Power profiling and 20 min test

Speedskater said:

I normally estimate my FTP by the 20 min avg power *0.95 method. The 20 min TT is done as last part of the 1*5 min, 2*1 min, 3*20 sec, 1x20 min power profiling out of Hunter´s book. Out of this test I recently got 6,2 W/kg out of the 5 min test and 4,9 W/kg out of the 20 min test. The 1 min and 5 s results are rather modest. Since the 5 min result is in the upper part of the chart, I wonder how much the anaerobic component skews the calculation of my FTP. If I understand right what was written in this forum the 20 min test tends to overestimate FTB for people with a high AWC. Is this still true after the whole set of tests done before as I surely will be able to produce a higher 20 min avg if I only do this test alone? I know that I could test this by longer L4 intervalls but I don´t want to dothem at this time.

Plug your 20 minute and 5 minute test data into the Critical Power model and see what that tells you about CP & AWC.
velo-fit.commonod.xlsOpen ↗

Alex Simmons said:

Plug your 20 minute and 5 minute test data into the Critical Power model and see what that tells you about CP & AWC.
velo-fit.commonod.xlsOpen ↗

I did this together with the 1 min value and the CT estimates a FTP of 331 W (4,8 W/kg) while the 0.95 method says 324 W (4,7 W/kg). This is fairly close together think and should not make any difference at this time of the year. But from the theoretical poin of view, is it advisable for people with a rather high AWC to include a let´s say 10 min test. I wonder how the FTP test could be skewed in the future since I didn´t train VO2max for 4 month and didn´t race for the same time. There are no 40k TT I will compete in, so it´s unlikely that I will get any results that come closer to a real 60 min test. Races are also much longer and also crits take at least 1.5 h.

Speedskater said:

I did this together with the 1 min value and the CT estimates a FTP of 331 W (4,8 W/kg) while the 0.95 method says 324 W (4,7 W/kg). This is fairly close together think and should not make any difference at this time of the year. But from the theoretical poin of view, is it advisable for people with a rather high AWC to include a let´s say 10 min test. I wonder how the FTP test could be skewed in the future since I didn´t train VO2max for 4 month and didn´t race for the same time. There are no 40k TT I will compete in, so it´s unlikely that I will get any results that come closer to a real 60 min test. Races are also much longer and also crits take at least 1.5 h.

Using 1MP for CP testing can be misleading because for many people 1 minute isn't enough to truly exhaust their anaerobic capacity. I would try using a minimum of 3 datapoints collected between 3 and 30 minutes.

Roadie_scum said:

Using 1MP for CP testing can be misleading because for many people 1 minute isn't enough to truly exhaust their anaerobic capacity. I would try using a minimum of 3 datapoints collected between 3 and 30 minutes.

Yep, ditch the 1 min number - what does the CP model with just the 5 min & 20 min tests tell you?

Alex Simmons said:

Yep, ditch the 1 min number - what does the CP model with just the 5 min & 20 min tests tell you?

~ 4.46 w/kg or 308W @69kg .... considerably different.

In this case, I suspect the 20-min effort has been diluted by the previous maximal tests -assuming they were done contiguously.

CP-Monod is great but GIGO 🙂

I also think that the previous test, especially the 5 min test, had negative effects on the 20 min result. The 5 min test was very hard since I started out way to hard and noticed a drop in power from minute 2 to 5 and in the last minute I almost fell from my bike.

Since I am relatively new to training with and by power I wonder what my power profile tells me: 16,4 W/kg@5 sec, 8,44W/kg@1 min, 6,2 W/kg@5 min and 4,9 W/kg@20 min. I does either fit for an allrounder nor for a time trialist.
For deeper understanding: I hardly do any workout targeting my max. neuromuscular power or the anaerobic capacity, so these values are very likely to change the most by progression of the year.

Do your 20 minute test on a separate day, the next day perhaps. Design a good warm up protocol with a few jumps. Then do you test.

