Power Training Through Winter

RidwarePhil said:

I am failry new to power trainin having only had a PT since September.

I am comfortable with the technology and have read the PT bible and understand the principles etc. For the last couple of months I have been undertaking the following schedule

Mon - rest
Tue - 2 x 20
Wed - recovery
Thursday 2 x 20 or 3 x 10
Friday recovery / rest
Saturday - group ride 3hrs ish
Sunday - Anything (but normally a turbo session approx 1 hour)

I have a young family and busy job so am a little time limited

Over the last month my 2 x 20 avg has increase by 20 W (perhaps I just underestimated to start with) and sessions are now pretty hard to complete.

I struggle to complete back to back sessions and the Thursday session feels noticably harder than the Tuesday session.

I am noticing on group rides that even though my FTP is up I am struggling more on short sharp efforts than I normally do - I suspect that this is because I am focussing on FTP rather than 15sec, 1 min or 5 min efforts.

Its early in the year and I realise that there is still plenty of time before racing starts in April, so I am not overly worried about this yet

*****************
My questions are:

1) Are Tuesday / Thursday 2x 20 sessions as valuable as Tuesday / Wednesday sessions? or is it better to train back to back

2) Is a 3 x 10 or 4 x 10 session a good substitute for a 2 x 20? If so how should I adjust my target power from my 2 x 20 power?

3) Am I right in ignoring 12 sec, 1 minute and 5 minute intervals for now - and starting them in Feb / March or shoudl I try and build a session into Sunday / Wednesday?

Sorry for so many questions - but I would appreciate any help or links to other posts that may be of help.

Cheers Phil

Without going into why or anything, I'll just go into what I do.

MY AVERAGE WEEK:
Monday- Recovery
Tuesday-2x30 @275 (Tempo) 15 warmup, 30 275, 15 cool, 30 275, 5 cool
Wednesday-3x15 @ 275,285,395- 25 warmup, 15 275, 15 cool, 15 285, 15 cool, 15 295, 5 cool
Thursday-Recovery
Friday-"Pre Race" 1.5 hrs....intervals w/o going into powers, something like 1x5 min., 1x3 min, 1x1 min, 2x30 sec, 2 sprints all out..rest is warmup/cooldown/easy endurance
Saturday-Long group ride (around 4 hours averaging above 200 watts, including attacks and such..)
Sunday-2 hour endurance ride @ 200-225 watts

hope that helps a little at least...and to compare power, i'm 6'2, 160lbs, and a cat 4 (hopefully a 3 soon this season)..

RidwarePhil said:

...1) Are Tuesday / Thursday 2x 20 sessions as valuable as Tuesday / Wednesday sessions? or is it better to train back to back...

Assuming you recover well enough on back to back training days then it really doesn't matter. It's time in level that stresses your body and as long as you're fresh enough to do that same time in the same levels it doesn't really matter. But a lot of folks might struggle with back to back sessions depending on the intensity. You don't really say how hard you're doing your 2x20 sessions, is it SST work at 85-90% of FTP or are you attempting best effort 100% FTP efforts for each interval?

Quoted post said:

...2) Is a 3 x 10 or 4 x 10 session a good substitute for a 2 x 20? If so how should I adjust my target power from my 2 x 20 power?...

From a time in level standpoint 2x20 = 4x10, but personally I prefer fewer long efforts so I'd prefer 2x20 or even 1x40 over 4x10. That way you pay the price of getting up into high aerobic work one time(it takes 7 to 8 minutes to get up to level) and spend more time continuously in level. Better yet do at least a couple days a week with 2x30, 2x45 or even 1x90 but backed off 5 to 10% from your shorter 2x20 days. That's really the essence of Sweet Spot Training, back off a bit, but accumulate more time in level for more CTL and more overall training stress per session.

Quoted post said:

...3) Am I right in ignoring 12 sec, 1 minute and 5 minute intervals for now - and starting them in Feb / March or shoudl I try and build a session into Sunday / Wednesday?...

That depends on your goals and your racing schedule. When do you need to be race fit and for what kind of races. I won't start L5 work or above until the end of February for mass start races starting in April. Your needs may differ.

