Pool chemistry predicament

"Mr. Land" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am confused about pH and TA (Total Alkalinity) and was wondering if someone out there can
explain what's going on.

I had to add quite a bit of soda ash to our inground, vinyl-lined, bromine-sanitized pool this
year to get the pH up to an acceptable reading (around 7.5). After I did that, the TA reading went
through the roof (300, where the suggested reading should be between 80-120.)

I tried adding 1 gal of muriatic acid...this did lower my TA to 270 (still way too high) but also
screwed up my pH (now back down to 6.8).

It is even possible to get these two readings back within acceptable ranges at the same time?

I've never had this problem, but this is what I've read. Since most items that increase pH also
raise TA quite a bit, all you can do is try to concentrate where you put the acid. Suposedly, this
lowers TA more than pH. If you spread the acid evenly around the pool, it lowers pH faster than TA.

When you added the soda ash, did you evenly distribute it or dump it in a single area. Again, if
raising pH was the goal, it should have been evenly distributed around the pool.

How was the TA when the pH was originally low -- about the correct range? Do you use baking soda to
increase TA?

Finally, do you have any idea what the pH is of the bromine that you use? For chlorines, each of the
three common choices has a different pH (Trichlor 3, Dichlor 6, and Cal Hypo 11.5). If bromine is
making things acidic, you may want to look for a variant that is more basic.

--
Mark Kent, WA

"Mr. Land" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello,

I am confused about pH and TA (Total Alkalinity) and was wondering if someone out there can
explain what's going on.

I had to add quite a bit of soda ash to our inground, vinyl-lined, bromine-sanitized pool this
year to get the pH up to an acceptable reading (around 7.5). After I did that, the TA reading went
through the roof (300, where the suggested reading should be between 80-120.)

I've talked to every pool and pool chemical dealer in my area. Their answers and suggestions have
been like snowflakes: no two are the same.

I tried adding 1 gal of muriatic acid...this did lower my TA to 270 (still way too high) but also
screwed up my pH (now back down to 6.8).

It is even possible to get these two readings back within acceptable ranges at the same time?

Thanks in advance for any help/advice/info!

Use a test kit that requires the chlorine to be neutralized for the pH and TA test. Allow chemicals
3 to 4 days to circulate before making adjustments. I've written this before but it's so important
I'll repeat it. Inadequate circulation leaves a huge amount of pool water void of the chemicals you
put in. Timing is very important. Chemicals that don't disperse properly and evenly can be just as
bad as using 2 lbs. of shock in two days instead of 4 pounds of shock in one day. Draw water from
the bottom of your pool by leaving the vac head down there. Take a pH reading after three or four
days. You will see the pH slowly rise to the point your high TA and pH makes sense. At this point
bring a sample in to get it analyzed.

Mr. Land said:

Hello,

I am confused about pH and TA (Total Alkalinity) and was wondering if someone out there can
explain what's going on.

I had to add quite a bit of soda ash to our inground, vinyl-lined, bromine-sanitized pool this
year to get the pH up to an acceptable reading (around 7.5). After I did that, the TA reading went
through the roof (300, where the suggested reading should be between 80-120.)

I had the same problem. Got only part way to solving it before we sold the house. Basically I
drained some of the water and added new water. That helped quite a bit.

It's very frustrating and drove me crazy. One of the reasons I refused to buy a new house with a
pool. (It was too small to do more than a couple of strokes anyway).

Mr. Land said:

It is even possible to get these two readings back within acceptable ranges at the same time?

No. You need to change out the water.

"Mark or Sue" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<sYx9b.471073$uu5.81893@sccrnsc04>...

Quoted message said:

"Mr. Land" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am confused about pH and TA (Total Alkalinity) and was wondering if someone out there can
explain what's going on.

I had to add quite a bit of soda ash to our inground, vinyl-lined, bromine-sanitized pool this
year to get the pH up to an acceptable reading (around 7.5). After I did that, the TA reading
went through the roof (300, where the suggested reading should be between 80-120.)

I tried adding 1 gal of muriatic acid...this did lower my TA to 270 (still way too high) but
also screwed up my pH (now back down to 6.8).

It is even possible to get these two readings back within acceptable ranges at the same time?

I've never had this problem, but this is what I've read. Since most items that increase pH also
raise TA quite a bit, all you can do is try to concentrate where you put the acid. Suposedly,
this lowers TA more than pH. If you spread the acid evenly around the pool, it lowers pH faster
than TA.

Now, that is strange. How could the means of dispersal have any effect on the overall result
of adding a chemical? Any chance you would remember where you read/saw that? I'd love to read
it myself.

Quoted message said:

When you added the soda ash, did you evenly distribute it or dump it in a single area. Again, if
raising pH was the goal, it should have been evenly distributed around the pool.

I evenly distributed it.

Quoted message said:

How was the TA when the pH was originally low -- about the correct range? Do you use baking soda
to increase TA?

The TA was essentially perfect (around 100 ppm) before I did anything to try to raise the pH, which
was about 6.8. I have never used anything at all to raise the TA because I've never wanted to raise
it...until now it has been fine.

