Pre-built wheels vs. building a set

Colin Campbell said:

I got curious while scanning the catalog from Excel Sports -- is a
wheelset such as Campy Proton which costs about $430 and weighs a bit
over 1700g better or worse than building a set of wheels using, for
example, Mavic Open Pro rims and Campy Chorus hubs, with DT spokes?

The rims would cost $140 and weight 850g. The hubs would cost $220 and
weigh 506g. DT Spokes would weigh 426g and probably cost about $56 (for
4 20-packs, assuming I can't buy 64 exactly). The parts are just below
the price of the pre-built wheels, and I don't know what the labor cost
would be. The weight is slightly higher than the Proton pair, due to
having 32 spokes per wheel.

So, is there a reason to buy a set of pre-built wheels?

To impress your riding friends with how much disposable income you have?

Mark

Colin Campbell said:

I got curious while scanning the catalog from Excel Sports -- is a wheelset
such as Campy Proton which costs about $430 and weighs a bit over 1700g
better or worse than building a set of wheels using, for example, Mavic
Open Pro rims and Campy Chorus hubs, with DT spokes?

The rims would cost $140 and weight 850g. The hubs would cost $220 and
weigh 506g. DT Spokes would weigh 426g and probably cost about $56 (for 4
20-packs, assuming I can't buy 64 exactly). The parts are just below the
price of the pre-built wheels, and I don't know what the labor cost would
be. The weight is slightly higher than the Proton pair, due to having 32
spokes per wheel.

The listed weights for pre-built wheels usually don't include the quick
releases, so the Proton pair is probably the one that is slightly higher in
weight.

Colin Campbell said:

So, is there a reason to buy a set of pre-built wheels?

Convenience.

Colin Campbell said:

I got curious while scanning the catalog from Excel Sports -- is a
wheelset such as Campy Proton which costs about $430 and weighs a bit
over 1700g better or worse than building a set of wheels using, for
example, Mavic Open Pro rims and Campy Chorus hubs, with DT spokes?

The rims would cost $140 and weight 850g. The hubs would cost $220 and
weigh 506g. DT Spokes would weigh 426g and probably cost about $56 (for
4 20-packs, assuming I can't buy 64 exactly). The parts are just below
the price of the pre-built wheels, and I don't know what the labor cost
would be. The weight is slightly higher than the Proton pair, due to
having 32 spokes per wheel.

The cost of wheel parts is, IMO, getting out of hand. In particular, the
cost of rims has jumped considerably, and the selection has shrunk, since
the boutique-wheel craze has taken over. $70 should buy you one heck of a
rim, but doesn't seem to any longer. I get most of mine at swap meets for
$10.

But, these costs need also to be spread out over time. Most folks who buy
boutique wheels will simply buy another pair when the rim gets totaled, or
worn out. But, really, rims are wear items, and if you have handbuilt
wheels you can replace the rim when it has died, so even at current
inflated prices for rims you can get the next pair of wheels for very
little --- but you have to start out with buildable equipment.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front
_`\(,_ | of enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of
(_)/ (_) | them would reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The
internet has proven this not to be the case.

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Colin Campbell said:

So, is there a reason to buy a set of pre-built wheels?

Convenience.

You might also want to add "bragging rights." The marketing by Mavic,
Shimano, Campagnolo, et al., is amazing. People actually *believe* that a if
you spend a $800, $1000 or more on a set of wheels, its going to make you
"faster."

Why be stuck with fuddy-duddy old fashion 32h or god forbid 36h wheels, when
you can get the latest in 16-20 spokes wheels. Less spokes MUST EQUAL less
weight. And everyone knows, less weight means easier time getting up that
hill! Just Do IT!@

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Colin Campbell <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

I got curious while scanning the catalog from Excel Sports -- is a
wheelset such as Campy Proton which costs about $430 and weighs a bit
over 1700g better or worse than building a set of wheels using, for
example, Mavic Open Pro rims and Campy Chorus hubs, with DT spokes?

The rims would cost $140 and weight 850g. The hubs would cost $220
and weigh 506g. DT Spokes would weigh 426g and probably cost about
$56 (for 4 20-packs, assuming I can't buy 64 exactly). The parts are
just below the price of the pre-built wheels, and I don't know what
the labor cost would be. The weight is slightly higher than the
Proton pair, due to having 32 spokes per wheel.

