Power Meters and Pedaling Effectiveness

[ric_stern/RST]

Why Mr. Stern what would you have me retract? As a member of the ABCC ( the qualification is used in your own self-promotion) you must know that the ABCC has the same relationship with official British cycling as the Salvation Army with the British Army-that is to say-none. The innocent reader has no way to know this. You also know that neither you nor your compatriot have ever attended the courses given by or obtained a certification from the official organ of British cycling-The British Cycling Federation. I'll be happy to publish a communication from them specifically about you, if you like. I thought this a deception then; I think it a deception now. I've given you my reasons, which I here dare you to refute. Your rage I defy.
Neither your own CV or business practices are so formidable either, and as for your own morals (which we've discussed in private), like those of your friend, incline me to regard not what you shall say, but what you can prove.
Recall that I sought to keep these matters private but your actions give me no choice but to make them public.

I'm not sure what you don't understand, but the ABCC is not part of the BC(F) and neither Lindsay, or myself have said otherwise. The name of the ABCC has been around for a long period of time, and at one point was (i believe) the official coaching 'arm' of the BCF.

I have no idea what communication you have recieved from the BCF, but as i'm not a BCF coach i have no idea why they would comment about me.

There has been no deception. I suggest you withdraw such ridiculous statements.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Actually, there are, mostly for untrained subjects, but also at least one study of trained cyclists as well. The most salient points would seem to be: 1) asymmetries of up to 10% are very common, but 2) which leg is dominant can vary depending on the power output, the cadence, and even from day to day. The latter in particular would seem to make it a difficult issue to address from a performance/training priorities perspective.

Cool. That's good to know. One less feature of the available crop of PMs to use as a discriminator. I'll happily assume I'm within the 10% asymmetrical bunch and go about trying to figure out how to push harder for longer and not pass out. Thanks.

 

[beerco]

The notion that smooth pedaling is not a feature in elite cycling flies in the face of observation-however, scientific fact in this area is scant.

Bzzzzt. Thank you for playing, please try again next thread.

Read please: http://www.midweekclub.com/articles/coyle91.pdf now show any evidence, even a little that elites pedal smoothly.

Mr. Armstrong was in that study....he doesn't pedal smoothly (and I'm sure niether did Jaque).

P.s. I too have a second hand PT that has been working perfectly since I got it at the start of last season.

 

[n crowley]

Bzzzzt. Thank you for playing, please try again next thread.

Read please: http://www.midweekclub.com/articles/coyle91.pdf now show any evidence, even a little that elites pedal smoothly.

Mr. Armstrong was in that study....he doesn't pedal smoothly (and I'm sure niether did Jaque).

P.s. I too have a second hand PT that has been working perfectly since I got it at the start of last season.

In serious TT pedalling anyone who uses vertical pedal pressure cannot pedal smoothly because of their peak application around 3 o'c and their minimum application in the 11 to 1 o'c area. Smooth high geared pedalling can only be done by the complete elimination of that dead spot area by replacing it with equal max power application and for this to happen you must pedal in such a way that the arms can take a more active part in generating the power while seated. For the arms to be used, power must be applied to the pedals at all times parallel to the arm resistance line and it is only by this method that you will get continuous max power application to the chainwheel.
It is clear from his video that Anquetil used this identical technique and so I am 100% confident he had a smooth pedalling technique.

 

[biker-linz]

I thought long and hard about whether to respond to Gholl's post, both last night and this morning. My immediate reaction was to say nothing, and not dignify his bullying and insulting behaviour with a reaction.
However on reflection I think it's best to clear up a couple of the things he's accused me of.
I have *never* made money from posting on a forum. Having paid good money myself and worked hard to pass my coaching exams I feel I have every right to do so were someone to ask me. The idea that the ABCC is somehow a lesser organisation because they are not affiliated to the BCF is extremely odd. I have never claimed to be a BCF coach, and I don't particularly want to be one. Some of the best coaches in the UK are members of the ABCC and for good reason.
I am proud of the University I attend; for instance, those who are familiar with the scientific literature regarding cycling will be well aware of Dr. Gary Palmer's work there. I am also proud that, at 36, I had the courage to apply, and I love being there.
We all have alterior motives for participating in this forum. I enjoy taking part because I feel I have a useful contrbution to make; as I said before if someone feels that they would like to pay me to help them enjoy their cycling more then I can see no harm in that. Another reason I participate in this (and other) forum(s) is to learn as much as possible about a subject I love. I do not, nor have I ever, sold power meters except for a second-hand Polar last year. The idea that I am somehow concealing my motives by including my web address in my signature is baffling.

Thanks for listening, see you round on the forum!

Lindsay.