Quoted message said:

Finally, do you have any idea what the pH is of the bromine that you use? For chlorines, each of
the three common choices has a different pH (Trichlor 3, Dichlor 6, and Cal Hypo 11.5). If bromine
is making things acidic, you may want to look for a variant that is more basic.

I use bromine tabs in a chem feeder...no idea what their effect on total pH is, but I can find out.

THANKS!

Quoted message said:

"Mr. Land" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello,

I am confused about pH and TA (Total Alkalinity) and was wondering if someone out there can
explain what's going on.

I had to add quite a bit of soda ash to our inground, vinyl-lined, bromine-sanitized pool this
year to get the pH up to an acceptable reading (around 7.5). After I did that, the TA reading
went through the roof (300, where the suggested reading should be between 80-120.)

I've talked to every pool and pool chemical dealer in my area. Their answers and suggestions
have been like snowflakes: no two are the same.

I tried adding 1 gal of muriatic acid...this did lower my TA to 270 (still way too high) but
also screwed up my pH (now back down to 6.8).

It is even possible to get these two readings back within acceptable ranges at the same time?

Thanks in advance for any help/advice/info!

Use a test kit that requires the chlorine to be neutralized for the pH and TA test. Allow
chemicals 3 to 4 days to circulate before making adjustments.

I'm not sure what you mean by "neutralized"...would that be the same as "stabilized"? At any rate,
this is a bromine-sanitized pool. I do wait a few days to take readings.

Quoted message said:

I've written this before but it's so important I'll repeat it. Inadequate circulation leaves a
huge amount of pool water void of the chemicals you put in. Timing is very important. Chemicals
that don't disperse properly and evenly can be just as bad as using 2 lbs. of shock in two days
instead of 4 pounds of shock in one day.

I always put any treatment in the pool early in the day, so the pump will run all day.

Quoted message said:

Draw water from the bottom of your pool by leaving the vac head down there.

We have a drain at the bottom of the deep end, and a vacuum plate with a plug in the
skimmer...combined with a little stop valve in the bottom of the skimmer, this allows the pump to
draw all of its water from the bottom drain only.

Quoted message said:

Take a pH reading after three or four days. You will see the pH slowly rise to the point your high
TA and pH makes sense.

Hmm, if I follow you, you're saying that after 3 or 4 days I will see the effect of my adding the
muriatic acid (which lowered the pH) wear off?

Quoted message said:

At this point bring a sample in to get it analyzed.

Yeah, I would, but I would expect to get different advice depending on where I brought the sample.
That's the crux of my dilemma, another way of stating which would be I can't find a dealer/tester in
my area that I have any confidence in. Suggestions ranged from: "get your pH right and don't worry
about the alkalinity..." to "drain the pool and start over."

Thank you for your advice.

Me <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I had the same problem. Got only part way to solving it before we sold the house. Basically I
drained some of the water and added new water. That helped quite a bit.

It's very frustrating and drove me crazy. One of the reasons I refused to buy a new house with a
pool. (It was too small to do more than a couple of strokes anyway).

Thank you for that reply. Seems like it should be doable though.

Richard J Kinch <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Mr. Land said:

It is even possible to get these two readings back within acceptable ranges at the same time?

No. You need to change out the water.

So, what did I do wrong? I mean, my pH was too low, and I've been inundated with warnings that a
low, acidic pH will cause the vinyl liner to fail prematurely, so I kept a close eye on it. It
always seemed to tend towards acidic pH, and the last time I read it low, I had to add a large
amount of soda ash before it would come back up (and, yes, I waited plenty of time between
readings), and now I've ruined the water? This is nuts!

Thanks very much for your reply.

"Mr. Land" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Mr. Land" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello,

I am confused about pH and TA (Total Alkalinity) and was wondering if someone out there can
explain what's going on.

I had to add quite a bit of soda ash to our inground, vinyl-lined, bromine-sanitized pool this
year to get the pH up to an acceptable reading (around 7.5). After I did that, the TA reading
went through the roof (300, where the suggested reading should be between 80-120.)

I've talked to every pool and pool chemical dealer in my area. Their answers and suggestions
have been like snowflakes: no two are the same.

I tried adding 1 gal of muriatic acid...this did lower my TA to 270 (still way too high) but
also screwed up my pH (now back down to 6.8).

It is even possible to get these two readings back within acceptable ranges at the same time?

Thanks in advance for any help/advice/info!

Use a test kit that requires the chlorine to be neutralized for the pH and TA test. Allow
chemicals 3 to 4 days to circulate before making adjustments.

I'm not sure what you mean by "neutralized"...would that be the same as "stabilized"? At any rate,
this is a bromine-sanitized pool. I do wait a few days to take readings.

Neutalize. Bromine is part chlorine.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've written this before but it's so important I'll repeat it.

Inadequate

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

circulation leaves a huge amount of pool water void of the chemicals you put in. Timing is very
important. Chemicals that don't disperse properly and evenly can be just as bad as using 2 lbs.
of shock in two days instead of 4 pounds of shock in one day.

I always put any treatment in the pool early in the day, so the pump will run all day.

