is not as bright as the battery-powered system,
running time on any battery-powered system will be a problem. If
you're doing PBP, where you're likely to be riding well after dark, I
would not consider a battery-powered solution unless you had a means by
which to have it recharged during the day.

For many hours spent riding in the dark, without a place to recharge a
battery, my ideal solution is a SON with either a Schmidt E6 or B+M
lamp. I prefer the LED model, because it's at its full brightness at
about 5mph.

Hank Wirtz said:

Ivar Hesselager said:

In my daily/nightly commuting I use a SON dynahub with at 3 volt lamp, and
for my commuting I don't need it better than that. But for the P-B-P
event I must have the best light - which also requries the consideration
of weight as well as rolling resistance.

For my commute, I ride on an unlit path along a river for 10 miles,
which this time of year is dark both when going to work and coming
home.

I use a SON or a Shimano DH-3N71 dynamo (depending which bike I'm
riding that day) with a Busch & Mueller dLumotec LED lamp. I'd
previously used a Shimano LP-R600 Halogen lamp, as well as a Planet
Bike Alias rechargeable system with a 10w Halogen Lamp.

While the dynohub is not as bright as the battery-powered system,
running time on any battery-powered system will be a problem. If
you're doing PBP, where you're likely to be riding well after dark, I
would not consider a battery-powered solution unless you had a means by
which to have it recharged during the day.

For many hours spent riding in the dark, without a place to recharge a
battery, my ideal solution is a SON with either a Schmidt E6 or B+M
lamp. I prefer the LED model, because it's at its full brightness at
about 5mph.

I also use a Shimano DH-3N71 and a B&M d'Lumotec Oval N Plus. For my
eyes, the d'Lumotec provides just enough light in a dark environment.
However, I do find myself wishing for more light when an oncoming car's
headlights hit my eyes. You might want to run a d'Lumotec and a Schmidt
E6 secondary with your SON. There are no batteries to recharge, as Hank
points out, and the LED won't burn out. I suppose a small
battery-powered light might be a good thing to bring for roadside
repairs and reading maps.

Stephen Greenwood

Ivar Hesselager said:

As an experienced night rider I have for some time enjoyed the
unchallenged belief, that I know all I need to know about bicycle lights.
Fx. that LED light may be good to BE SEEN by, but not good enought to SEE
by, if you ride 20 mph on dark country roads.

This is my own experience from many years of late evening commuting (100
days a year) and I have often read and heard others support this
apparantly prevailing wisdom.

As I am preparing for another four night Paris-Brest-Paris ride this
coming august, I would like to know if the research and development in low
energy LED-technology has advanced so much, that you can use these lights
to ride 20 mph on really dark roads.

The - otherwise very conservative - regulations of Audax Club Parisien
have been changed this year, allowing the use of LED-lights as prime light
source on P-B-P. (They were formerly allowed as backup-lights only). I
have recently seem the claim, that the newest LED-lights from Cateye - I
dont know which - should be able to give sufficient light for 20 hours on
one set of batteries. But can they match the light of a halogen lamp?

In my daily/nightly commuting I use a SON dynahub with at 3 volt lamp,

You did not mention if you have a Schmidt E6 3 watt light. The Schmidt
E6 light is superior to all of the other cheap 3 watt hub driven
lights. I have two of the E6 lights powered by the Shimano DH-3N70
generator hub. Good thing you have the Schmidt hub because the Shimano
has plenty of drag. The secondary E6 does not add all that much extra
light. Definitely not a doubling of the light. If money is no object,
then add the E6 secondary. Otherwise, just go for the E6 as the
primary hub driven light only. One important consideration is where
you mount the front light. I highly recommend the Minoura Besso fork
mounts. Far sturdier than the Cronometro Nob plastic things. Put the
front lights right down by the front hub for best illumination of the
road. For LED, get a helmet light such as the Nite Hawk Emitter. Runs
9+ hours on 4AA batteries. Use it to see the arrow signs on the side
of the road and read the cue sheet and computer and road signs. And it
can serve as a primary light if something were to happen to the Schmidt
light or lights.