So, is there a reason to buy a set of pre-built wheels?

By golly, how about that !
Same thing with the typical boutique cranksets from these same factories.
Why take the chainwheels they offer, when you can select your own !? In
colors, even.
And if you're really industrious, you can get the right side with separate
arm and spider, so you're not restricted to the narrow choices offered in
boxed sets.
Then the spider attachments bolts can be the ones you personally select, as
well as the arm attachment bolts.
And you could even get the pedal threads with a conically countersunk entry
to avoid all the pedal eye fractures coming from the inept factory-imposed
models.
At least you're still free to choose bottom brackets, making personal
choices about JIS or ISO, knowing that your own work will come out superior.

On the other hand, so little choice is left with the derailleur assemblies,
its demoralizing. You no longer have a lot of options with derailleur
spring rates or rivets or bushings. No more winding your own.

The end of the world is nigh, seems to me.

I thought there were better trolls in the recent past, but you're free to
resubmit this under another pen name.
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine
*******

La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
-- Einstein, A.

Joseph.Santaniello said:

...
Pre-built boutique wheels make sense if you want a "known quantity" in
terms of quality. I live in a remote area and I don't trust the LBS to
make wheels for me. I'd rather make them myself, and I don't want to do
that, because I want good wheels. I have special needs due to my
weight, but if I didn't weigh so much I would get some boutique wheels,
unless I had a LBS I could trust. I would know the pre-builts were put
togther well, I'd have a company to complain to if they didn't work
properly, and I would just ride....

There are people who post to rec.bicycles.tech regularly such as
(alphabetical order by last name) Sheldon Brown [1], Peter Chisholm [2]
and Andrew Muzi [3] who will build a conventional spoked wheel properly
from the parts you specify [4], ship it to you in exchange for a credit
card authorization, and stand behind their work. There is no need to
spend more money for pre-made wheels that offer less of everything but
"bling".

[1] <http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/index.html>.
[2] <http://vecchios.com/>.
[3] <http://yellowjersey.org/>.
[4] Assuming reasonable and available parts.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

Colin Campbell said:

The rims would cost $140 and weight 850g. The hubs would cost $220 and
weigh 506g. DT Spokes would weigh 426g and probably cost about $56 (for 4
20-packs, assuming I can't buy 64 exactly). The parts are just below the
price of the pre-built wheels, and I don't know what the labor cost would
be. The weight is slightly higher than the Proton pair, due to having 32
spokes per wheel.

So, is there a reason to buy a set of pre-built wheels?

In general, traditional hand built 32 or 36 spoke wheels will be more
durable and maintainable than a boutique wheel, and should be less
expensive. The problem is that when you buy the parts individually, they are
expensive. One solution is to buy a built up wheel from Performance or
Nashbar with the components you want, and then tension and stress relieve
them yourself (or have an LBS doi it).

For example, Performance is selling a PAIR of wheels using Mavic Open Pro
rims, butted DT spokes, and Ultegra hubs for $200. That's pretty hard to
beat. See:

http://tinyurl.com/76sc8

Art Harris

bfd said:

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Colin Campbell said:

So, is there a reason to buy a set of pre-built wheels?

Convenience.

You might also want to add "bragging rights." The marketing by Mavic,
Shimano, Campagnolo, et al., is amazing. People actually *believe*
that a if you spend a $800, $1000 or more on a set of wheels, its
going to make you "faster."

Why be stuck with fuddy-duddy old fashion 32h or god forbid 36h
wheels, when you can get the latest in 16-20 spokes wheels. Less
spokes MUST EQUAL less weight. And everyone knows, less weight means
easier time getting up that hill! Just Do IT!@

I'd rather have the "bragging rights" of a good ol' set of three cross
wheels I built myself.

Mike

Arthur Harris said:

Colin Campbell said:

The rims would cost $140 and weight 850g. The hubs would cost $220 and
weigh 506g. DT Spokes would weigh 426g and probably cost about $56 (for 4
20-packs, assuming I can't buy 64 exactly). The parts are just below the
price of the pre-built wheels, and I don't know what the labor cost would
be. The weight is slightly higher than the Proton pair, due to having 32
spokes per wheel.

