Power..did it really make a difference to you?

beldon said:

the information on this forum seems very complicated to me at times which is putting me off a little.

One word - Coach

beldon said:

Its too late for me if you have any negative comments as my refurbished SRM`s are en route.

Just a quick question though...Has your power purchase made any REAL difference to your race performances?? Could it be that you could have achieved those goals purely by training with your heart monitor??

My problem is that although I will do my MAP etc, the information on this forum seems very complicated to me at times which is putting me off a little.

What has power done for me...?
I'd say it's made me fitter -- i don't slack off in training as much as i used to

it motivates me -- seeing power data keeps me motivated (and thus stops me slacking - see above)

efficiency -- i don't waste time doing training that isn't effective (unless i want to)

goal setting -- i can set more clearly defined goals. these goals are also motivating

tracking -- i can track my progress and my goals far more clearly, which leads to higher motivation

racing -- during racing the power meter can act as my coach, helping me to pace better and not overcook things. or to dig deeper when i would otherwise ease up

plus lots of other stuff

As regards the complicatedness (is that a real word?) of the info here or other places, it's true that power data can be confusing, and not everyone wants to deal with it. However, there's some excellent info on the net about training with power - look for work by Andy Coggan, Charles Howe, (http://midweekclub.ca/powerFAQ.htm) and stuff by me (see http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern for introductory stuff).

Additionally, you can post your questions here in this forum, engage a coach (who understand power training, such as the RST group). We also offer a consultancy service if you want some specific queries answering - give me a shout at [email hidden]

cheers
ric

beldon said:

Its too late for me if you have any negative comments as my refurbished SRM`s are en route.

Just a quick question though...Has your power purchase made any REAL difference to your race performances?? Could it be that you could have achieved those goals purely by training with your heart monitor??

My problem is that although I will do my MAP etc, the information on this forum seems very complicated to me at times which is putting me off a little.

For some people the power data may not be very useful at all or seem like too much work. Some folks really like to analyze data and motivate themselves by improving against their prior measured and expected performance. Other people don't need this. It depends on the rider.

beldon said:

Could it be that you could have achieved those goals purely by training with your heart monitor??

The short answer...maybe.

I equate training without a power meter to playing golf without keeping score. If you don't keep score how do you know if you're getting better?

What I've found to be most beneficial is the ability to capture race data and understand what the demands of the race were and then match that up with my training.

For example, last year I did a hilly road race and was dropped towards the end on one of the two climbs we did each lap. With my data from that race I now have the ability to mimic the power I was using to climb the hill when I wasn't getting dropped.

This year when I train on that course I'll know what it’s likely to take in watts to stay with the group on that climb until the end of the race. There are obviously some assumptions that I'll have to make like assuming this year's race will be similar to last years, but in any case what I'll be doing is a far cry better than what I'd do without the data which would simply be guessing as to whether or not my efforts in training are as hard as what I should expect during the race. I’ve learned that for me they generally aren’t quite as hard, which I’d suspect is the case for most of us. The numbers don’t lie like your head sometimes does when gauging efforts.

Another benefit I’ve found to be valuable is the ability to measure training stress. If you read Andy’s paper you’ll get a better understanding of what this is, but in a nutshell using your power meter you’ll be able to better judge your training load and know when you need to rest and when you can press on. A simple example would be comparing a one hour crit to a one hour recovery ride. If you’re just summing training hours both workouts look the same from a training volume perspective. It’s obvious they aren’t and if you use your training stress scores to quantify your training load instead of purely hours this will become very apparent.

Ric mentions many other benefits that I agree with. Another side benefit is the ability to monitor energy produced during a ride to facilitate a more accurate method of weight loss. With your SRM you’ll be able to more accurately monitor kJ’s than you would with a HRM.

There are downsides as well and if you don’t like dealing with numbers, graphs, etc. you can still benefit from using a power meter, but you may best be suited to work with a coach who can interpret the data for you.

The reality is that cycling is all about power (whether one uses a power meter or not). In training, our common goal is to increase sustainable power. In a race, our common goal is to use our sustainable power to our maximum advantage. In a TT, it's obvious how we want to use our power -- for the shortest elapsed time. In a crit or RR, it's less obvious but the name of the game is still to use our power to our maximum advantage. For one rider, that may suggest a strategy of conserving power and trying to win the sprint. For another rider, that may suggest a strategy of attempting a break on a climb. Either way or for the myriad other possible strategies, the name of the game is to exploit our one finite resource, sustainable power, to our competitive advantage. Even with a PM, I don't have all the tools I want to manage my sustainable power. Without a PM, I'd be at a loss, just riding by feel alone. PMs are one of the three great developments in cycling in the last few decades -- the others being bike fabrication materials and techniques and aerodynamic equipment such as aero bars and wheels.