 

[Mansmind]

I thought long and hard about whether to respond to Gholl's post, both last night and this morning. My immediate reaction was to say nothing, and not dignify his bullying and insulting behaviour with a reaction.
However on reflection I think it's best to clear up a couple of the things he's accused me of.
I have *never* made money from posting on a forum. Having paid good money myself and worked hard to pass my coaching exams I feel I have every right to do so were someone to ask me. The idea that the ABCC is somehow a lesser organisation because they are not affiliated to the BCF is extremely odd. I have never claimed to be a BCF coach, and I don't particularly want to be one. Some of the best coaches in the UK are members of the ABCC and for good reason.
I am proud of the University I attend; for instance, those who are familiar with the scientific literature regarding cycling will be well aware of Dr. Gary Palmer's work there. I am also proud that, at 36, I had the courage to apply, and I love being there.
We all have alterior motives for participating in this forum. I enjoy taking part because I feel I have a useful contrbution to make; as I said before if someone feels that they would like to pay me to help them enjoy their cycling more then I can see no harm in that. Another reason I participate in this (and other) forum(s) is to learn as much as possible about a subject I love. I do not, nor have I ever, sold power meters except for a second-hand Polar last year. The idea that I am somehow concealing my motives by including my web address in my signature is baffling.

Thanks for listening, see you round on the forum!

Lindsay.

Well said. I think there would be VERY few people visiting the forum that share Mr. Gholl's opinion regarding the coaches here. The vast majority of us appreciate the information you share. Also, I don't see anything unethical, or conflicting by advertising that your services are available should someone desire to utilize them.

Look forward to seeing you around.

John

 

[bozy]

I don't believe anyone has suggested that the Association of British Cycle Coaches is anything to do with (the) British Cycling (Federation). The ABCC is far older coaching association and predates the very recent coaching effort from BC by a long way (not that i am in anyway infering that the BC's coaching isn't 'good enough'). The ABCC has been established for a long time. It is in no way deceptive.

I therefore suggest that you offer Lindsay an immediate and unconditional apology.

Ric

Rick, as you know many of us follow your postings here. it is very important that you give us assurance of your background and credibility.
I think you owe the forum members more thorough answers to the allegations here.
What in fact is your relationship to British cycling-are you a genuine certified coach recognized by the BCF? If not, why not?
You call yourself "super-moderator" , but do you actually financially subsize this website? If so, why, and how much money do you give them?
We would also like to see your CV-what original contributions to Sports Medicine have you made?

 

[biker-linz]

Rick, as you know many of us follow your postings here. it is very important that you give us assurance of your background and credibility.
I think you owe the forum members more thorough answers to the allegations here.
What in fact is your relationship to British cycling-are you a genuine certified coach recognized by the BCF? If not, why not?
You call yourself "super-moderator" , but do you actually financially subsize this website? If so, why, and how much money do you give them?
We would also like to see your CV-what original contributions to Sports Medicine have you made?

Dear Bozy,
While I obviously can't speak for Ric, as an ABCC registered coach myself I feel I can answer questions in relation to the ABCC. The ABCC was originally the coaching arm of British Cycling but apparently there was a falling out a long time ago and the BCF set up their own program. There is, however, no reason why the ABCC should have to affiliate to the BCF in any way; it is an entirely independent body. Many good coaches are registered with (and trained by) the ABCC, including Malcolm Firth, Dr. Gordon Wright (Stuart Dangerfield's coach), Dave Lloyd and Ric (and me). There are many more. As somone who already had a pretty fair grounding in exercise physiology and training principles I found the ABCC course still required a fair amount of work and would recommend it to anyone. Many people who are already BCF coaches (Dave Lloyd included) feel it necessary to take the ABCC courses and I understand why. For more info you might want to contact them directly on:

www.abcc.co.uk

L.

 

[bozy]

Dear Bozy,
While I obviously can't speak for Ric, as an ABCC registered coach myself I feel I can answer questions in relation to the ABCC. The ABCC was originally the coaching arm of British Cycling but apparently there was a falling out a long time ago and the BCF set up their own program. There is, however, no reason why the ABCC should have to affiliate to the BCF in any way; it is an entirely independent body. Many good coaches are registered with (and trained by) the ABCC, including Malcolm Firth, Dr. Gordon Wright (Stuart Dangerfield's coach), Dave Lloyd and Ric (and me). There are many more. As somone who already had a pretty fair grounding in exercise physiology and training principles I found the ABCC course still required a fair amount of work and would recommend it to anyone. Many people who are already BCF coaches (Dave Lloyd included) feel it necessary to take the ABCC courses and I understand why. For more info you might want to contact them directly on:

www.abcc.co.uk

L.