Good luck,
Dave

3) Am I right in ignoring 12 sec, 1 minute and 5 minute intervals for now - and starting them in Feb / March or shoudl I try and build a session into Sunday / Wednesday?

Sorry for so many questions - but I would appreciate any help or links to other posts that may be of help.

Cheers Phil[/QUOTE]

As Dave stated it really is all about your goal. The reality of all the winter SST is that it does blunt your Normalized Power (ability to change pace, surge...) but is the most efficient way to build base. I am not the experts of others on this list but as someone who races MTB it is a very big concern (NP) as maintaining a higher NP is important is it is a big key to success for me. That being said it is my opinion that maintaining some power on the bike is not hard. It is a lot like weight lifting, you can see gains quickly from even small efforts. I follow basically the same schedule as you ( I am 40+ so need the Wednesday recovery) but I add sprint or "micro" bursts on the Sunday endurance ride. Basically pick a short climb every 10 minutes or so and punch a sprint...only a fast spin up typically lasting 10 - 15 seconds at most. I believe this helps maintain some NP during the winter months and prepares for stronger intervals come spring.

Guys - thanks for the posts a little more info for you.

I am cat 3 racer in the UK (started as cat 4 last year)
Season starts around April and will be primarily crits and road races.

I am 33, 71 Kg and recovering a fairly bad year. I had recurring sinus infections all through last winter, spring and summer whihc meant I couldnt really string any consistent form together. I had an op in August which has sorted it now and seem to be able to get a cold etc without getting a sinus infection.

As such I was really week when I started training again in October, plus its the first time I trained with power.

I thought my FTP was 220 ish so started out on 2 x 20 at 220 and managed to complete those after a couple of sessions. I then upped it to 230 and am now at 240.

I have not tested FTP over a 60 minute duration in a time trial etc but the fast 3 hour / group ride I did at the weekend seemed to indicate a ftp of 240 - 255W which is about right.

I am training at 94% which I think is level 4.

I am looking to improve FTP (which I think is pretty low 3.59 W/kg for my age etc). so I have been focussing on long intervals first before working on speed work closer to race season.

Are weights sessions of any benefit to improving FTP (not meaning to be contencious).

Or should I just keep workin on 10, 20 , 30 & 45 etc?

Thanks

I put out around 4.2 W/kg....maybe I'll be able to cat up quickly, lol...last season btw, i was only putting out about 3.6 W/kg...is that a big increase?

I just wrote this up.. this will be my scheduale starting asap, prior to this was mostly all 2x20s with some 2x25s thrown in and 65min(or as long as i can handle on the trainer) I don't expect to start racing any eariler than mid april. Although, this is my first time racing, ever.

Phase 1 (Dec-Feb)
Mon : Rest
Tues : 3x30(90%)
Wed : 3x20(100%)
Thurs : 2x25(95%)
Fri : Active Rest 45m Run
Sat : 3x30(90%)
Sun : 3x20(100%)

Phase 2 (Mar-May)
Mon : Rest
Tues : 3x30(90%)
Wed : 3x20(100%)
Thurs : 5x5(112%)(3-4r) or CTS(7x2,3x2,5x1)
Fri : 120-180 endurance or 2x25(90%)
Sat : Group Ride/3x30(90%)/Hillwork
Sun : Group Ride/3x20(100%)/Hillwork

Phase 3 (Jun-)
Mon : Rest
Tues : 5x5(110%)(3-4r)
Wed : 2x30(90%)
Thurs : CTS(7x2,3x2,5x1)
Fri : 120-180 endurance or 2x25(90%)
Sat : Group Ride/3x30(90%)/Hillwork
Sun : Group Ride/3x20(100%)/Hillwork

CTS is a carmichael training systems "Trainright Criterium" video i got. It's kind of a vo2max workout i guess.

I'm not sure exactly what to expect with the group rides, except probabley about 3 hours, 20mph+...

Any of the wise folk on these boards have any input/advice?

Miscreant said:

... any input/advice?

Good luck! Nothing under 90% on your schedule and a fair amount above. If you can pull that off for any length of time then I'd have to guess you've underestimated your FTP.