So, is there a reason to buy a set of pre-built wheels?

In general, traditional hand built 32 or 36 spoke wheels will be more
durable and maintainable than a boutique wheel, and should be less
expensive. The problem is that when you buy the parts individually, they are
expensive. One solution is to buy a built up wheel from Performance or
Nashbar with the components you want, and then tension and stress relieve
them yourself (or have an LBS doi it).

For example, Performance is selling a PAIR of wheels using Mavic Open Pro
rims, butted DT spokes, and Ultegra hubs for $200. That's pretty hard to
beat. See:

http://tinyurl.com/76sc8

Art Harris

This is the most economical route for both the short & long term. For
whatever reasons, you can buy assembled wheels much cheaper than the
aggregate components, and if you actually use the wheels, you can get
replacement rims, freehubs and cones at higher, but still reasonable,
prices.

Learning how to tension/true and stress relieve wheels isn't too hard,
and it's a useful skill to have for reasons beyond economics.

Proprietary rims, spokes and hubs seem like a really bad idea,
particularly if they're not user-serviceable.

Colin Campbell said:

I got curious while scanning the catalog from Excel Sports -- is a
wheelset such as Campy Proton which costs about $430 and weighs a bit
over 1700g better or worse than building a set of wheels using, for
example, Mavic Open Pro rims and Campy Chorus hubs, with DT spokes?

The rims would cost $140 and weight 850g. The hubs would cost $220 and
weigh 506g. DT Spokes would weigh 426g and probably cost about $56 (for
4 20-packs, assuming I can't buy 64 exactly). The parts are just below
the price of the pre-built wheels, and I don't know what the labor cost
would be. The weight is slightly higher than the Proton pair, due to
having 32 spokes per wheel.

So, is there a reason to buy a set of pre-built wheels?

No. Price what a spoke kit will be for the Protons. Also a rim. Also
think about being in BF Wyoming and imagine finding a spoke. The best
thing about Campag prebuilts is the hub, Unlike Mavic, really good hubs
but hard to beat a well made, well designed, handbuilt wheelset.

Also imagine you are an owner of a Helium front wheel and it gets
trashed, as all rims do eventually. Try to find a 26h OpenPro rim-no
mas. I just built a set of wheels for a guy using a 30 year old set of
Campagnolo hubs, also a set of 25 yr old Phil hubs.

Just make sure they are well built, well designed.

David L. Johnson said:

Colin Campbell said:

I got curious while scanning the catalog from Excel Sports -- is a
wheelset such as Campy Proton which costs about $430 and weighs a bit
over 1700g better or worse than building a set of wheels using, for
example, Mavic Open Pro rims and Campy Chorus hubs, with DT spokes?

The rims would cost $140 and weight 850g. The hubs would cost $220 and
weigh 506g. DT Spokes would weigh 426g and probably cost about $56 (for
4 20-packs, assuming I can't buy 64 exactly). The parts are just below
the price of the pre-built wheels, and I don't know what the labor cost
would be. The weight is slightly higher than the Proton pair, due to
having 32 spokes per wheel.

The cost of wheel parts is, IMO, getting out of hand. In particular, the
cost of rims has jumped considerably, and the selection has shrunk, since
the boutique-wheel craze has taken over. $70 should buy you one heck of a
rim, but doesn't seem to any longer. I get most of mine at swap meets for
$10.

$70 will buy just about any rim now available. Not sure why you think
rims have 'recently' gotten expensive. Rims have stayed remarkably
constant in price over the last decade or so. mavic Open4 and Open SUP
were always about $60-$70,

Quoted message said:

But, these costs need also to be spread out over time. Most folks who buy
boutique wheels will simply buy another pair when the rim gets totaled, or
worn out. But, really, rims are wear items, and if you have handbuilt
wheels you can replace the rim when it has died, so even at current
inflated prices for rims you can get the next pair of wheels for very
little --- but you have to start out with buildable equipment.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front
_`\(,_ | of enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of
(_)/ (_) | them would reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The
internet has proven this not to be the case.

Quoted message said:

That said, I don't ride boutique wheels, but as far as boutique wheels
go, I like the Protons quite a bit. Standard spokes, sane spoke count
(compared to other pre-builts!) and asymmetric offset rear rim for more
even spoke tension.

