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Pot hole perfect storm

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Cycling Equipment
Published
11 May 2006
Last activity
15 May 2006
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Doug Taylor
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  1. We on rbt have learned to avoid squirrels and plastics bags, but don't
    forget your basic road hazards.

    So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
    folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
    in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
    over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
    rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
    whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked and now
    trash.

    Wheel being repaired by the wheel guru at the LBS; hopefully it will
    spin without a hitch in it's circumference. Al in all, a pretty
    expensive little incident, but cheaper than a crash and a busted
    clavicle, I suppose. And somehow avoided a front wheel taco and fork
    failure. And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
    if it were carbon?

  2. Doug Taylor said:

    And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
    if it were carbon?

    No.

    JT

    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
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  3. John Forrest Tomlinson said:
    Doug Taylor said:

    And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
    if it were carbon?

    No.

    JT

    Well, he did crack his handlebar in this incident. And I must say that
    I find it a little alarming that such products are produced for the
    purpose of using them on a bicycle, on roads which may have the
    occasional big bump in them.

    Are bicycles now only for use on glass-smooth surfaces?

    --
    Ted Bennett

  4. Ted Bennett said:
    Quoted message said:
    Doug Taylor said:

    And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
    if it were carbon?

    No.

    Well, he did crack his handlebar in this incident. And I must say that
    I find it a little alarming that such products are produced for the
    purpose of using them on a bicycle, on roads which may have the
    occasional big bump in them.

    Are bicycles now only for use on glass-smooth surfaces?

    More to the point, if not riding on glass roads, why did the OP buy CF
    bars?

    I saw an aquaintence recently for the first time in a few years. Asked
    how he'd been and he said he recently had 2 broken arms. CF bars on
    mtn bike broke. Sheesh.

    dkl

  5. Doug Taylor said:

    We on rbt have learned to avoid squirrels and plastics bags, but don't
    forget your basic road hazards.

    So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
    folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
    in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
    over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
    rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
    whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked

    do you have a pic? i'm interested in differentiating between cracked
    and scratched.

    Quoted message said:

    and now
    trash.

    Wheel being repaired by the wheel guru at the LBS; hopefully it will
    spin without a hitch in it's circumference. Al in all, a pretty
    expensive little incident, but cheaper than a crash and a busted
    clavicle, I suppose. And somehow avoided a front wheel taco and fork
    failure. And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
    if it were carbon?

    i destroyed two wheels in a similar accident a few months back. carbon
    fork survived perfectly and i'm still riding it. i weigh 205.

  6. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Wheel being repaired by the wheel guru at the LBS; hopefully it will
    spin without a hitch in it's circumference. Al in all, a pretty
    expensive little incident, but cheaper than a crash and a busted
    clavicle, I suppose. And somehow avoided a front wheel taco and fork
    failure. And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
    if it were carbon?

    i destroyed two wheels in a similar accident a few months back. carbon
    fork survived perfectly and i'm still riding it. i weigh 205.

    Please keep in mind that carbon can be damaged in ways that aren't obvious.
    Don't assume they're fine without thoroughly checking them. For what it's
    worth, I haven't seen carbon forks (or frames) damaged from hitting a
    pothole, at least not one that could be ridden through, but I can assume
    that it does happen... it's certainly happened in the past to frames made of
    other materials. Everything has its limits.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

    "jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Doug Taylor said:

    We on rbt have learned to avoid squirrels and plastics bags, but don't
    forget your basic road hazards.

    So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
    folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
    in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
    over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
    rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
    whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked

    do you have a pic? i'm interested in differentiating between cracked and
    scratched.

    Quoted message said:

    and now
    trash.

    Wheel being repaired by the wheel guru at the LBS; hopefully it will
    spin without a hitch in it's circumference. Al in all, a pretty
    expensive little incident, but cheaper than a crash and a busted
    clavicle, I suppose. And somehow avoided a front wheel taco and fork
    failure. And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
    if it were carbon?

    i destroyed two wheels in a similar accident a few months back. carbon
    fork survived perfectly and i'm still riding it. i weigh 205.

  7. Quoted message said:

    So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
    folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
    in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
    over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
    rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
    whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked and now
    trash.

    That (the broken bar) concerns me. Is it possible the bars may have been
    damaged previously from excessive torque on the fixing bolts?

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

    "Doug Taylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    We on rbt have learned to avoid squirrels and plastics bags, but don't
    forget your basic road hazards.

    So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
    folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
    in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
    over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
    rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
    whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked and now
    trash.

    Wheel being repaired by the wheel guru at the LBS; hopefully it will
    spin without a hitch in it's circumference. Al in all, a pretty
    expensive little incident, but cheaper than a crash and a busted
    clavicle, I suppose. And somehow avoided a front wheel taco and fork
    failure. And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
    if it were carbon?