Thank you for this reply, it's very gracious of you.
However, the fundamental question of whether members of the ABCC are officially certified and represent
British Cycling remains unanswered.
Could you be so kind as to give us a more direct reply?
I sincerely hope that Ric himself will give us direct answers to the other questions posed. His silence here is somewhat disturbing.

 

[biker-linz]

However, the fundamental question of whether members of the ABCC are officially certified and represent
British Cycling remains unanswered.
Could you be so kind as to give us a more direct reply?

Bozy,
I don't know how much more clear I can be: the BCF and ABCC are entirely independent bodies, so neither one is affiliated with the other. From an entirely ethical standpoint I can tell you that the insurance offered as an ABCC coach is much better than that offered by the BCF (£5m as opposed to £3m). As I said before, any more questions you wish to pose regarding the credibility of the ABCC might be better directed at the Association itself.

Hope this helps,

L.

 

[acoggan]

I thought long and hard about whether to respond to Gholl's post, both last night and this morning. My immediate reaction was to say nothing, and not dignify his bullying and insulting behaviour with a reaction.

You're a better man than I am, Lindsay. My immediate reaction was that gholl is just a bitter, senile crackpot.

 

[bozy]

Bozy,
I don't know how much more clear I can be: the BCF and ABCC are entirely independent bodies, so neither one is affiliated with the other. From an entirely ethical standpoint I can tell you that the insurance offered as an ABCC coach is much better than that offered by the BCF (£5m as opposed to £3m). As I said before, any more questions you wish to pose regarding the credibility of the ABCC might be better directed at the Association itself.

Hope this helps,

L.

I've really made every effort, but really don't find your reply to my query clear at all. Actually, one might say it seems quite elusive. The query had nothing whatsoever to do with insurance. However, pursuant to your several suggestions I've contacted the BCF and they inform me that the ABCC has nothing to do with official British Cycling at all.
In fact, they indicated that the ABCC has absolutely no official status in Britain.
I find this quite disquieting. Don't you? Some might find it analogous to the difference between members of the Royal College of Surgeons and a similarly named group of imposters. Seems quite shameful, really.
Furthermore, I'm deeply surprised that Ric himself has not come forth to reply to the questions regarding his own lack of credibility.
I don't imagine he can continue to expect you to function as his apologist, or can he?

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I've really made every effort, but really don't find your reply to my query clear at all. Actually, one might say it seems quite elusive. The query had nothing whatsoever to do with insurance. However, pursuant to your several suggestions I've contacted the BCF and they inform me that the ABCC has nothing to do with official British Cycling at all.
In fact, they indicated that the ABCC has absolutely no official status in Britain.
I find this quite disquieting. Don't you? Some might find it analogous to the difference between members of the Royal College of Surgeons and a similarly named group of imposters. Seems quite shameful, really.
Furthermore, I'm deeply surprised that Ric himself has not come forth to reply to the questions regarding his own lack of credibility.
I don't imagine he can continue to expect you to function as his apologist, or can he?

you seem unable to understand that the ABCC and the BCF are separate organisations, with the ABCC having been in existence for a lot longer than BCs coaching section. if you want to argue about that, then that's up to you, the rest of us have better things to do.

As i have mentioned to you before i have a 1st Class Honours degree in Sports Science from the University of Brighton, and am a Level 3 ABCC coach.

Ric

 

[acoggan]

I've really made every effort, but really don't find your reply to my query clear at all. Actually, one might say it seems quite elusive. The query had nothing whatsoever to do with insurance. However, pursuant to your several suggestions I've contacted the BCF and they inform me that the ABCC has nothing to do with official British Cycling at all.
In fact, they indicated that the ABCC has absolutely no official status in Britain.
I find this quite disquieting. Don't you? Some might find it analogous to the difference between members of the Royal College of Surgeons and a similarly named group of imposters. Seems quite shameful, really.

I'm curious, bozy: where are you from? I ask because if you're from Great Britain, I assume you're aware that the BCF isn't the only body promoting competitve cycling there - the RTTC puts on races (solo ones, anyway) as well. So, why two official bodies? Simple: it's a byproduct of the history of the sport, nothing more and nothing less. This is the first I've learned of the distinction between the ABCC and BCF coaching certification programs, but given that multiple governing bodies can and do exist, why would you consider it "disquieting" when the same occurs in this context?

Here in the United States, we used to have the Amateur Bicycle League of America as the National Governing Body (as in, recognized by the federal government as being responsible for e.g., selecting our Olympic team) for amateur road and track cycling, US Pro regulating pro road and track cycling (such as it was at the time), and the National Off-Road Bicycle Association regulating MTB racing. I don't recall exactly when all these bodies merged under the USA Cycling banner, but I can tell you that I'm old enough to have held an ABLA license for many years.