Quoted message said:

Draw water from the bottom of your pool by leaving the vac head down there.

We have a drain at the bottom of the deep end, and a vacuum plate with a plug in the
skimmer...combined with a little stop valve in the bottom of the skimmer, this allows the pump to
draw all of its water from the bottom drain only.

Great!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Take a pH reading after three or four days. You will see the pH slowly rise to the point your
high TA and pH makes sense.

Hmm, if I follow you, you're saying that after 3 or 4 days I will see the effect of my adding the
muriatic acid (which lowered the pH) wear off?

I see you don't trust pool dealers because they each give you different advice. Well, I give you
advice and mine doesn't make sense to you either. You need to see good results first, and then go
back and learn why it worked. You also asked someone to come up with where they saw it say how to
disperse the chemicals, either concentrated in one small area or evenly dispersed. Forget it, just
do it and we'll explain why later.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At this point bring a sample in to get it analyzed.

Quoted message said:

Yeah, I would, but I would expect to get different advice depending on where I brought the sample.
That's the crux of my dilemma, another way of stating which would be I can't find a dealer/tester
in my area that I have any confidence in. Suggestions ranged from: "get your pH right and don't
worry about the alkalinity..." to "drain the pool and start over."

Those suggestions sound good to me. I have an in-law who prides herself for not having to shock her
pool because she keeps her sanitizer level real high. The one feeding her this BS is the same dealer
I go to occasionally. He's not a bad guy. He just finally gave up on her. Her liner went brittle and
was replaced this year after a four week order it and wait. Last I heard she's back doing the same
BS. My in-ground is three times larger than her pool but she uses three times more chemicals than I
do. Mine is sparkling clear everyday. She has seen it. Does it sink in??? Hell no! So, if she had
your problem I'd tell her to drain the pool. Screw it. Different dealers have different attitudes
caused by the customer.

Your problem could be a small crack in one of the underground lines. When the pump is off the crack
allows water to seep out. When the pump turns back on it draws the water back in along with small
amounts of soil. This can cause the pH to read low. Maybe the crack doesn't always seep water out
because the crack fills in sufficiently. How could a crack develop? Freezing is one possibility.
Maybe you added too much calcium thru the skimmer to harden the' water and the calcium clogged and
burned your pipe.

Your problem could be caused by the paint on your patio leaching into the pool. Or fertilizer or
grass clippings, or even a clogged chemical feeder.

I have been where you are now. I use baking soda to raise the pH and I use (I forgot the chemical
name, something hydrogen) to raise the TA without effecting the pH. If I needed to lower the TA I
would use muratic acid (one pint) locally in one small area. I would use a dry ingredient like Low
'n Slow to lower the pH because that stuff can be scattered over the surface. Study up on what TA
actually is and what it's make-up is all about and then you should be able to understand why a
concentration of acid works on the TA and has little effect on the pH.

One more piece of advice before I go. When you first noticed 6.8 pH and a TA of 100 I'm guessing
your pH was actually in range, maybe
7.2 or 7.4. If indeed it was 6.8 that wasn't enough to start tweaking. You have to decide how to
attack a problem by the direction things are headed. I've seen pool water take almost two weeks to
finally show an accurate result from the chemicals added two weeks prior. Tips: My pool is closed
now. I can fertilize my lawn now without having to worry about nitrogen or potassium entering the
water. If I had a mesh cover instead of a solid cover I'd have some severe problems later. I use
the reel that the solar cover was attached to roll up the pool cover. Little by little I'm able to
wash both top and bottom of the cover. When it came time to cover the pool I simply rolled the
cover over it. Dragging a cover over the lawn is not a good idea. The cleaner the cover the
cleaner the water next spring.

Mr. Land said:

I had to add a large amount of soda ash before it would come back up (and, yes, I waited plenty
of time between readings), and now I've ruined the water? This is nuts!

Yes, at some point you have too much stuff dissolved in there, and you need to start over again with
relatively pure water. Otherwise you have this chemical tug-of-war going on that you can never keep
stably balanced.

"Mr. Land" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark or Sue" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<sYx9b.471073$uu5.81893@sccrnsc04>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've never had this problem, but this is what I've read. Since most

items

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that increase pH also raise TA quite a bit, all you can do is try to concentrate where you put
the acid. Suposedly, this lowers TA more than

pH.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you spread the acid evenly around the pool, it lowers pH faster than

TA.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now, that is strange. How could the means of dispersal have any effect on the overall result
of adding a chemical? Any chance you would remember where you read/saw that? I'd love to read
it myself.

I looked in my two books, but didn't find it there. I've gathered info from lots of places and I
keep a pool chemical sumary sheet for when I need to adjust things. I believe the TA gets eaten up
when you have enough acid to do it. Just evenly distributing it won't overcome the TA.

Where you get your water tested, do they do a detailed test that tells you your hardness, TDS,
cyanuric acid, metals, and other things? If not, I'd but some test strips that measure the first
two. If either the hardness or TDS is too high, you may have to drain a lot of water and start
again. This condition is made worse by adding excessive chemicals.

--
Mark Kent, WA