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=&subcategory=&brand=1184&sku=13291&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Shop%20by%20Brand%3A%20Minoura

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=&subcategory=&brand=5048&sku=18910&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Shop%20by%20Brand%3A%20Nite%20Hawk

and

Quoted message said:

for my commuting I don't need it better than that. But for the P-B-P
event I must have the best light - which also requries the consideration
of weight as well as rolling resistance.

What is the current wisdom on LEDs?

Ivar of Denmark

--
Sendt med Operas banebrydende postklient:
http://www.opera.com/mail/

In article <op.tl552xaq1c91w4@d3q5wk2j>,

Ivar Hesselager said:

What is the current wisdom on LEDs?

You should *only* buy LEDs because the high-output ones have known
suppliers that give an actual lumens rating of light output. All other
kinds seem more interested in advertising the amount of power consumed
rather than the amount of light given.

--
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, 4ax.com, buzzardnews.com, googlegroups.com,
heapnode.com, localhost, x-privat.org

Here's a picture comparing various LEDs:
https://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=914

tiborg said:

Here's a picture comparing various LEDs:
https://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=914

That's interesting, I've got a Blackburn combo off of amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Blackburn-Quadrant-Combo-Bicycle-Light/dp/B000BNZ0ME/sr=8-2/qid=1168867751/ref=sr_1_2/103-3281824-2531846?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods

Rode at night just a test ride in front of house last week. Not bad.
But when just tried to look up watts on
google, the only measure found was "tons of light", lol.

With high power car lights now, comparably, it would be scarey riding
at night on a bike. On a 8 lane city highway, some clown had an old 40
year old type that was powered by wheel edge turning a motor. I
couldn't even see his taillight AT ALL! I only saw his shadow from
store lights blocked partially as passed right beside him. It scared me
that bad that didn't see him, and glad I didn't hear a thud.

That guy will be road meat. So LED flashing lights to be seen may not
be too bad, for tail lights anyway.
But to see objects good enough to avoid road debree, a high power light
would seem needed. But I am just comfortable riding with both lights
flashing in day on weekends, so night time riding would be risky for
myself; and only if I didn't have a license or car/motorcycle.

ddog said:

tiborg said:

Here's a picture comparing various LEDs:
https://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=914

That's interesting, I've got a Blackburn combo off of amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Blackburn-Quadrant-Combo-Bicycle-Light/dp/B000BNZ0ME/sr=8-2/qid=1168867751/ref=sr_1_2/103-3281824-2531846?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods

Rode at night just a test ride in front of house last week. Not bad.
But when just tried to look up watts on
google, the only measure found was "tons of light", lol.

With high power car lights now, comparably, it would be scarey riding
at night on a bike. On a 8 lane city highway, some clown had an old 40
year old type that was powered by wheel edge turning a motor.

The sidewall generator is still sold today and will work just fine.
Its merely a way to generate electricity. Same as the expensive
Schmidt generator hub. Or Shimano generator hub. The key is the light
that is powered by the generator. And that is where the Schmidt E6
front light trumps the other lights.

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/dymotec.asp

I

Quoted message said:

couldn't even see his taillight AT ALL! I only saw his shadow from
store lights blocked partially as passed right beside him. It scared me
that bad that didn't see him, and glad I didn't hear a thud.

That guy will be road meat. So LED flashing lights to be seen may not
be too bad, for tail lights anyway.
But to see objects good enough to avoid road debree, a high power light
would seem needed. But I am just comfortable riding with both lights
flashing in day on weekends, so night time riding would be risky for
myself; and only if I didn't have a license or car/motorcycle.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You did not mention if you have a Schmidt E6 3 watt light. The Schmidt
E6 light is superior to all of the other cheap 3 watt hub driven
lights.

Interesting, just yesterday I was thinking who I like the 3 w Lumotech lamp
better than the Schmidt E-6. (I have bikes with both).
The E-6 while brighter has a more definetive pattern and less stray light.
The stray light helps me with orientation.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

ddog said:

With high power car lights now, comparably, it would be scarey riding
at night on a bike.