Joseph

Right side Proton of the rear wheel are propriatary spokes-

Johnny Sunset said:

Joseph.Santaniello said:

...
Pre-built boutique wheels make sense if you want a "known quantity" in
terms of quality. I live in a remote area and I don't trust the LBS to
make wheels for me. I'd rather make them myself, and I don't want to do
that, because I want good wheels. I have special needs due to my
weight, but if I didn't weigh so much I would get some boutique wheels,
unless I had a LBS I could trust. I would know the pre-builts were put
togther well, I'd have a company to complain to if they didn't work
properly, and I would just ride....

There are people who post to rec.bicycles.tech regularly such as
(alphabetical order by last name) Sheldon Brown [1], Peter Chisholm [2]
and Andrew Muzi [3] who will build a conventional spoked wheel properly
from the parts you specify [4], ship it to you in exchange for a credit
card authorization, and stand behind their work. There is no need to
spend more money for pre-made wheels that offer less of everything but
"bling".

[1] <http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/index.html>.
[2] <http://vecchios.com/>.
[3] <http://yellowjersey.org/>.
[4] Assuming reasonable and available parts.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

Thanks for the plug and yes we all do-

"Michael Dart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

bfd said:

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Colin Campbell <[email hidden]> writes:

> So, is there a reason to buy a set of pre-built wheels?

Convenience.

You might also want to add "bragging rights." The marketing by Mavic,
Shimano, Campagnolo, et al., is amazing. People actually *believe*
that a if you spend a $800, $1000 or more on a set of wheels, its
going to make you "faster."

Why be stuck with fuddy-duddy old fashion 32h or god forbid 36h
wheels, when you can get the latest in 16-20 spokes wheels. Less
spokes MUST EQUAL less weight. And everyone knows, less weight means
easier time getting up that hill! Just Do IT!@

I'd rather have the "bragging rights" of a good ol' set of three cross
wheels I built myself.

Wow?! People still built wheels themselves?!$*@

My favorite purchase was an "almost-new" wheelset with DA 9 hubs/Wheelsmith
db spokes and Mavic Open Pro rims. The seller told me it came with her $3500
Rocky Mtn bike. She only rode the wheels - maybe 100 miles - before deciding
to *upgrade* to a $800 set of Mavic Kyserium wheels!!! I got this almost
new wheelset for $150. I took it to a bike shop to check the true and dish
and the shop owner said it was perfect!!!!

Colin Campbell said:

I got curious while scanning the catalog from Excel Sports -- is a
wheelset such as Campy Proton which costs about $430 and weighs a bit
over 1700g better or worse than building a set of wheels using, for
example, Mavic Open Pro rims and Campy Chorus hubs, with DT spokes?

The rims would cost $140 and weight 850g. The hubs would cost $220 and
weigh 506g. DT Spokes would weigh 426g and probably cost about $56 (for
4 20-packs, assuming I can't buy 64 exactly). The parts are just below
the price of the pre-built wheels, and I don't know what the labor cost
would be. The weight is slightly higher than the Proton pair, due to
having 32 spokes per wheel.

So, is there a reason to buy a set of pre-built wheels?

cT = 0.7?

yes; as mentioned by others, you get a known quantity. decent hand
built wheels are a very rare commodity. they may be cheaper, but most
builders are sorely lacking in time or skill to do a decent job of it.
having to take them back to the shop every couple of weeks so your local
"expert" can "tune" them is a pita. and just because someone /tells/
you they're an expert, doesn't mean they are. i could name names on
that score here in the bay area.

bottom line, if you know a good builder that [genuinely] knows their
stuff, hand builts can be fine, but in my experience, the "safe bet"
these days is pre-built "boutique". especially if you don't let your
inexpert lbs monkey with them - [something /very/ important]. also,
consider the benefit of lower spoke count and sealed bearings some
pre-builts offer, especially if you're an all weather rider.

jim beam said:

Colin Campbell wrote:

yes; as mentioned by others, you get a known quantity. decent hand
built wheels are a very rare commodity.

Huh? There are lots of people who can build good wheels. Some of them
are regular posters here, as has already been noted.