Replicate the warmup and testing protocol so that you have good comparable results.

Speedskater said:

I also think that the previous test, especially the 5 min test, had negative effects on the 20 min result. The 5 min test was very hard since I started out way to hard and noticed a drop in power from minute 2 to 5 and in the last minute I almost fell from my bike.

Since I am relatively new to training with and by power I wonder what my power profile tells me: 16,4 W/kg@5 sec, 8,44W/kg@1 min, 6,2 W/kg@5 min and 4,9 W/kg@20 min. I does either fit for an allrounder nor for a time trialist.
For deeper understanding: I hardly do any workout targeting my max. neuromuscular power or the anaerobic capacity, so these values are very likely to change the most by progression of the year.

I'd say you have quite a lot of potential as a cyclist. What's your best speedskating distance? Maybe 5000m?

rmur17 said:

I'd say you have quite a lot of potential as a cyclist. What's your best speedskating distance? Maybe 5000m?

Thanks but you might overestimate my potential. I´m 30 now and started bike racing at 15. Some years I didn´t ride regularly. From 2000 to 2005 I competed in inline speedskating, where my favorite were the 42k. I switched back to raod racing in 2006 due to unsolvable problems with my left leg.
So despite beeing new to power training I´m not new to bike racing.

rmur17 said:

I'd say you have quite a lot of potential as a cyclist. What's your best speedskating distance? Maybe 5000m?

Your insight is impressive! 😄

Speedskater said:

The 5 min test was very hard since I started out way to hard and noticed a drop in power from minute 2 to 5 and in the last minute I almost fell from my bike.

That's seems like the right level of effort though.

One time during a 1-minute test I went so hard that as soon as I stopped, I lost control of my bladder. :eek: 😄

Steve_B said:

One time during a 1-minute test I went so hard that as soon as I stopped, I lost control of my bladder. :eek: 😄

Thank god I didn´t go that hard.

The problem with the 5 min test was that it only was my second test I ever did on this duration, so I had little pacing experience. I almost decided quitting but as I didn´t want to do it for nothing, I continued. When comparing the avg of the second and the last minute there is a drop of almost 90 W! That IS poor pacing.

Speedskater said:

That IS poor pacing.

Yes, but next time you will do it better and probably have a higher result.

acoggan said:

Your insight is impressive! 😄

err... guessing can sometimes make it appear so 🙂

Speedskater said:

Thanks but you might overestimate my potential. I´m 30 now and started bike racing at 15. Some years I didn´t ride regularly. From 2000 to 2005 I competed in inline speedskating, where my favorite were the 42k. I switched back to raod racing in 2006 due to unsolvable problems with my left leg.
So despite beeing new to power training I´m not new to bike racing.

You certainly have good power numbers, no reason you can't be a good cyclist.
On our team, we have two cyclists who have done very well despite starting just a few years go, and they are older than 30.

-bikeguy

Speedskater said:

I also think that the previous test, especially the 5 min test, had negative effects on the 20 min result. The 5 min test was very hard since I started out way to hard and noticed a drop in power from minute 2 to 5 and in the last minute I almost fell from my bike.

I was wondering, do all these tests, 5 mins and 20 mins etc, need to be done on a flat road. I only ask as they are rather difficult to find in my area.

Thanks from a newbie!

Conanart said:

I was wondering, do all these tests, 5 mins and 20 mins etc, need to be done on a flat road. I only ask as they are rather difficult to find in my area.

Thanks from a newbie!

No not necessarily flat in fact some folks find a climb of suitable length to be best. Or indoors against a fixed resistance on the trainer.

I would avoid rolling terrain as much as possible.

rmur17 said:

No not necessarily flat in fact some folks find a climb of suitable length to be best. Or indoors against a fixed resistance on the trainer.

I would avoid rolling terrain as much as possible.

Yes, and not to mention stop lights/stop signs. 😄

-Eric