Read some of rmur's posts and think about the value of building power by working all of SST, not just the high end. Remember, the first and most important goal is long term sustainability, if you can't hold to your program for the long term then you won't get far. Your program seems awful top heavy from a long term consistency standpoint.

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

Good luck! Nothing under 90% on your schedule and a fair amount above. If you can pull that off for any length of time then I'd have to guess you've underestimated your FTP.

Read some of rmur's posts and think about the value of building power by working all of SST, not just the high end. Remember, the first and most important goal is long term sustainability, if you can't hold to your program for the long term then you won't get far. Your program seems awful top heavy from a long term consistency standpoint.

-Dave

I see your point... I tend to do that alot.. do you think this would be more realistic?

Phase 1 (Dec-Feb)
Mon : Rest
Tues : 3x30(85%)
Wed : 3x20(95%)
Thurs : 2x25(90%)
Fri : Active Rest 45m Run
Sat : 3x30(85%)
Sun : 3x20(95%)

Phase 2 (Mar-May)
Mon : Rest
Tues : 3x30(85%)
Wed : 3x20(95%)
Thurs : 5x5(112%)(3-4r) or CTS(7x2,3x2,5x1)
Fri : 120-180 endurance or 3x40(75%)
Sat : Group Ride/3x30(85%)/Hillwork
Sun : Group Ride/3x20(95%)/Hillwork

Phase 3 (Jun-)
Mon : Rest
Tues : CTS(7x2,3x2,5x1)
Wed : 3x30(85%)
Thurs : CTS(7x2,3x2,5x1)
Fri : 120-180 endurance or 3x40(75%)
Sat : Group Ride/3x30(85%)/Hillwork
Sun : Group Ride/3x20(95%)/Hillwork

i knocked everything down by about 5% for the most part.

Miscreant said:

I see your point... I tend to do that alot.. do you think this would be more realistic?

Phase 1 (Dec-Feb)
Mon : Rest
Tues : 3x30(85%)
Wed : 3x20(95%)
Thurs : 2x25(90%)
Fri : Active Rest 45m Run
Sat : 3x30(85%)
Sun : 3x20(95%)
....

Well that's a better start and I'd suggest you see how this goes before projecting what you'll do the rest of the season. It's still pretty agressive, have you been doing 3x20 sessions at 95% of FTP yet? If not you'll probably want to work up to a full hour at that intensity. Same for the 3x30 sessions, that's a lot of mental and physical effort, it's not unreasonable but unless you've already been working a weekly schedule like that you'll probably have to work up to it.

One thing to consider is that when you get past the base build and start doing higher end workouts you'll probably need to balance them with some longer lower end efforts. IOW, adding a dedicated L5 or L6 day might require dropping a mid SST day down into a longer Tempo day both for recovery and CTL maintenance reasons. Again, start with your proposed base build and be willing to back off the intensity or duration a bit if you struggle and start paying attention to how you recover mentally and physically. Use what you learn to start planning your pre-race preparation and race season.

Good luck,
Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

have you been doing 3x20 sessions at 95% of FTP yet? If not you'll probably want to work up to a full hour at that intensity. Same for the 3x30 sessions, that's a lot of mental and physical effort, it's not unreasonable but unless you've already been working a weekly schedule like that you'll probably have to work up to it.

Well no, but i have been doing 2x25s,2x20s at 100% of FTP, but i do get your point.

daveryanwyoming said:

One thing to consider is that when you get past the base build and start doing higher end workouts you'll probably need to balance them with some longer lower end efforts. IOW, adding a dedicated L5 or L6 day might require dropping a mid SST day down into a longer Tempo day both for recovery and CTL maintenance reasons.

As simple as that is, i guess i just over look it, or try to overachieve too much. Thanks for the input. I know most of the basic princicples, its really just that i am super inexperienced. Thanks for all your help.

Miscreant said:

Well no, but i have been doing 2x25s,2x20s at 100% of FTP, but i do get your point.

As simple as that is, i guess i just over look it, or try to overachieve too much. Thanks for the input. I know most of the basic princicples, its really just that i am super inexperienced. Thanks for all your help.

lol...reason i have a coach...takes the thought out...i just let him know how i feel, and explain any weird things in my wko files (like tonight i bonked, lol..i had two 30 min. intervals and bonked 20 min. into the second one)...