There are also some pretty bad boutique wheels out there, sold by [censored]
claims of nonexistent superior properties. And sold for incredible sums.

Quoted message said:

builders are sorely lacking in time or skill to do a decent job of it.
having to take them back to the shop every couple of weeks so your local
"expert" can "tune" them is a pita.

That would be a pita, certainly.

Quoted message said:

bottom line, if you know a good builder that [genuinely] knows their
stuff, hand builts can be fine, but in my experience, the "safe bet"
these days is pre-built "boutique". especially if you don't let your
inexpert lbs monkey with them - [something /very/ important]. also,
consider the benefit of lower spoke count and sealed bearings some
pre-builts offer, especially if you're an all weather rider.

There is no benefit to either for an "all-weather" rider. Cartridge
bearings are not better sealed than cup&cone bearings, and they can be a
PITA to replace -- some essentially irreplaceable. There is certainly no
benefit to having fewer spokes when riding in the rain.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster." --Greg LeMond
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

David L. Johnson said:

jim beam said:

Colin Campbell wrote:

yes; as mentioned by others, you get a known quantity. decent hand
built wheels are a very rare commodity.

Huh? There are lots of people who can build good wheels. Some of them
are regular posters here, as has already been noted.

but david, seriously, of the many thousands of riders here in the bay
area, i seriously doubt many have even heard of r.b.t, let alone know
our regular posters and which are good at wheel builds. i can also tell
you that of all the riders with whom i've shared rides, hardly /any/
have hand built wheels that are 100% true. and that includes certain
builders with supposedly legendary reputations. i myself have tried
four alternative shops here for a post accident re-true, but only the
original builder was able to get it right. /that/ is what i mean when i
say that decent hand builders are a rare commodity.

Quoted message said:

There are also some pretty bad boutique wheels out there, sold by [censored]
claims of nonexistent superior properties. And sold for incredible sums.

and there are plenty of shops that think they need to monkey with these
wheels before they're sold. before i smashed them in a pothole, my
mavic cosmos were perfectly true and had never been touched. otoh,
someone i rode with a couple of months ago had a pair of the same wheels
and regularly had to take them back to the shop. /i/ say that's a
function of exactly the same problem we have with inexpert hand built
wheels.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

builders are sorely lacking in time or skill to do a decent job of it.
having to take them back to the shop every couple of weeks so your local
"expert" can "tune" them is a pita.

That would be a pita, certainly.

Quoted message said:

bottom line, if you know a good builder that [genuinely] knows their
stuff, hand builts can be fine, but in my experience, the "safe bet"
these days is pre-built "boutique". especially if you don't let your
inexpert lbs monkey with them - [something /very/ important]. also,
consider the benefit of lower spoke count and sealed bearings some
pre-builts offer, especially if you're an all weather rider.

There is no benefit to either for an "all-weather" rider. Cartridge
bearings are not better sealed than cup&cone bearings,

that may be so with cheapo cartridge bearings, the kind where the seal
lip doesn't actually make contact, but my shimano rear hub couldn't keep
winter rain rides at bay either, hence the reason i bought the mavics in
the first place - to experiment. and they've been proof that not all
bearing seals are equal because they're still perfect, despite riding in
all kinds wet & filth.

Quoted message said:

and they can be a
PITA to replace -- some essentially irreplaceable.

eh? no dude, untrue. you may need the right tools and a modicum of
skill, but cartridge bearings /are/ replaceable.

Quoted message said:

There is certainly no
benefit to having fewer spokes when riding in the rain.

that depends on whether the rain's coming at you horizontally, doesn't it.

Tim McNamara said:

Colin Campbell said:

So, is there a reason to buy a set of pre-built wheels?

Convenience.

That, and it may be cheaper than buying all the parts separately. For
example, you can often get a set of OpenPro/Ultegra/DT for $150-200. You
couldn't buy the parts for that. If you go through and stress-relieve and
retension these, they should be as good as handbuilts.

If you can't do this yourself, or you don't have a good shop nearby who
can do it, it's well worth ordering a set of handbuilts from a good
builder.

In any case, as Peter pointed out, it's best to steer clear of
proprietary parts.

Frankly I am stunned by what people will pay for fancy wheels, which
can't do anything for them but look cool. But what price, fashion?

Matt O.