Car lights aren't _that_ much more powerful than they have been for the
past 30 years. There are regulations limiting their light output.
Granted, some yahoos festoon their tin boxes with auxiliary lights that
are overly glaring, but that's a tiny minority.

Besides, if you put reflectors on your bike, motorists' bright lights
result in bright reflections. Their lights help them see you.

Quoted message said:

On a 8 lane city highway, some clown had an old 40
year old type that was powered by wheel edge turning a motor. I
couldn't even see his taillight AT ALL!

Are you sure he had a taillight? Sadly, most night cylcists don't. If
you put a proper taillight or two on a bike, plus reflectors, the bike
is quite visible.

Oh, and that wheel edge of his was turning a generator, not a motor.
Properly set up, those are fine.

BTW, drive carefully out there.

- Frank Krygowski

Den 15.01.2007 kl. 02:49 skrev Werehatrack <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 01:24:23 +0100, "Ivar Hesselager"

may have said:

What is the current wisdom on LEDs?

I have little wisdom, but some experience to offer.
With a suitable battery pack, the Cateye Double Shot and Triple Shot
would, in my opinion, be suitable for what you describe. The 500,
though rated lower in output than the 530, provides more useful light
in my experience...and while both provide nearly the level of
illumination that I'd want for riding in unlit areas on reliably
maintained roads, neither alone would make me confident in such
circumstances.

Oh yes you have wisdom and you have seen the light.
If I read you right, the halogen light (HL 500) is still superior to even
the newest LED (EL520).
In my vast collection of Cateye lights I have a HL 1500, which is a
rechargeable version of the HL 500, and I think it is beautiful in ist
unification of funcition and design. It works perfect for three hours
night ride, but for the PBP it will be too heavy and require too frequent
changes of batteries.
Thanks for your contribution.

Ivar

Den 15.01.2007 kl. 03:06 skrev Hank Wirtz <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I use a SON or a Shimano DH-3N71 dynamo (depending which bike I'm
riding that day) with a Busch & Mueller dLumotec LED lamp.

Oh how I like to be confirmed: You are as wise as I am - and then some.

I too use the SON Dynahub - but with a B+M halogen lamp. If at any time I
will travel at 5 mph, I will not need much light. So I will stick to the
halogen lamp.

Thanks for your contribution.

Ivar

Quoted message said:

While the dynohub is not as bright as the battery-powered system,
running time on any battery-powered system will be a problem. If
you're doing PBP, where you're likely to be riding well after dark, I
would not consider a battery-powered solution unless you had a means by
which to have it recharged during the day.

For many hours spent riding in the dark, without a place to recharge a
battery, my ideal solution is a SON with either a Schmidt E6 or B+M
lamp. I prefer the LED model, because it's at its full brightness at
about 5mph.

--
Sendt med Operas banebrydende postklient:
http://www.opera.com/mail/

Ivar Hesselager said:

As I am preparing for another four night Paris-Brest-Paris ride this
coming august, I would like to know if the research and development in low
energy LED-technology has advanced so much, that you can use these lights
to ride 20 mph on really dark roads.

The - otherwise very conservative - regulations of Audax Club Parisien
have been changed this year, allowing the use of LED-lights as prime light
source on P-B-P. (They were formerly allowed as backup-lights only). I
have recently seem the claim, that the newest LED-lights from Cateye - I
dont know which - should be able to give sufficient light for 20 hours on
one set of batteries. But can they match the light of a halogen lamp?

In my daily/nightly commuting I use a SON dynahub with at 3 volt lamp, and
for my commuting I don't need it better than that. But for the P-B-P
event I must have the best light - which also requries the consideration
of weight as well as rolling resistance.

Ivar, take a look at the Solid Lights 1203D for a bright LED headlight
specifically designed to run off the SON hub. Easily good enough for
riding at 25mph on unlit roads. A number of British riders will be
using Solid Lights as their main headlight on PBP this year.

<http://www.solidlights.co.uk/products/1203d.php>

--
Dave...