RidwarePhil said:

Are weights sessions of any benefit to improving FTP (not meaning to be contencious).
Thanks

In short the answer is No. But don't take my word for it cyclingforums.comt126133.htmlOpen ↗ Your FTP is pretty much the guvnor in all races. so unless you've been diagnosed with a specific muscle weakness leave the Gym for body aesthetics and keep hitting those 'sweet spots' : 2/3/4 x 20's/30' or 40's or indeed level 3 rides in the 2-4 hour range.

For more on Ft improvement here's Bill Black '...I stress that folks should be able to race with the peloton at L3 and then have the "rope" to go into L4 and higher only to attack, respond to attacks and to finish. In order to do that one must spend the greatest percentage of one's training time building a solid and high FTP'

Oh by the way I'm a UK 3rd cat too 🙂 I plan to get going in March with some Surrey league stuff...Are you based in london?

Ade,

Thanks for your reply.

Last year I had a coach for about 6 months from Jan - August and he was recommending using weights during the early part of the season. I was unsure of the benefit then and to be honest it was another training session to fit into a hectic life and meant less time on the bike.

Reading the posts on the link you sent me from Rik etc seem to suggest that I should just spend quality time on the bike.

This year I am trying focus a lot more and structure my training hence the 2 x 20's etc.

I have a couple more questions.

1) I see you recommend 2/3/4/ x 20, 30, 45 minute intervals
What % of FTP should these be carried out at (apologies if this has been done to death)

2) Are 3 x 10's of any value or should these only be used a stepping stone to 2 x 20. I am currently doing 2 set of 2 x 20 at 240 and 1 set of 3 x 10 at 240 per week.

3) How quick do you expect progression with FTP intervals. Already I have moved up from 2 x 20 at 220 to 2 x 20 at 240.

How do I know when to move is this just a case of feel or shoudl I self test or look for changes in my power profile when out riding / racing hard. Or should I just adjust on feel when the 2 x 20 become easier?

4)Interesting quote from Bill black I think I was going into L4 early in races etc and having nothing left when I needed it.

Should I be targetting rides at L3 specifically on the turbo or using roup rides to cater for that requirement

P.s. I am based in Staffs and ride for Plan-B so wont be riding Surrey League.

Thanks Phil

PS Forget to ask.

When I look at the performance manager chart (atatched to last post) The blue line seems to be rising steeply - I understand that this may be due to the lack of data before the display range.
Is this climbin too quickly?

Is it ok to keep it climbing at this rate or will I hit a plateu as I get closer to my FTP etc

The yellow line seems to be primarily negative - Is this normal, are the numbers incorrect or am I training too hard

RidwarePhil said:

Ade,

1) I see you recommend 2/3/4/ x 20, 30, 45 minute intervals
What % of FTP should these be carried out at (apologies if this has been done to death)

hil

I'm perhaps one of the few without a PM but the range for FT building rides will be from 85-100% of your FT. Personally any ride 2/3 x 20's tend for me to be 95-100% of FT. However 3 x 30 or 2 x 45 will be at a lower percentage of my FT perhaps 86-90%. Not having a PM means I'm dependent on perceived exertion but when these rides are done on my KK I'm usually at the right level of intensity. Hopefull Dave and other will embelish what I've said

Quoted post said:

2) Are 3 x 10's of any value or should these only be used a stepping stone to 2 x 20. I am currently doing 2 set of 2 x 20 at 240 and 1 set of 3 x 10 at 240 per week.

I've never done them so I can't say. But the general advice on threshold workouts is to make the 'on' duration at least 15mins; but I'm sure you'll still get value at 10mins

Quoted post said:

3) How quick do you expect progression with FTP intervals. Already I have moved up from 2 x 20 at 220 to 2 x 20 at 240.

How do I know when to move is this just a case of feel or shoudl I self test or look for changes in my power profile when out riding / racing hard. Or should I just adjust on feel when the 2 x 20 become easier?

If after 6 weeks things feel easier its possibly time to increase duration or instensity

Quoted post said:

4)Interesting quote from Bill black I think I was going into L4 early in races etc and having nothing left when I needed it.

