Poor engineering on Zipp wheels

On 8 Sep 2006 02:59:26 -0700, "Johan Bornman" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Last month I had the opportunity to build 12 Zipp wheels and repair two
others with broken spokes.

How new/old were the rims?

JT

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Johan Bornman said:

Last month I had the opportunity to build 12 Zipp wheels and repair two
others with broken spokes.

I have come to the conclusion that the design and manufacture of these
rims are below standard. Here's my reasons:

1) Almost one in every three spokes holes are drilled at the wrong
angle. Therefore the spokes and nipples don't line up propery, making
tensioning extremely difficult and just about gauranteeing spoke
breakage at very low mileage. I'm not talking about left-spoke
right-spoke angles, but hub-to-rim angles when viewed from the side.

Even though I bend the spokes with a pair of pliers to enter the
nipples at a better angle, under tension this bend disappears. This is
clearly evident from the nipple hole which is forced into an oval shape
once the spoke is tensioned. As you turn the nipple, the oval moves
around to accommodate the spoke angle in the nipple's new position. All
the spoke breakages I've seen correspond with the nipple entry point
into the nipple. Something else that confirms the poor angle as the
cause of the breakage, is the fact that the spoke breaks off in the
round shaft, a millimeter or so before the first tread - the latter
usually being the weakest point.

2) The deflated but partially attached bladder that remains inside
the carbon rim after manufacture causes further nipple/spoke alignment
problems. I haven't had the opportunity to saw one of these rims open,
but I'm convinced that removing all bladder remains around the holes
with improve things a lot, not to mention making fitting nipples
easier.

I feel that the reliability of these wheels can be vastly improved by
improving the spoke/nipple alignment. Obviously a dozen or so more
spokes per wheel will also help, but I've come to realise that people
want what they want and someone will fill that demand.

Oh yes, I also wish Zipp would redesign those lethal and razor-sharp
stickers on the hub. They're like a trap, just waiting for some skin to
sink into.

JB

I guess if you are just starting to work on Zipp rims you will see
these problems we have seen for years...another biz on our 'death
list'...wondering how they stay afloat.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Johan Bornman said:

Last month I had the opportunity to build 12 Zipp wheels and repair two
others with broken spokes.

I have come to the conclusion that the design and manufacture of these
rims are below standard. Here's my reasons:

1) Almost one in every three spokes holes are drilled at the wrong
angle. Therefore the spokes and nipples don't line up propery, making
tensioning extremely difficult and just about gauranteeing spoke
breakage at very low mileage. I'm not talking about left-spoke
right-spoke angles, but hub-to-rim angles when viewed from the side.

Even though I bend the spokes with a pair of pliers to enter the
nipples at a better angle, under tension this bend disappears. This is
clearly evident from the nipple hole which is forced into an oval shape
once the spoke is tensioned. As you turn the nipple, the oval moves
around to accommodate the spoke angle in the nipple's new position. All
the spoke breakages I've seen correspond with the nipple entry point
into the nipple. Something else that confirms the poor angle as the
cause of the breakage, is the fact that the spoke breaks off in the
round shaft, a millimeter or so before the first tread - the latter
usually being the weakest point.

2) The deflated but partially attached bladder that remains inside
the carbon rim after manufacture causes further nipple/spoke alignment
problems. I haven't had the opportunity to saw one of these rims open,
but I'm convinced that removing all bladder remains around the holes
with improve things a lot, not to mention making fitting nipples
easier.

I feel that the reliability of these wheels can be vastly improved by
improving the spoke/nipple alignment. Obviously a dozen or so more
spokes per wheel will also help, but I've come to realise that people
want what they want and someone will fill that demand.

Oh yes, I also wish Zipp would redesign those lethal and razor-sharp
stickers on the hub. They're like a trap, just waiting for some skin to
sink into.

JB

I guess if you are just starting to work on Zipp rims you will see
these problems we have seen for years...another biz on our 'death
list'...wondering how they stay afloat.

Hype and a gullible public. Oh, and big profit margins.

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 8 Sep 2006 02:59:26 -0700, "Johan Bornman" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Last month I had the opportunity to build 12 Zipp wheels and repair two
others with broken spokes.

How new/old were the rims?

Happen to be new, except for the two repair ones which were probably
less than a year old. But I don't see what their age has to do with it,
unless Zipp has mended its ways and bought a new drill jig.

JB

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

I guess if you are just starting to work on Zipp rims you will see
these problems we have seen for years...another biz on our 'death
list'...wondering how they stay afloat.

Peter, are you saying you've also noticed the badly drilled holes?

JB

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

...another biz on our 'death
list'...wondering how they stay afloat.

