_.-In rec.food.cooking, Shaun aRe wrote the following -._
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Ahhh, lambic beers - another style I've yet to try! So, what do they taste like, are they slightly sour from the (malo-lactic is it?) bacterial ferment? Gotta find me some to try for sure...
There is a sourness to them. I had one last night at Bier Garden in Old Town Portsmith here in VA. A German themed place. They had more Belgum beers than they did German. Good stuff. The food wasn't that great but the beer was tasty.
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Ahhh, lambic beers - another style I've yet to try! So, what do they taste like, are they slightly sour from the (malo-lactic is it?) bacterial ferment? Gotta find me some to try for sure...
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3. What makes a Lambic so different?
Several things. Generally, the first thing that a taster notices is that the beer is sour. In the case of a good, traditional Lambic, like those made by Cantillon or Frank Boon, the beer can be extremely sour. Lambics usually have a very complex aroma and flavor that is caused by the assortment of wild yeasts and bacteria present. Lambics also have no hop character at all, only aged hops are used. Beyond that, the best thing is to taste a few.
Lambics are unique in their brewing process in that they use spontaneous fermentation, that is, wild yeasts that occur naturally in the open air and are fermented in large open vats that expose them to these natural yeasts. I recall a picture of a lambic vat. Sucker had more cobwebs than a Hollywood haunted house just inches above the vat. All that spider [censored] and dead insects spicing up the brew. Yum! 🙂
The type of beer depends on the type of water. Soft waters of Germany, lager and pilsners. Hard water of Ireland, stouts. England, ales and porters. All these styles are dictated by the water.
Maybe you are right in principle that a particular type of water is better suited to a particular type of beer. Not sure of your examples, though. Beer has been brewed for thousands of years of course, with many different types emerging. Yet, until relatively recently all those types used to be top-fermented, i.e. by modern definition ales. Lagers (and pilsners, which are lagers, too), which are bottom-fermented, are a fairly recent phenomenon and I'm not sure it was a particular type of water that led to their emergence and their ever wider spreading.
Maybe you are right in principle that a particular type of water is better suited to a particular type of beer. Not sure of your examples, though. Beer has been brewed for thousands of years of course, with many different types emerging. Yet, until relatively recently all those types used to be top-fermented, i.e. by modern definition ales. Lagers (and pilsners, which are lagers, too), which are bottom-fermented, are a fairly recent phenomenon and I'm not sure it was a particular type of water that led to their emergence and their ever wider spreading.
Lagers originated in Bavaria where they were lagerned (stored) at lower temps in alpine caves. The yeast that survived these lower temps were bottom fermenting. While these low temp yeasts weren't formally identified till the early 18th century, I suspect Bavarian brewers were making use of those same caves long before the propeller heads got involved.
As for the beer types, one of the differences between lagers and true pilsners is Czech water is even softer than German water.
Ever tasted European water ??? YUGGHK !! No wonder they drink wine or beer with meals. And yet this questionable water makes great beer ! Go figure....
As a a matter of fact, I have tasted European water. There is nothing
wrong
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with it.
As I commented to RJ - there isn't *one* European water - that would be like saying that all water in the US is the damned same - there will be good water in some locales, mediocre tasting water in others, and indeed foul water in yet other different places.
Cheers!
Shaun aRe
I stand corrected.
I shouldn't have applied the experiences I had to a whole continent. It was rather naive of me. So.... wy do ( some ) European beers taste so much better ? The water ? the ingredients ? the brew-meister ?
I shouldn't have applied the experiences I had to a whole continent. It was rather naive of me. So.... wy do ( some ) European beers taste so much better ? The water ? the ingredients ? the brew-meister ?
Those guys have been at it for years and create specific brews with lots of flavours. North American beers, like fast foods and other commercial preparations tend to be geared toward a wider range of users, eliminating those rough edges to make them less offensive to all. They go go the lowest common denominator. They also tend to market heavily, so the consumers seem to be more attracted to the life style represented in the ads than the product itself.
So.... wy do ( some ) European beers taste so much better ? The water ? the ingredients ? the brew-meister ?
The customers.
Sadly, that seems to be the case. They are more likely to be impressed with slick advertising and cheap prices than a quality product. Profit minded breweries pump out low quality products without much character because there are so many people who don't appreciate the good stuff.
[of the importance of the type of water for the type of beer]
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As for the beer types, one of the differences between lagers and true pilsners is Czech water is even softer than German water.
Yes, and, as I said, I think there is indeed more than just something to be said about the suitability of a particular type of water to a particular beer type, but I think that your upthread examples and conclusions are not necessarily valid or are maybe just too general. If you read German, here is the most exhaustive information I know on the technical characteristics, water type included, of various beer types: <http://www.kgbier.de/Biersorten.html>. They do not always support your argument as far as I can see. For example, extremely soft water is supposed to be used for Kölsch, a Cologne top-fermented (i.e. ale) specialty. Hard water is used for Dortmunder Export type of beer, a very popular German kind. Stouts require only moderately hard water, as harder water prevents the dry finish expected with these beers. Sorry that I can't provide a similarly authoritative source in English right now... no time to spare for the search... or maybe there is none... :-(
If you read German, here is the most exhaustive information I know on the technical characteristics, water type included, of various beer types: <http://www.kgbier.de/Biersorten.html>.
[snip]
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Sorry that I can't provide a similarly authoritative source in English right now... no time to spare for the search... or maybe there is none... :-(
I've now found the English counterpart... the link was right there on the Web page I mentioned... duh!
"<RJ>" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:04:59 +0100, "Shaun aRe"
<[email hidden]>
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> Ever tasted European water ??? YUGGHK !! > No wonder they drink wine or beer with meals. > And yet this questionable water makes great beer ! > Go figure....