Thanks for the replies. I do like working with numbers and with my current HAC4 HR monitor, I analyse my HR data to death. It will be great to do intervals properly and know exactly when i`m slacking.

I seem to have hit a plateau and so I`m hoping this will take me on again.

The SRM will be on my TT bike as thats what I do and I will be sticking to HR for the base/threshold rides and just using the PM for racing and the really good quality intervals. I do have a coach as part of the team that i ride for (very well respected at that too), but he is not into the power game just yet.

I will just have to rely on you lot to maybe put some of your information into plain english if i get out of my depth!! 🙂

ric_stern/RST said:

What has power done for me...?
I'd say it's made me fitter -- i don't slack off in training as much as i used to

it motivates me -- seeing power data keeps me motivated (and thus stops me slacking - see above)

efficiency -- i don't waste time doing training that isn't effective (unless i want to)

goal setting -- i can set more clearly defined goals. these goals are also motivating

tracking -- i can track my progress and my goals far more clearly, which leads to higher motivation

racing -- during racing the power meter can act as my coach, helping me to pace better and not overcook things. or to dig deeper when i would otherwise ease up

plus lots of other stuff

As regards the complicatedness (is that a real word?) of the info here or other places, it's true that power data can be confusing, and not everyone wants to deal with it. However, there's some excellent info on the net about training with power - look for work by Andy Coggan, Charles Howe, (midweekclub.capowerFAQ.htmOpen ↗) and stuff by me (see cyclingnews.comfitnessOpen ↗ for introductory stuff).

Additionally, you can post your questions here in this forum, engage a coach (who understand power training, such as the RST group). We also offer a consultancy service if you want some specific queries answering - give me a shout at [email hidden]

cheers
ric

I do actually realise all the above regards tracking etc, but my original question was whether in real terms it had improved your cycling. (ie. Did your 10/25 mile TT improve by a minute for example?)

Have e mailed you Ric by the way. Thanks again

beldon said:

The SRM will be on my TT bike as thats what I do and I will be sticking to HR for the base/threshold rides and just using the PM for racing and the really good quality intervals. I do have a coach as part of the team that i ride for (very well respected at that too), but he is not into the power game just yet.

Maybe you should change coaches or your coach should keep up with the times - it's a responsibility of the profession.

beldon said:

I do actually realise all the above regards tracking etc, but my original question was whether in real terms it had improved your cycling. (ie. Did your 10/25 mile TT improve by a minute for example?)

Have e mailed you Ric by the way. Thanks again

There is no way to prove whether or not a power meter made a difference or if people just would have gotten stronger each year no matter what. Someone asked a similar question before and there is no double blind study that one can use to state unequivocally that a power meter improves your cycling ability. Anyone who spends that much money on such a device has a vested interest in wanting to succeed or think it works. One will rationalize the purchase. I say this and I own way too many power meters.

Woofer said:

Maybe you should change coaches or your coach should keep up with the times - it's a responsibility of the profession.

Not necessarily. He has been very successful up to now doing it on HR (and continues to be). I have every faith in him as a coach but I want to try and do something differently. He can still prescribe me the correct workload but I can now do it on power when he does my next ramp test.

He`s got me down from 1hr 9 mins over 25 miles to a 52 mins and 4th and 5th places in our National 12 hour champs, so he cant be that bad.

One thing I needed to work out was what a real sub 21 minute 10 was in terms of power. I looked at some websites and my PB was meant to be around 415w which I found difficult to believe. I spoke with someone who has SRMS and his sub 21s were close to 300w and his 52 min 25 was 300w.

I have only just started training with a powertap and doing about 250w, I thought I'd never get to 415w, but I am now a lot happier knowing 300+w is a realistic target.

bigbevans said:

One thing I needed to work out was what a real sub 21 minute 10 was in terms of power. I looked at some websites and my PB was meant to be around 415w which I found difficult to believe. I spoke with someone who has SRMS and his sub 21s were close to 300w and his 52 min 25 was 300w.

I have only just started training with a powertap and doing about 250w, I thought I'd never get to 415w, but I am now a lot happier knowing 300+w is a realistic target.

One thing to bear in mind is that perhaps the rider you spoke to is smaller than you (as your name is "big"!). Thus, the smaller rider may require a lot less power than you to travel at the same velocity. At 300 W and 52 mins, that suggests the other rider's position is very well optimised (with a CdA of ~ 0.2).

For what it's worth at that power i can only manage a 22-minute 10 (on a J course, for UK riders), which of course is dependent on environmental conditions and my own height and mass (1.75 m, 68 kg), plus my equipment.

Another point to consider is that the SRM's may not be calibrated, whereas the PT is more likely to be calibrated. Plus there's a ~2% difference between the systems.