  8. Mike Jacoubowsky said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Wheel being repaired by the wheel guru at the LBS; hopefully it will
    spin without a hitch in it's circumference. Al in all, a pretty
    expensive little incident, but cheaper than a crash and a busted
    clavicle, I suppose. And somehow avoided a front wheel taco and fork
    failure. And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
    if it were carbon?

    i destroyed two wheels in a similar accident a few months back. carbon
    fork survived perfectly and i'm still riding it. i weigh 205.

    Please keep in mind that carbon can be damaged in ways that aren't obvious.
    Don't assume they're fine without thoroughly checking them.

    as general advice that's absolutely true. in my case, be assured that
    this /was/ thoroughly inspected before reuse. my point was that carbon
    is not necessarily a risk, and indeed, is frequently stronger than
    conventional materials as evidenced by crash survival. i am certain
    that a steel fork would have bent in my situation having had experience
    of bending several steel forks in similar circumstances.

    Quoted message said:

    For what it's
    worth, I haven't seen carbon forks (or frames) damaged from hitting a
    pothole, at least not one that could be ridden through, but I can assume
    that it does happen... it's certainly happened in the past to frames made of
    other materials. Everything has its limits.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

    "jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Doug Taylor said:

    We on rbt have learned to avoid squirrels and plastics bags, but don't
    forget your basic road hazards.

    So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
    folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
    in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
    over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
    rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
    whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked

    do you have a pic? i'm interested in differentiating between cracked and
    scratched.

    Quoted message said:

    and now
    trash.

    Wheel being repaired by the wheel guru at the LBS; hopefully it will
    spin without a hitch in it's circumference. Al in all, a pretty
    expensive little incident, but cheaper than a crash and a busted
    clavicle, I suppose. And somehow avoided a front wheel taco and fork
    failure. And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
    if it were carbon?

    i destroyed two wheels in a similar accident a few months back. carbon
    fork survived perfectly and i'm still riding it. i weigh 205.

  9. Mike Jacoubowsky said:
    Quoted message said:

    So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
    folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
    in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
    over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
    rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
    whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked and now
    trash.

    That (the broken bar) concerns me. Is it possible the bars may have been
    damaged previously from excessive torque on the fixing bolts?

    This was a widely discussed topic in our club after the incident. To
    respond to an earlier post, that there was a crack and not a scratch
    was obvious before removing the bar tape because of the visible flex
    in the bar when any weight was put on it. The crack was clearly
    somewhere between the first bend in the bar and the brifter (left
    side). More than one person opined that I must have over torqued the
    bolt when attaching the brifter, thus scoring and weakeninging the
    carbon at that point in the bar.

    I rode back to the parking lot with hands on top of the bar, which was
    intact. After removing the tape, the crack was revealed to be on the
    bottom side of the bar at the first bend - well above the brifter - in
    a place nowhere near any fixing bolt

    Post script: I e-mailed Kestrel on the off-chance of a warranty
    claim, but after they assured me that this "could not happen," they
    blew me off because I had purchased the bar on e-bay (new in box) and
    of course had dumped all the paperwork. Nothing against Kestrel and
    not that I expected anything from them.

    Oh, and I immediately went online and purchased another carbon bar on
    e-bay, though no Kestrels were available. Don't know about the rest
    of you, but virtually EVERY part (except chain, cables, and housing)
    on all my bikes (2 road, 2 mountain) have been e-bay purchases, and
    this cracked bar is the only issue I've had in the past 4 or 5
    years.exceptt

  10. Quoted message said:


    Ted Bennett said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:58:22 -0400, Doug Taylor
    <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
    >if it were carbon?

    No.

    Well, he did crack his handlebar in this incident. And I must say that
    I find it a little alarming that such products are produced for the
    purpose of using them on a bicycle, on roads which may have the
    occasional big bump in them.

    Are bicycles now only for use on glass-smooth surfaces?

    More to the point, if not riding on glass roads, why did the OP buy CF
    bars?

    I saw an aquaintence recently for the first time in a few years. Asked
    how he'd been and he said he recently had 2 broken arms. CF bars on
    mtn bike broke. Sheesh.

    The phrase "stupid light" was coined for good reason.

    The fact that something exists does not mean that one *must* use it.

    --
    Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
    Some gardening required to reply via email.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  11. Quoted message said:

    Post script: I e-mailed Kestrel on the off-chance of a warranty
    claim, but after they assured me that this "could not happen," they
    blew me off because I had purchased the bar on e-bay (new in box) and
    of course had dumped all the paperwork. Nothing against Kestrel and
    not that I expected anything from them.