On the coaching end of things, there is a USA Cycling Coaching Association that is technically independent of USA Cycling, although I'm not sure which is the chicken and which is the egg...

BTW, if anybody is insistent on taking advice only from individuals who are certified by a specific organization, then they shouldn't listen to anything I ever say, because I'm not a licensed coach!

 

[biker-linz]

I've really made every effort, but really don't find your reply to my query clear at all.

"..they are not affiliated to the BCF .." and "..neither one is affiliated with the other.."
????

However, pursuant to your several suggestions I've contacted the BCF

I never suggested any such thing but rock on!

and they inform me that the ABCC has nothing to do with official British Cycling at all.

Which is what I said on two separate occasions. You could have saved yourself the price of a phone call.

In fact, they indicated that the ABCC has absolutely no official status in Britain.
I find this quite disquieting. Don't you? Some might find it analogous to the difference between members of the Royal College of Surgeons and a similarly named group of imposters. Seems quite shameful, really.

Not in the slightest. We are *not* surgeons. We are coaches. The ABCC is a widely recognised and respected body in the UK (and elsewhere). If you have some kind of personal beef with them, as I said before, you should contact them directly.

L.

 

[biker-linz]

I ask because if you're from Great Britain, I assume you're aware that the BCF isn't the only body promoting competitve cycling there - the RTTC puts on races (solo ones, anyway) as well.

Not to mention the TLI and LVRC.

L.

 

[acoggan]

You're a better man than I am, Lindsay. My immediate reaction was that gholl is just a bitter, senile crackpot.

And I think that bozy, who only joined this forum today, is just a troll - perhaps even gholl himself, trying to score points by making the same off-the-wall statements but in a somewhat less offensive manner.

 

[bozy]

I'm curious, bozy: where are you from? I ask because if you're from Great Britain, I assume you're aware that the BCF isn't the only body promoting competitve cycling there - the RTTC puts on races (solo ones, anyway) as well. So, why two official bodies? Simple: it's a byproduct of the history of the sport, nothing more and nothing less. This is the first I've learned of the distinction between the ABCC and BCF coaching certification programs, but given that multiple governing bodies can and do exist, why would you consider it "disquieting" when the same occurs in this context?

Here in the United States, we used to have the Amateur Bicycle League of America as the National Governing Body (as in, recognized by the federal government as being responsible for e.g., selecting our Olympic team) for amateur road and track cycling, US Pro regulating pro road and track cycling (such as it was at the time), and the National Off-Road Bicycle Association regulating MTB racing. I don't recall exactly when all these bodies merged under the USA Cycling banner, but I can tell you that I'm old enough to have held an ABLA license for many years.

On the coaching end of things, there is a USA Cycling Coaching Association that is technically independent of USA Cycling, although I'm not sure which is the chicken and which is the egg...

BTW, if anybody is insistent on taking advice only from individuals who are certified by a specific organization, then they shouldn't listen to anything I ever say, because I'm not a licensed coach!

The issue is not where I'm from but the legal status of the official coaching organization in Great Britain.
Are individuals not members of the BCF official coaches or not? The BCF tells me they are not. The elusiveness of ABCC members in answering this simple query informs me they know they're not. It's all about credibility, or lack of it.
I think we've got our answer anyhow.
Where's our friend Ric hiding? The more serious questions about his credibility have yet to be answered.
I'm wondering who will front for him next!

 

[Mansmind]

I've really made every effort, but really don't find your reply to my query clear at all. Actually, one might say it seems quite elusive. The query had nothing whatsoever to do with insurance. However, pursuant to your several suggestions I've contacted the BCF and they inform me that the ABCC has nothing to do with official British Cycling at all.
In fact, they indicated that the ABCC has absolutely no official status in Britain.
I find this quite disquieting. Don't you? Some might find it analogous to the difference between members of the Royal College of Surgeons and a similarly named group of imposters. Seems quite shameful, really.
Furthermore, I'm deeply surprised that Ric himself has not come forth to reply to the questions regarding his own lack of credibility.
I don't imagine he can continue to expect you to function as his apologist, or can he?

I must ask, what does this possibly have to do with ANYTHING? Noone ever made a claim that they were associated, in fact, it's been CLEARLY stated that they do not.

Where did the impression that they were "supposed to be" come from? Just because they both have British Cycling in the name? That's a common enough term that I suspect you could find it in other places also.

What does the existence or non-existence have to do with credibility? These coaches (like all others) establish credibility based upon their success/knowledge, etc. not because of some association.

This whole "inquisition" is pointless, it's just flatly immaterial to the discussion at hand. Get real.

John

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I'm curious, bozy: where are you from?

bozy is gholl, he's from USA

Ric