Ric

beldon said:

The SRM will be on my TT bike as thats what I do and I will be sticking to HR for the base/threshold rides and just using the PM for racing and the really good quality intervals. I do have a coach as part of the team that i ride for (very well respected at that too), but he is not into the power game just yet.

Training and racing with a PM are two completely different issues. I'm not sure anybody can prove that he/she developed more sustainable power with a PM than he/she could have with a HRM (or nothing at all). After all, you develop more sustainable power because of physiological adaptations and the body doesn't know you're using a PM -- you do the work, it adapts. The question is whether you can or will do different, better or more effective work with a PM. I believe I do, but I think that will vary from person to person. But, racing is a different issue entirely. If your specialty is TTs, I expect to be in a position soon to prove that one can ride a faster TT with power than without power. In fact, I look forward to taking on Andy C's assertion that top TTers intuitively manage their power optimally. [But, read carefully: I said "with power." I did not say "with today's power meters."]

beldon said:

The SRM will be on my TT bike as thats what I do and I will be sticking to HR for the base/threshold rides and just using the PM for racing and the really good quality intervals. I do have a coach as part of the team that i ride for (very well respected at that too), but he is not into the power game just yet.

Sort of seems like you will not be maximizing your PM. But t each their own I guess. You PM will really shine in threshold rides. Where so many factors can impact cardiac drift. At least I found It really changed those rides for me.

ric_stern/RST said:

One thing to bear in mind is that perhaps the rider you spoke to is smaller than you (as your name is "big"!). Thus, the smaller rider may require a lot less power than you to travel at the same velocity. At 300 W and 52 mins, that suggests the other rider's position is very well optimised (with a CdA of ~ 0.2).

For what it's worth at that power i can only manage a 22-minute 10 (on a J course, for UK riders), which of course is dependent on environmental conditions and my own height and mass (1.75 m, 68 kg), plus my equipment.

Another point to consider is that the SRM's may not be calibrated, whereas the PT is more likely to be calibrated. Plus there's a ~2% difference between the systems.

Ric

I am actually 1.67m 75kg, used to be bigger 83kgs, hence the name. I have only ever ridden one J course the J7/8 and that was a short 22.

I guess I will only really learn more about my power vs times as I start doing some racing and the season progresses.

Ric have you got any photos of your position? This is mine http://www.cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/galleries_popup.asp?imgTitle=Brian%20Evans&imgPath=http://www.kimroyphotography.co.uk/images/1535/Large/Evans-Brian_1535-191.JPG&PhotographerInc=kimroy_copyright.htm

beldon rings a bell! were you or are you a member of the arborwood TT forum in the UK?

anyway, to add my two penneth, so much of this game is phsycological that i feel this is where the power meter adds value. such things as the need to maintain a certain power number to the end of an interval, to not put in a ride that's below my previous numbers, to achieve a certain number for a certain duration, and to compare myself directly to the pro's abilities are all reasons why i beleive that having a power meter lifts my game.

every time i get on my (SRM equipped) bike its like a race car that's been checked into a performance tuning centre, put on the rollers, and someone is specifically analysing peak power output, torque, etc.

here we are on new years eve, i dont FEEL fitter than i did a year ago, but what makes me happy is not how i did in races this year, or PB's, but the improvements I've seen in my power outputs (from 225 watts for 20 mins in my first race of the year and in fact my first race in 8 years, to 290 watts today).

robkit said:

improvements I've seen in my power outputs (from 225 watts for 20 mins in my first race of the year and in fact my first race in 8 years, to 290 watts today).

Awesome! Good work.

thanks and a happy new year to you RapDaddyo, i've valued reading your motivational & highly analytical posts this year. if everyone took cycling so seriously the races would be a lot harder!

somehow i think that getting to my 2006 "target" of 350 watts for 20 mins is going to be tougher!..

robkit said:

beldon rings a bell! were you or are you a member of the arborwood TT forum in the UK?

anyway, to add my two penneth, so much of this game is phsycological that i feel this is where the power meter adds value. such things as the need to maintain a certain power number to the end of an interval, to not put in a ride that's below my previous numbers, to achieve a certain number for a certain duration, and to compare myself directly to the pro's abilities are all reasons why i beleive that having a power meter lifts my game.

every time i get on my (SRM equipped) bike its like a race car that's been checked into a performance tuning centre, put on the rollers, and someone is specifically analysing peak power output, torque, etc.

here we are on new years eve, i dont FEEL fitter than i did a year ago, but what makes me happy is not how i did in races this year, or PB's, but the improvements I've seen in my power outputs (from 225 watts for 20 mins in my first race of the year and in fact my first race in 8 years, to 290 watts today).

Do you TT? If so what sort of times are you doing with 290 watts?