Yeah me and you both mate. Hopefully not this year 🙂

Quoted post said:

Should I be targetting rides at L3 specifically on the turbo or using roup rides to cater for that requirement

I guess as long as you get them done is what most important. Id go the group ride route personally

RidwarePhil said:

3) How quick do you expect progression with FTP intervals. Already I have moved up from 2 x 20 at 220 to 2 x 20 at 240.

[font=Tahoma]A 9% change for the entire interval group (not just a single 20-minute interval) is excellent progress.[/font]

RidwarePhil said:

How do I know when to move is this just a case of feel or shoudl I self test or look for changes in my power profile when out riding / racing hard. Or should I just adjust on feel when the 2 x 20 become easier?

[font=Tahoma]I go by a combination of accidental discovery along with trial and error. If I'm feeling well, I might try a slightly higher power and see how long I can hold it. Sometimes it just falls onto my lap though and I just ride into the intervals, I can tell the power is up, and I just roll with it.[/font]

RidwarePhil said:

4)Interesting quote from Bill black I think I was going into L4 early in races etc and having nothing left when I needed it. Should I be targetting rides at L3 specifically on the turbo or using roup rides to cater for that requirement.

[font=Tahoma]You need to do a lot of L3 to make it worthwhile so I prefer to do it outside. But just in case you were thinking of targeting L3, don't. Keep targeting FTP. You really don't need to target L3. There are good reasons to do some of it but to some extent, being able to do more and more work in L4 (i.e., higher power) will mean that you should be able to do more and more work in L3 (i.e., time) also. You will want to do some long bouts of L3 prior to racing to get your body used to longer efforts, work on glycogen storage and top off your CTL (you can acquire boatloads of TSS on a long L3 ride) but don't make it your training emphasis.[/font]

Steve_B said:

[font=Tahoma]...[/font] [font=Tahoma]You need to do a lot of L3 to make it worthwhile so I prefer to do it outside. But just in case you were thinking of targeting L3, don't. Keep targeting FTP. You don't need to really target L3. There are good reasons to do some of it but to some extent, being able to do more and more work in L4 will mean that you should be able to do more and more work in L3 also. You will want to do some long bouts of L3 prior to racing to get your body used to longer efforts, work on glycogen storage and top off your CTL (you can acquire boatloads of TSS on a long L3 ride) but don't make it your training emphasis.[/font]

+1 Steve, excellent post!

RidwarePhil said:

...Is it ok to keep it climbing at this rate or will I hit a plateu as I get closer to my FTP etc...The yellow line seems to be primarily negative - Is this normal, are the numbers incorrect or am I training too hard

When you first start training, especially if you don't seed your CTL and ATL starting values, it's hard not to ramp CTL quickly. The question is how do you feel after those fast CTL ramps? If you're feeling fine with your weekly training load then I wouldn't worry about it just yet. If you try to sustain steep CTL ramps after CTL has climbed a bit then I'd be more concerned about illness or burnout.

Looking at your charts, your steepest CTL ramps happened when your CTL was below 15. Well an hour of easy Tempo riding can easily give you a TSS three times that level which will bring your CTL up fast but if you're a normally healthy person with at least some regular activity then that probably isn't too hard on you. Basically our CTL probably doesn't ever really get to zero unless we're totally bedridden, or maybe it does mathematically, but we can still do some work without recovery troubles.

As far as TSB being mostly negative, that's normal and necessary during a build period. CTL only goes up if workout TSS is above current CTL on the average. And when your average workout TSS is above your CTL(pulling the long term average up) your TSB will be negative. The two go hand in hand. Sure TSB may become positive after rest days or light training but during a build it will be negative more often than not or you're not building.

Hope that helps,
Dave

Dave / Steve,

Thanks for the exlanation and encouragement.

I think my current plan of riding with club at the weekend for 3 hours should bring in the miles / L3 workload and be more fun than riding the turbo.

In the week I will follow your advice and work on FTP primarily until I get closer to racing season whehn I will switch in a few sprints and L5 interval sessions.

Thanks - now looking for the next 9% improvement - although I feel this one may be harder to achieve!

Phil