    Oh, and I immediately went online and purchased another carbon bar on
    e-bay, though no Kestrels were available. Don't know about the rest
    of you, but virtually EVERY part (except chain, cables, and housing)
    on all my bikes (2 road, 2 mountain) have been e-bay purchases, and
    this cracked bar is the only issue I've had in the past 4 or 5
    years.exceptt

    Your post points out one potentially-significant issue with ebay purchases.
    Many manufacturers do *not* warrant components purchased through eBay,
    including Shimano and, apparently, Kestrel. No big deal with Shimano, as
    there are few components they make which, if they failed, could cause
    extremely-serious injury (sure, you hear about a crank once in a while, but
    it's very rare). With such components as forks and handlebars, where a
    failure could be pretty nasty, it's a good idea to have some deep-pockets
    standing behind the product. Lawyers will seize upon any possible reason to
    not be liable for a claim, and goods purchased through unauthorized channels
    is most definitely one of them. Just something to consider. On the other
    hand, if it's a major manufacturer and they have no issues with gray-market
    stuff, no problem. Just check out their warranty policies on their website.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

    "Doug Taylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Jacoubowsky said:
    Quoted message said:

    So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
    folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
    in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
    over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
    rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
    whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked and now
    trash.

    That (the broken bar) concerns me. Is it possible the bars may have been
    damaged previously from excessive torque on the fixing bolts?

    This was a widely discussed topic in our club after the incident. To
    respond to an earlier post, that there was a crack and not a scratch
    was obvious before removing the bar tape because of the visible flex
    in the bar when any weight was put on it. The crack was clearly
    somewhere between the first bend in the bar and the brifter (left
    side). More than one person opined that I must have over torqued the
    bolt when attaching the brifter, thus scoring and weakeninging the
    carbon at that point in the bar.

    I rode back to the parking lot with hands on top of the bar, which was
    intact. After removing the tape, the crack was revealed to be on the
    bottom side of the bar at the first bend - well above the brifter - in
    a place nowhere near any fixing bolt

    Post script: I e-mailed Kestrel on the off-chance of a warranty
    claim, but after they assured me that this "could not happen," they
    blew me off because I had purchased the bar on e-bay (new in box) and
    of course had dumped all the paperwork. Nothing against Kestrel and
    not that I expected anything from them.

    Oh, and I immediately went online and purchased another carbon bar on
    e-bay, though no Kestrels were available. Don't know about the rest
    of you, but virtually EVERY part (except chain, cables, and housing)
    on all my bikes (2 road, 2 mountain) have been e-bay purchases, and
    this cracked bar is the only issue I've had in the past 4 or 5
    years.exceptt

  12. Mike Jacoubowsky said:

    Your post points out one potentially-significant issue with ebay purchases.
    Many manufacturers do *not* warrant components purchased through eBay,
    including Shimano and, apparently, Kestrel.

    State law may negate such attempts to sidestep the issue, and nothing
    keeps them from being held liable in court for damages due to a truly
    defective (unrecalled) product's failure. Of course, in most cases,
    it's going to cost more to take them to court than the likely
    recovery, so they know that they're seldom going to face such a risk.

    As for whether it's essential to buy certain items through authorized
    channels so as to provide a clear path of warranty proof, it depends
    on your priorities and experience. That's a subjective matter, and
    everyone should make up their own mind about how to address it.
    --
    Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
    Some gardening required to reply via email.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  13. Quoted message said:

    As for whether it's essential to buy certain items through authorized
    channels so as to provide a clear path of warranty proof, it depends
    on your priorities and experience. That's a subjective matter, and
    everyone should make up their own mind about how to address it.

    Absolutely true. But people need to be aware of it. Most aren't; hence the
    number of people we get coming in with interesting failures that neither the
    selling party nor manufacturer are willing to take care of. It does happen.
    Could somebody force the issue legally (assuming the manufacturer has a
    US-based presence)? Possibly, for a lot more trouble than it's probably
    worth. But if you look at what's going on with various consumer items,
    especially camera gear, you'll see an increasingly hard-nosed attitude about
    such things.

    --Mike Jacoubowsky
    Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReaction.com
    Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

    "Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Jacoubowsky said:

    Your post points out one potentially-significant issue with ebay
    purchases.
    Many manufacturers do *not* warrant components purchased through eBay,
    including Shimano and, apparently, Kestrel.

    State law may negate such attempts to sidestep the issue, and nothing
    keeps them from being held liable in court for damages due to a truly
    defective (unrecalled) product's failure. Of course, in most cases,
    it's going to cost more to take them to court than the likely
    recovery, so they know that they're seldom going to face such a risk.

    As for whether it's essential to buy certain items through authorized
    channels so as to provide a clear path of warranty proof, it depends
    on your priorities and experience. That's a subjective matter, and
    everyone should make up their own mind about how to address it.
    --
    Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
    Some gardening required to reply via email.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  14. Doug Taylor said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
    folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rid er
    in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
    over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
    rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
    whacked way out of true; Kestrel EM S Pro carbon bar cracked and now
    trash.