Den 15.01.2007 kl. 16:27 skrev Gary Jacobson <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Interesting, just yesterday I was thinking who I like the 3 w Lumotech
lamp
better than the Schmidt E-6. (I have bikes with both).
The E-6 while brighter has a more definetive pattern and less stray
light.
The stray light helps me with orientation.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

I choose to believe in you Gary, that the Lumotech is better than the
Schmict E-6. Partly because I have the Lumatech already, partly because
most people seem to combine the SON hub with the B-M Dynohub. We may be
wrong, but only on the marginals.

thanks for your contribution.

Ivar

Den 15.01.2007 kl. 06:47 skrev <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

For LED, get a helmet light such as the Nite Hawk Emitter. Runs
9+ hours on 4AA batteries. Use it to see the arrow signs on the side
of the road and read the cue sheet and computer and road signs. And it
can serve as a primary light if something were to happen to the Schmidt
light or lights.

On the fourth day of PBP I have seen people unable to lift their head from
the chest. Funny and frightening. Therefore I will not put extra weight on
my head with a head light. I would rather carry a toarch in my back
pocket. Maybe I'm too anxious, but you have to make your choices.

Thanks for your contirbution
Ivar

dkahn400 said:

Ivar Hesselager said:

In my daily/nightly commuting I use a SON dynahub with at 3 volt lamp, and
for my commuting I don't need it better than that. But for the P-B-P
event I must have the best light - which also requries the consideration
of weight as well as rolling resistance.

Ivar, take a look at the Solid Lights 1203D for a bright LED headlight
specifically designed to run off the SON hub. Easily good enough for
riding at 25mph on unlit roads. A number of British riders will be
using Solid Lights as their main headlight on PBP this year.

<http://www.solidlights.co.uk/products/1203d.php>

Ah, that's what I was coming in here to post. I've been eyeing it
myself for my commuter bike. Perhaps next winter.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife - chopping off what's
incomplete and saying: "Now it's complete because it's ended here."
-- Muad'dib, "Dune"

Ivar Hesselager said:

Den 15.01.2007 kl. 06:47 skrev <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

For LED, get a helmet light such as the Nite Hawk Emitter. Runs
9+ hours on 4AA batteries. Use it to see the arrow signs on the side
of the road and read the cue sheet and computer and road signs. And it
can serve as a primary light if something were to happen to the Schmidt
light or lights.

On the fourth day of PBP I have seen people unable to lift their head from
the chest.

Its sad people choose to begin 1200k brevets with such poor
conditioning. On my fourth morning of the Colorado 1200k I rode a
pleasant 100km to the finish. After 9 hours off the bike the night
before. The key to having an enjoyable/not miserable time on 1200k
brevets is to get sufficient rest each night. And to do that you must
show up in good shape with speed and ability. Not show up just hoping
to finish the ride by suffering miserably. Pathethic.

Funny and frightening. Therefore I will not put extra weight on

Quoted message said:

my head with a head light. I would rather carry a toarch in my back
pocket. Maybe I'm too anxious, but you have to make your choices.

Thanks for your contirbution
Ivar

Ivar Hesselager said:

Den 15.01.2007 kl. 16:27 skrev Gary Jacobson <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Interesting, just yesterday I was thinking who I like the 3 w Lumotech
lamp
better than the Schmidt E-6. (I have bikes with both).
The E-6 while brighter has a more definetive pattern and less stray
light.
The stray light helps me with orientation.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

I choose to believe in you Gary, that the Lumotech is better than the
Schmict E-6. Partly because I have the Lumatech already, partly because
most people seem to combine the SON hub with the B-M Dynohub.

People choose the B&M Lumotech light because its cheap. After spending
hundreds of dollars on the Schmidt hub front wheel, they then go cheap
with the light. Bizarre. The light is the key. How you generate the
current, whether Schmidt or Shimano hub, or sidewall generator is
mostly irrelevant. The light is the final output that you actually
use. Kind of like people spending thousands of dollars on mono
amplifiers, pre-amps, tuners, etc. And then buying $25 a pair speakers
at K-Mart. The speakers make the noise your ears actually hear. Just
like the Schmidt E6 light makes the light that you actually use to see
the road.

We may be

Quoted message said:

wrong, but only on the marginals.

thanks for your contribution.

Ivar