Hype and a gullible public. Oh, and big profit margins.

Yeah, but can't you just enjoy the show without whining? Here's how it
works;

1: Bicycle Co pays large sums to pro riders to use and endorse their
product
2: Pro rider remits some of the money to a bent pharmacist
3: Doped rider does fabulous ride
4: Amateur competitive cyclist sees fabulous ride and thinks it's due
to Bicycle Co's product
5: Amateur competitive cyclist buys product at inflated price
6: Bicycle Co has spare cash to sponsor pro riders
7: Rinse and repeat

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Kinky Cowboy, I like the way you think!

Quoted message said:

Kinky Cowboy, I like the way you think!

POTW

Kinky Cowboy said:

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

...another biz on our 'death
list'...wondering how they stay afloat.

Hype and a gullible public. Oh, and big profit margins.

Yeah, but can't you just enjoy the show without whining? Here's how it
works;

1: Bicycle Co pays large sums to pro riders to use and endorse their
product
2: Pro rider remits some of the money to a bent pharmacist
3: Doped rider does fabulous ride
4: Amateur competitive cyclist sees fabulous ride and thinks it's due
to Bicycle Co's product
5: Amateur competitive cyclist buys product at inflated price
6: Bicycle Co has spare cash to sponsor pro riders
7: Rinse and repeat

I think you need to change your #4 to something like

"Amateur competitive cyclist sees fabulous ride and thinks Bicycle Co's
product looks cool and amateur cyclist wants to look cool too."

I think anyone buying Zipp wheels has ridden a bike a little bit.
First time bike buyers and riders don't get Zipp wheels. And anyone
who has ridden a bike for 50-75-100 miles knows its the rider that
makes the bike go. Its hard to BS and pretend during the ride. You
can draft to overcome some deficiency, but even that won't work when
the road goes up. Or the miles accumulate.

Quoted message said:

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Quoted message said:

Kinky Cowboy said:

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>
> ...another biz on our 'death
> list'...wondering how they stay afloat.

Hype and a gullible public. Oh, and big profit margins.

Yeah, but can't you just enjoy the show without whining? Here's how it
works;

1: Bicycle Co pays large sums to pro riders to use and endorse their
product
2: Pro rider remits some of the money to a bent pharmacist
3: Doped rider does fabulous ride
4: Amateur competitive cyclist sees fabulous ride and thinks it's due
to Bicycle Co's product
5: Amateur competitive cyclist buys product at inflated price
6: Bicycle Co has spare cash to sponsor pro riders
7: Rinse and repeat

I think you need to change your #4 to something like

"Amateur competitive cyclist sees fabulous ride and thinks Bicycle Co's
product looks cool and amateur cyclist wants to look cool too."

I don't agree; nobody I've ever spoken to has said they bought a
Bicycle Co product because it would look, or make them look, cool. It
was always that Bicycle Co's product was lighter/stiffer/more aero
than what they already had, and that this would make them _faster_

Looking cool might work if you're trying to sell Colnagos to
commuters, but if you're selling to competitive cyclists you have to
make them believe the product will make them faster.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:02:26 +0100, Kinky Cowboy <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Kinky Cowboy said:

On 8 Sep 2006 06:29:47 -0700, [email hidden] wrote:

>
>Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>>
>> ...another biz on our 'death
>> list'...wondering how they stay afloat.
>
>Hype and a gullible public. Oh, and big profit margins.

Yeah, but can't you just enjoy the show without whining? Here's how it
works;

1: Bicycle Co pays large sums to pro riders to use and endorse their
product
2: Pro rider remits some of the money to a bent pharmacist
3: Doped rider does fabulous ride
4: Amateur competitive cyclist sees fabulous ride and thinks it's due
to Bicycle Co's product
5: Amateur competitive cyclist buys product at inflated price
6: Bicycle Co has spare cash to sponsor pro riders
7: Rinse and repeat

I think you need to change your #4 to something like

"Amateur competitive cyclist sees fabulous ride and thinks Bicycle Co's
product looks cool and amateur cyclist wants to look cool too."

I don't agree; nobody I've ever spoken to has said they bought a
Bicycle Co product because it would look, or make them look, cool. It
was always that Bicycle Co's product was lighter/stiffer/more aero
than what they already had, and that this would make them _faster_

Looking cool might work if you're trying to sell Colnagos to
commuters, but if you're selling to competitive cyclists you have to
make them believe the product will make them faster.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

If you're going faster, well... that is looking pretty cool.

Of course, jerseys are different, no one buys those to look cool
because they can't make you faster.