    Quoted message said:

    Oh, and I immediately went online and purchased another carbon bar on
    e-bay, though no Kestrels were available.

    Why? This is incomprehensible to me. You experienced an accident of the
    sort that road bicycles must be expected to withstand. Your handlebar
    did not. Either it was defective in manufacture, or the design specs
    were defective. In either case, grounds to eliminate it from
    consideration. Do you really think you will lose ANY speed if you
    switched to a properly constructed aluminum alloy bar?

  15. Werehatrack says...

    Quoted message said:

    As for whether it's essential to buy certain items through authorized
    channels so as to provide a clear path of warranty proof, it depends
    on your priorities and experience. That's a subjective matter, and
    everyone should make up their own mind about how to address it.

    In other words, the money saved could be much greater than the
    occasional rare warranty failure.

  16. 41 said:


    Doug Taylor said:
    Quoted message said:

    > So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
    > folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rid er
    > in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
    > over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
    > rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
    > whacked way out of true; Kestrel EM S Pro carbon bar cracked and now
    > trash.

    Quoted message said:

    Oh, and I immediately went online and purchased another carbon bar on
    e-bay, though no Kestrels were available.

    Why? This is incomprehensible to me. You experienced an accident of the
    sort that road bicycles must be expected to withstand. Your handlebar
    did not. Either it was defective in manufacture, or the design specs
    were defective. In either case, grounds to eliminate it from
    consideration. Do you really think you will lose ANY speed if you
    switched to a properly constructed aluminum alloy bar?

    Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I've had a carbon bar
    on my mountain bike for 4 or 5 years and carbon bar on my other road
    bike for 3 years with absolutely no mishaps. What is incomprehensible
    to me is your conclusion that a single instance of a carbon bar
    failure is a condemnation of all carbon bars.

  17. Doug Taylor said:
    41 said:


    Doug Taylor said:

    >> So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
    >> folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rid er
    >> in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
    >> over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
    >> rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
    >> whacked way out of true; Kestrel EM S Pro carbon bar cracked and now
    >> trash.

    Quoted message said:

    Oh, and I immediately went online and purchased another carbon bar on
    e-bay, though no Kestrels were available.

    Why? This is incomprehensible to me. You experienced an accident of the
    sort that road bicycles must be expected to withstand. Your handlebar
    did not. Either it was defective in manufacture, or the design specs
    were defective. In either case, grounds to eliminate it from
    consideratio n. Do you really think you will lose ANY speed if you
    switched to a properly constructed aluminum alloy bar?

    Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I've had a carbon bar
    on my mountain bike for 4 or 5 years and carbon bar on my other road
    bike for 3 years with absolutely no mishaps. What is incomprehensible
    to me is your conclusion that a single instance of a carbon bar
    failure is a condemnation of all carbon bars.

    It wasn't clear to me whether you were looking to buy another Kestrel,
    or merely noting that they were not there, perhaps suggesting that
    others had a similar experience. Suppose you were looking for another
    Kestrel: then the point is that either their design or manufacture was
    defective. Suppose you were looking for another carbon bar, but not
    another Kestrel: then the point is, do you really think you will lose
    ANY speed if you switched to a good aluminum bar, like a Nitto? You
    can't know if the new carbon bar you bought is properly designed and
    built until it fails or you retire it. You can know at purchase that a
    Nitto or comparable will be, because the specs are proven and you can
    inspect for defects.

  18. 41 said:

    Doug Taylor wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I've had a carbon bar
    on my mountain bike for 4 or 5 years and carbon bar on my other road
    bike for 3 years with absolutely no mishaps. What is incomprehensible
    to me is your conclusion that a single instance of a carbon bar
    failure is a condemnation of all carbon bar s.

    It wasn't clear to me whether you were looking to buy another Kestrel,
    or merely noting that they were not there, perhaps suggesting that
    others had a similar experience. Suppose you were looking for another
    Kestrel: then the point is that e ither their design or manufacture was
    defective. Suppose you were looking for another carbon bar, but not
    another Kestrel: then the point is, do you really think you will lose
    ANY speed if you switched to a good aluminum bar, like a Nitto? You
    can't know if the new carbon bar you bought is properly designed and
    built until it fails or you retire it. You can know at purchase that a
    Nitto or comparable will be, because the specs are proven and you can
    inspect for defects.

    Just to amplify what I wrote: use of two exemplars for 3-5 years is no
    proof of concept, although for today's engineers it seems to be
    considered so. Standard aluminum bars have been used by millions over
    more than half a century. That concept is proven. It has NO substantive
    disadvantages.

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