As a a matter of fact, I have tasted European water. There is nothing
wrong
Quoted message said:
with it.
As I commented to RJ - there isn't *one* European water - that would be
like
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Quoted message said:
saying that all water in the US is the damned same - there will be good water in some locales, mediocre tasting water in others, and indeed foul water in yet other different places.
Cheers!
Shaun aRe
I stand corrected.
I shouldn't have applied the experiences I had to a whole continent. It was rather naive of me.
Maybe a little, RJ, but you are of course forgiven LOL! ',;~}~
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So.... wy do ( some ) European beers taste so much better ? The water ? the ingredients ? the brew-meister ?
The simplest and most accurate answer to that question, would be *yes*. ',;~}~
"Dave Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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Shaun aRe said:
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Ever tasted European water ??? YUGGHK !! No wonder they drink wine or beer with meals. And yet this questionable water makes great beer ! Go figure....
Hey - there *isn't* /a/ *European water*. Hells man, even in England
alone
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the water can differ vastly in taste and quality between towns as close together as just 5 miles. Not only this, but a lot of breweries
throughout
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Europe (which is *not* one little country, by the way!), are built on clearsprings, and that is the water used in these cases. HTH!
Would it surprise you that a someone who asks "Ever tasted European
water"
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probably hasn't tasted it himself. There are close to 2 dozen countries,
each
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with a wide source of water sources and each divided into states,
provinces
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and cities with jurisdiction over water services.
Indeed matey!
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Only a fool would have expected a common taste.
Fool may be a little strong a word - we're all learning all the time aren't we?
"Victor Sack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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notbob said:
The type of beer depends on the type of water. Soft waters of Germany, lager and pilsners. Hard water of Ireland, stouts. England, ales and porters. All these styles are dictated by the water.
Maybe you are right in principle that a particular type of water is better suited to a particular type of beer. Not sure of your examples, though. Beer has been brewed for thousands of years of course, with many different types emerging. Yet, until relatively recently all those types used to be top-fermented, i.e. by modern definition ales. Lagers (and pilsners, which are lagers, too), which are bottom-fermented, are a fairly recent phenomenon and I'm not sure it was a particular type of water that led to their emergence and their ever wider spreading.
Victor
Lagers are not only bottom fermented, they are cold fermented. Top fermenting yeasts are no good at those temps.
"Dave Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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Shaun aRe said:
Yeah, all that 'Reassuringly Expensive' ad. nonsense - it's an *ok*
lager
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IMO, worth the price but not the best for that money. I'd rather drink Kronenbourg 1664 myself - much more flavourful and subtle. Stella is a
bit
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of a rough old [censored] really!
I mentioned previously about travelling through western Europe with two brothers, both of whom love beer. They drank the local beer wherever we
went
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and 1664 was one of their top rated beers, right behind Carlsburg Elephant beer and Bittburger.
My wife likes it best out of all the most readily available mass produced lagers. I must admit I quite enjoy the Elephant too (named after the Elephant(s?) on the brewery gates, apparently). Quite a strong one - about 7-ish%abv IIRC?
"Faux_Pseudo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ZWHXe.28919$dm.22711@lakeread03...
Quoted message said:
_.-In rec.food.cooking, Shaun aRe wrote the following -._
Quoted message said:
Ahhh, lambic beers - another style I've yet to try! So, what do they
taste
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
like, are they slightly sour from the (malo-lactic is it?) bacterial ferment? Gotta find me some to try for sure...
There is a sourness to them. I had one last night at Bier Garden in Old Town Portsmith here in VA. A German themed place. They had more Belgum beers than they did German. Good stuff. The food wasn't that great but the beer was tasty.
Right, that does it - gonna try and find me some hereabouts. There's a VERY good wine merchants nearby that tends to stock things like this too... hmmm... !
"notbob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Shaun aRe said:
Ahhh, lambic beers - another style I've yet to try! So, what do they
taste
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
like, are they slightly sour from the (malo-lactic is it?) bacterial ferment? Gotta find me some to try for sure...
-----------
3. What makes a Lambic so different?
Several things. Generally, the first thing that a taster notices is that the beer is sour. In the case of a good, traditional Lambic, like those made by Cantillon or Frank Boon, the beer can be extremely sour. Lambics usually have a very complex aroma and flavor that is caused by the assortment of wild yeasts and bacteria present. Lambics also have no hop character at all, only aged hops are used. Beyond that, the best thing is to taste a few.
Lambics are unique in their brewing process in that they use spontaneous fermentation, that is, wild yeasts that occur naturally in the open air and are fermented in large open vats that expose them to these natural yeasts. I recall a picture of a lambic vat. Sucker had more cobwebs than a Hollywood haunted house just inches above the vat. All that spider [censored] and dead insects spicing up the brew. Yum! 🙂
Thanks for the extra info NB!
I knew a little about them and even remembered some of that (heh...) from hanging on the brewing groups some time ago - you filled in a few memory holes and more for me!
Shaun aRe - Heheheheh, he said 'spider [censored]', heheheheheh!
Lagers are not only bottom fermented, they are cold fermented. Top fermenting yeasts are no good at those temps.
Yes, but there are exceptions. The first lagers were actually ales, since they were conventionally top-fermented and only stored at low temperatures ("lager" means "storage place"; "lagern" means "to store"😉. Today, Düsseldorfer Alt and Kölsch, both ales, are made exactly that way - they are fermented at high (relative to modern lagers) temperatures, but stored at low temperatures. On the other hand, there are also lagers, using lager yeasts, that are fermented at relatively high temperatures, too, Anchor Steam being one example. Also, Cream Ales, for example, are fermented at relatively low temperatures.