BTW, it's amazing how many Gerlosteiner, RaboBank, Davitoman-Lotto,
etc., teams train right here on my bike trail out in Podunk. Man,
those guys really put on the weight in the off season.

On 8 Sep 2006 07:32:17 -0700, "Johan Bornman" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 8 Sep 2006 02:59:26 -0700, "Johan Bornman" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Last month I had the opportunity to build 12 Zipp wheels and repair two
others with broken spokes.

How new/old were the rims?

Happen to be new, except for the two repair ones which were probably
less than a year old. But I don't see what their age has to do with it,
unless Zipp has mended its ways and bought a new drill jig.

Early Zzip rims had no offset at all to the spoke holes -- they came
straight out. Newer ones go from side to side.

The newer ones have worked great for me -- light, very aero and I
think very strong. I had some older ones that also worked well up
front (strong, light, aero), but not so well in back due to the
straight spoke holes. And the braking wasn't so good -- kind of
grabby.

JT
--
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Kinky Cowboy said:

was always that Bicycle Co's product was lighter/stiffer/more aero
than what they already had, and that this would make them _faster_

Somewhere in there you should mention that in independant testing the
Zipp rims are shown to be the most aerodynamic ones you can get. I
mean... all the manufacturers play the hype... but Zipp actually
delivers on some counts.

Johan Bornman said:

Last month I had the opportunity to build 12 Zipp wheels and repair
two others with broken spokes.

I have come to the conclusion that the design and manufacture of these
rims are below standard. Here's my reasons:

1) Almost one in every three spokes holes are drilled at the wrong
angle. Therefore the spokes and nipples don't line up propery, making
tensioning extremely difficult and just about gauranteeing spoke
breakage at very low mileage. I'm not talking about left-spoke
right-spoke angles, but hub-to-rim angles when viewed from the side.

Even though I bend the spokes with a pair of pliers to enter the
nipples at a better angle, under tension this bend disappears. This is
clearly evident from the nipple hole which is forced into an oval
shape once the spoke is tensioned. As you turn the nipple, the oval
moves around to accommodate the spoke angle in the nipple's new
position. All the spoke breakages I've seen correspond with the
nipple entry point into the nipple. Something else that confirms the
poor angle as the cause of the breakage, is the fact that the spoke
breaks off in the round shaft, a millimeter or so before the first
tread - the latter usually being the weakest point.

2) The deflated but partially attached bladder that remains inside
the carbon rim after manufacture causes further nipple/spoke alignment
problems. I haven't had the opportunity to saw one of these rims open,
but I'm convinced that removing all bladder remains around the holes
with improve things a lot, not to mention making fitting nipples
easier.

I feel that the reliability of these wheels can be vastly improved by
improving the spoke/nipple alignment. Obviously a dozen or so more
spokes per wheel will also help, but I've come to realise that people
want what they want and someone will fill that demand.

Oh yes, I also wish Zipp would redesign those lethal and razor-sharp
stickers on the hub. They're like a trap, just waiting for some skin
to sink into.

JB

Not to mention cracking carbon rims...
--
Phil Lee, Squid

"Of course, jerseys are different, no one buys those to look cool
because they can't make you faster."

I sure am glad I grew up as a wannabee racer in Berzerkeley, where
nobody would be caught dead wearing any team jersey unless they
actually rode for that team (although it was OK to wear a bicycle
manufacturer's wool jersey, since that's what they sold at the LBS).
Even today I find a plain white T-shirt de rigueur, since no team seems
to want me. It might have something to do with the fact that I get
dropped by the pack immediately, but I'm not sure.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

"Of course, jerseys are different, no one buys those to look cool
because they can't make you faster."

I sure am glad I grew up as a wannabee racer in Berzerkeley, where
nobody would be caught dead wearing any team jersey unless they
actually rode for that team (although it was OK to wear a bicycle
manufacturer's wool jersey, since that's what they sold at the LBS).
Even today I find a plain white T-shirt de rigueur, since no team seems
to want me. It might have something to do with the fact that I get
dropped by the pack immediately, but I'm not sure.

I tend to have the same aesthetic (except, ahem, that I race with a
club), but there is a large and growing supply of novelty jersey designs
out there.

Locally, a popular one makes you look like a beer bottle,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Johan Bornman said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

I guess if you are just starting to work on Zipp rims you will see
these problems we have seen for years...another biz on our 'death
list'...wondering how they stay afloat.

Peter, are you saying you've also noticed the badly drilled holes?

JB

Yes and also how, after they removed the aluminum 'strip' just inside
the rim, for the nipples, they reduced the max tension by
20%..so...either the wheel doesn't stay true or you pull eyelets
out..PLUS crappy hubs but most wheelsouttaabox have crappy hubs...